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How young can a child be to have ODD?
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 161120" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Early Intervention is woderful if you can get into it early. </p><p></p><p>Sara, it does sound like something in the ham was the trigger for your son. I was maybe faster off the mark with easy child because a friend of mine went through it with her child first, when he reqacted to her diet while she was breastfeeding. The interesting thing is that for easy child, it was tatrazine that was the culprit but she seems to have finally grown out of it.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that in this case, the child is reacting to something in her diet; only to mention that there can be many possible reeasons all of which need to be checked out. It's not good, especially in such a young child, for her to be struggling with interactions and mood. </p><p></p><p>When difficult child 3 was 9 and a half months we could already see some unusual things - he was obsessed with numbers and letters. He was already using a computer (very basic software) and playing piano (individual notes and simple chords - improvising but melodiously). He made good eye contact but was not talking at all. He wouldalso focus extremely intently on numbers, letters and music so that you could not get his attention away from them. I remember noting this because a cousin of mine was reported to have been like this with music, from infancy - he later became a music prodigy (and, I strongly suspect, was Aspie). </p><p></p><p>The behaviour at the moment may look like ODD but there are sound reasons for this. There are ALWAYS sound reasons, from the point of view of the child.</p><p>An example - I was at a family barbecue watching my toddler niece. She was totally absorbed in picking up clods of earth from ther garden bed and dropping them onto the cement path. She watched as it fell, stood for a few seconds, then picked up another clod of dirt and did the same thing. To me, she seemed to be studying the way the earth fell, trying to learn its pattern. </p><p>Her mother called her to come and have lunch. She didn't respond. Another sister said, "She's being disobedient; deliberately defiant."</p><p>I said, "No, she's concentrating on something; I think she's studying the way the dirt falls and it's more important right this minute than having lunch."</p><p>The second sister said, "Don't be ridiculous! She's a baby - how can she be thinking anything of the sort? No, she's just being naughty, deliberately defiant."</p><p>Luckily, my niece's mother & I are on the same wavelength. She gave her daughter a little time to finish her experiment and then come and have lunch. But to our other sister, the baby seemed defiant. To us, she had her reasons. And as she grew we could see this pattern continuing - she would do something and sit back to observe the reaction. A very scientific mind like her brother - and like me and her mother, which is why I think we understood her.</p><p></p><p>It can be difficult to assess a child as young as this, but you don't have to wait for assessment to begin to work with the child. In "Son Rise" the author describes how he began by being with his child and mimicking his play. His son would spin plates so the dad sat beside him with hisown plate and would spin it. Eventually his son noticed that dad was doing the same thing - and a door began to open between them. The next step was when they could both spin the same plates. But you don't push it - you take it slowly and let the child take the lead in controlling the interactions.</p><p></p><p>She sounds like she is having difficulty understanding the sequence of events - she sees the bottle and screams because it is not already in her mouth. She hasn't yet learned that there are a couple more steps. While at this age a "normal" child still does not have theory of mind, they do begin to have some of the steps that lead towards it, which can include a sequence of steps. </p><p>Something you can do - it won't help now, but it can begin to pave the way - describe aloudwhat you are doing. Use simple phrases, as few words as possible but show her the object and name it, then tell her what you are doing. "Look - bottle. Bottle is cold. We make bottle warm like this. Getting warmer, getting warmer, nearly ready - now to test. [shake bottle drops onto wrist] Is it warm? Yes! Now I bring you your bottle. Here it is!"</p><p></p><p>Do the same thing in play. Talk to her, tell her what is happening. Observe her reaction - it could be interesting.</p><p></p><p>This is what we were told to do with difficult child 3, when he was 3. By this stage howewver, he would reject any play which involved simplified language (I suspect because he felt patronised) but when I moderated my language ("normalised" it) to a level where he would continue to play, then we did better.</p><p></p><p>I do feel a speech pathologist is going to be needed at some stage, to assess her language development. I am referring to language here, as distinct from speech. There is a difference. For example, a parrpt can talk, but does it have language? For that, there needs to be understanding of the meaning of the words being used. We now know that in some parrots, they CAN have understanding of the meaning of words they use; but they learn a word first before the meaning is learned.</p><p>Part of learning language is learning non-verbal language, and also learning behavioural sequences. Her behaviour over her bottle tells me she is not good with understanding the connectedness within a sequence - and a good speech pathologist deals this isues like this.</p><p></p><p>As I indicated in my original post on this thread, the problem in the baby's underdstanding can be as simple as a reaction to something in her environment (as with my daughter's reaction to food colouring). Or it can be part of an underlying disorder. The cause needs to be identified and dealt with, as far as possible, to give the child the best chance to finally begin to understand.</p><p></p><p>In Australia, a pediatrician is the first port of call. For full ujnderstanding and most accurate diagnosis, we also need speech pathologist assessment and a psychologist's report. What is needed will vary in other countries.</p><p></p><p>I'd be talking to the parents and suggesting an assessment. If there is no problem then her behaviour issues need to be dealt with. But if there is, then the sooner it is identified then the sooner she can get some useful help and can begin to progress as she should.</p><p></p><p>Also, it needn't be bad news - the problem could be health-related (such as chronic low-grade tonsillitis) or it could be Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form, which if dealt with, can sometimes allow a child to develop fast and reveal a remarkably high intelligence. No promises - but until you make enquiries, you just can't know.