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In a totally new place and need perspective? Cedar? Anyone?
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<blockquote data-quote="Scent of Cedar *" data-source="post: 665378" data-attributes="member: 17461"><p>Copa, there is no wrong side. We are all trying to make sense of how to see and how to feel about what we find and how to respond. Your positions are absolutely valid, Copa. No shame. How could there be? We are trying and it matters and we always need to be very sure we are staying open, staying flexible. Here are other good things I see: I do see flexibility; I see honesty; maturity; respect for each of us and for yourself <em>and for all of our children</em>.</p><p></p><p>We need you, Copa. We have all come together here from all the different ways we have lived our lives, to heal, and to find healing for our kids. </p><p></p><p>We have to be honest.</p><p></p><p>I don't like being called codependent. I don't know that I believe in codependent. Nonetheless, that is how I am seen. I don't like to see parents celebrating freedom from the hellishness it is to love a troubled child. I don't understand it. It could be that, like so many other things have turned out to be, one day I will feel the same.</p><p></p><p>And they don't like that I am not seeing from their positions.</p><p></p><p>But I still say so, anyway because I am seeing from mine and I can only see from mine.</p><p></p><p>It is very, very hard for me not to shelter my children from their choices. I try to remember, every day, that if I do that, the day will come when I reap the whirlwind and worse yet, so will they.</p><p></p><p>So, I stand up. Pretty shaky, most days. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are correct, Copa. Please Copa, know that if the words I have chosen left you feeling uncertain, that was never my intent. I sincerely apologize Copa but more, I wish never to hurt you. </p><p></p><p>I cherish you, Copa. I find your posts intelligent and always worth considering at length.</p><p></p><p>Always.</p><p></p><p>Every post.</p><p></p><p>***</p><p></p><p>The differences a parent faces when a child is nearing forty have to do with needing to acknowledge that what we are doing hasn't helped our children. There are parents of younger children who take actions I would not take, if my children were younger. I don't know how they reach those conclusions, but I do know that sometimes, putting responsibility for his choices squarely on the child works.</p><p></p><p>I do know that if I were to welcome my son and his family home it would be really hard to know where to put them because there would be eight other people already here. That would be daughter and her family.</p><p></p><p>Plus D H and me, except that D H would leave me.</p><p></p><p>That is a true thing.</p><p></p><p>We helped our kids every time. And somehow, they never took the reins of their own lives. And part of that was the ugliness of enabling. Part of enabling is believing the kids need us to bail them out to the point that the kids believe they need us and that they can't make it without us and that they deserve it (haven't we always bailed them out before?) and resent us for it never being enough because it is never enough when drugs are involved. It gets all ugly and naked and it doesn't work. Here is an example. When daughter was mandated into treatment the last time, we paid her credit card ($500 month) just to keep it current; just to protect her credit rating. We paid rent and damages and I don't really know what else through those months. And she left treatment AMA and the things you all know about happened.</p><p></p><p>So her credit rating and everything else, including her children and her life itself were endangered.</p><p></p><p>And she wouldn't stop, Copa.</p><p></p><p>And when she was homeless and refused to come home, D H saw to it that she had money, every week...and we learned she was being beat for the money.</p><p></p><p>And it just goes on like that, Copa, when the kids are near forty.</p><p></p><p>They are adults. They need to see themselves as adults, or they will never, ever be strong enough, or believe in themselves enough, to come through their situations.</p><p></p><p>It was from that perspective Copa, from the perspective of the parent of two troubled kids both nearing forty that I posted to that mother of a son, nearing forty. The hardest thing is to stop helping, Copa. It tears us apart, and we literally cannot do it alone. Again, I wonder where the parents of younger children, or where parents who feel justified in turning away from their children at any age ~ I don't know how they do that.</p><p></p><p>But I think I know that is what must happen, for a child nearing forty. It isn't a reclamation of my own life as it is a ~ I don't know. Like, a parental directive that the kids reclaim theirs; that reclamation is the right thing, is the best thing for them.</p><p></p><p>We have to reclaim our legitimacy before we can require the kids to reclaim theirs. Our languaging is the first step in that requirement that our children rewrite who we are in their minds. Unless they respect us ~ though they may never come through it, though they may never come to admire us for it ~ they cannot respect themselves. </p><p></p><p>That is where it begins, for a verbally abusive son nearing forty.</p><p></p><p>Respect for his mother, and for his father or at the least, with his understanding that his parents will tolerate nothing less.</p><p></p><p>It's an important piece I think Copa, for a verbally abusive child to hear.</p><p></p><p>It isn't our kids who are speaking to us this way, Copa. It is their addictions. It is that their addictions have shredded integrity, empathy, compassion, maybe even the capacity to love.</p><p></p><p>For those of us with troubled forty year olds, these last desperate measures are the only things left to us, and even, to our kids. It begins, because it is the only thing, the only lever we have, with demanding respect. With forcing the kids to hear what we say and who we are <em>and who they have allowed themselves to become.