</p><p></p><p>Be prepared for initial resistance from the parents, especially if she's their first - parents hate to have to accept their child is not as perfect as they want to believe.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 161120, member: 1991"] Early Intervention is woderful if you can get into it early. Sara, it does sound like something in the ham was the trigger for your son. I was maybe faster off the mark with easy child because a friend of mine went through it with her child first, when he reqacted to her diet while she was breastfeeding. The interesting thing is that for easy child, it was tatrazine that was the culprit but she seems to have finally grown out of it. I'm not saying that in this case, the child is reacting to something in her diet; only to mention that there can be many possible reeasons all of which need to be checked out. It's not good, especially in such a young child, for her to be struggling with interactions and mood. When difficult child 3 was 9 and a half months we could already see some unusual things - he was obsessed with numbers and letters. He was already using a computer (very basic software) and playing piano (individual notes and simple chords - improvising but melodiously). He made good eye contact but was not talking at all. He wouldalso focus extremely intently on numbers, letters and music so that you could not get his attention away from them. I remember noting this because a cousin of mine was reported to have been like this with music, from infancy - he later became a music prodigy (and, I strongly suspect, was Aspie). The behaviour at the moment may look like ODD but there are sound reasons for this. There are ALWAYS sound reasons, from the point of view of the child. An example - I was at a family barbecue watching my toddler niece. She was totally absorbed in picking up clods of earth from ther garden bed and dropping them onto the cement path. She watched as it fell, stood for a few seconds, then picked up another clod of dirt and did the same thing. To me, she seemed to be studying the way the earth fell, trying to learn its pattern. Her mother called her to come and have lunch. She didn't respond. Another sister said, "She's being disobedient; deliberately defiant." I said, "No, she's concentrating on something; I think she's studying the way the dirt falls and it's more important right this minute than having lunch." The second sister said, "Don't be ridiculous! She's a baby - how can she be thinking anything of the sort? No, she's just being naughty, deliberately defiant." Luckily, my niece's mother & I are on the same wavelength. She gave her daughter a little time to finish her experiment and then come and have lunch. But to our other sister, the baby seemed defiant. To us, she had her reasons. And as she grew we could see this pattern continuing - she would do something and sit back to observe the reaction. A very scientific mind like her brother - and like me and her mother, which is why I think we understood her. It can be difficult to assess a child as young as this, but you don't have to wait for assessment to begin to work with the child. In "Son Rise" the author describes how he began by being with his child and mimicking his play. His son would spin plates so the dad sat beside him with hisown plate and would spin it. Eventually his son noticed that dad was doing the same thing - and a door began to open between them. The next step was when they could both spin the same plates. But you don't push it - you take it slowly and let the child take the lead in controlling the interactions. She sounds like she is having difficulty understanding the sequence of events - she sees the bottle and screams because it is not already in her mouth. She hasn't yet learned that there are a couple more steps. While at this age a "normal" child still does not have theory of mind, they do begin to have some of the steps that lead towards it, which can include a sequence of steps. Something you can do - it won't help now, but it can begin to pave the way - describe aloudwhat you are doing. Use simple phrases, as few words as possible but show her the object and name it, then tell her what you are doing. "Look - bottle. Bottle is cold. We make bottle warm like this. Getting warmer, getting warmer, nearly ready - now to test. [shake bottle drops onto wrist] Is it warm? Yes! Now I bring you your bottle. Here it is!" Do the same thing in play. Talk to her, tell her what is happening. Observe her reaction - it could be interesting. This is what we were told to do with difficult child 3, when he was 3. By this stage howewver, he would reject any play which involved simplified language (I suspect because he felt patronised) but when I moderated my language ("normalised" it) to a level where he would continue to play, then we did better. I do feel a speech pathologist is going to be needed at some stage, to assess her language development. I am referring to language here, as distinct from speech. There is a difference. For example, a parrpt can talk, but does it have language? For that, there needs to be understanding of the meaning of the words being used. We now know that in some parrots, they CAN have understanding of the meaning of words they use; but they learn a word first before the meaning is learned. Part of learning language is learning non-verbal language, and also learning behavioural sequences. Her behaviour over her bottle tells me she is not good with understanding the connectedness within a sequence - and a good speech pathologist deals this isues like this. As I indicated in my original post on this thread, the problem in the baby's underdstanding can be as simple as a reaction to something in her environment (as with my daughter's reaction to food colouring). Or it can be part of an underlying disorder. The cause needs to be identified and dealt with, as far as possible, to give the child the best chance to finally begin to understand. In Australia, a pediatrician is the first port of call. For full ujnderstanding and most accurate diagnosis, we also need speech pathologist assessment and a psychologist's report. What is needed will vary in other countries. I'd be talking to the parents and suggesting an assessment. If there is no problem then her behaviour issues need to be dealt with. But if there is, then the sooner it is identified then the sooner she can get some useful help and can begin to progress as she should. Also, it needn't be bad news - the problem could be health-related (such as chronic low-grade tonsillitis) or it could be Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form, which if dealt with, can sometimes allow a child to develop fast and reveal a remarkably high intelligence. No promises - but until you make enquiries, you just can't know. Be prepared for initial resistance from the parents, especially if she's their first - parents hate to have to accept their child is not as perfect as they want to believe. Marg [/QUOTE]
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