</em></p><p></p><p>They weren't raised to think of us <em>or of themselves </em>in the ways that they do, Copa. The parent of a forty year old has to pull that out of them. "We hope to have relationship with you too. When you have learned; when you have changed. Do this for me. Do this for you. See where you are and understand you were raised better. You are better than this." In essence, "I believe in you."</p><p></p><p>There is no way you could know, Copa. Your child is not forty. He is young, he is ill, he is hurting and so are you. We must always do what is in our hearts to do because we must meet our own eyes in the mirror and the consequences of addiction cut both ways.</p><p></p><p>I feel badly that you felt badly. I admire your requiring clarification, both for yourself, and for me.</p><p></p><p>I feel like, important.</p><p></p><p>Thank you, Copabanana.</p><p></p><p>Cedar</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scent of Cedar *, post: 665378, member: 17461"] Copa, there is no wrong side. We are all trying to make sense of how to see and how to feel about what we find and how to respond. Your positions are absolutely valid, Copa. No shame. How could there be? We are trying and it matters and we always need to be very sure we are staying open, staying flexible. Here are other good things I see: I do see flexibility; I see honesty; maturity; respect for each of us and for yourself [I]and for all of our children[/I]. We need you, Copa. We have all come together here from all the different ways we have lived our lives, to heal, and to find healing for our kids. We have to be honest. I don't like being called codependent. I don't know that I believe in codependent. Nonetheless, that is how I am seen. I don't like to see parents celebrating freedom from the hellishness it is to love a troubled child. I don't understand it. It could be that, like so many other things have turned out to be, one day I will feel the same. And they don't like that I am not seeing from their positions. But I still say so, anyway because I am seeing from mine and I can only see from mine. It is very, very hard for me not to shelter my children from their choices. I try to remember, every day, that if I do that, the day will come when I reap the whirlwind and worse yet, so will they. So, I stand up. Pretty shaky, most days. You are correct, Copa. Please Copa, know that if the words I have chosen left you feeling uncertain, that was never my intent. I sincerely apologize Copa but more, I wish never to hurt you. I cherish you, Copa. I find your posts intelligent and always worth considering at length. Always. Every post. *** The differences a parent faces when a child is nearing forty have to do with needing to acknowledge that what we are doing hasn't helped our children. There are parents of younger children who take actions I would not take, if my children were younger. I don't know how they reach those conclusions, but I do know that sometimes, putting responsibility for his choices squarely on the child works. I do know that if I were to welcome my son and his family home it would be really hard to know where to put them because there would be eight other people already here. That would be daughter and her family. Plus D H and me, except that D H would leave me. That is a true thing. We helped our kids every time. And somehow, they never took the reins of their own lives. And part of that was the ugliness of enabling. Part of enabling is believing the kids need us to bail them out to the point that the kids believe they need us and that they can't make it without us and that they deserve it (haven't we always bailed them out before?) and resent us for it never being enough because it is never enough when drugs are involved. It gets all ugly and naked and it doesn't work. Here is an example. When daughter was mandated into treatment the last time, we paid her credit card ($500 month) just to keep it current; just to protect her credit rating. We paid rent and damages and I don't really know what else through those months. And she left treatment AMA and the things you all know about happened. So her credit rating and everything else, including her children and her life itself were endangered. And she wouldn't stop, Copa. And when she was homeless and refused to come home, D H saw to it that she had money, every week...and we learned she was being beat for the money. And it just goes on like that, Copa, when the kids are near forty. They are adults. They need to see themselves as adults, or they will never, ever be strong enough, or believe in themselves enough, to come through their situations. It was from that perspective Copa, from the perspective of the parent of two troubled kids both nearing forty that I posted to that mother of a son, nearing forty. The hardest thing is to stop helping, Copa. It tears us apart, and we literally cannot do it alone. Again, I wonder where the parents of younger children, or where parents who feel justified in turning away from their children at any age ~ I don't know how they do that. But I think I know that is what must happen, for a child nearing forty. It isn't a reclamation of my own life as it is a ~ I don't know. Like, a parental directive that the kids reclaim theirs; that reclamation is the right thing, is the best thing for them. We have to reclaim our legitimacy before we can require the kids to reclaim theirs. Our languaging is the first step in that requirement that our children rewrite who we are in their minds. Unless they respect us ~ though they may never come through it, though they may never come to admire us for it ~ they cannot respect themselves. That is where it begins, for a verbally abusive son nearing forty. Respect for his mother, and for his father or at the least, with his understanding that his parents will tolerate nothing less. It's an important piece I think Copa, for a verbally abusive child to hear. It isn't our kids who are speaking to us this way, Copa. It is their addictions. It is that their addictions have shredded integrity, empathy, compassion, maybe even the capacity to love. For those of us with troubled forty year olds, these last desperate measures are the only things left to us, and even, to our kids. It begins, because it is the only thing, the only lever we have, with demanding respect. With forcing the kids to hear what we say and who we are [I]and who they have allowed themselves to become.[/I] They weren't raised to think of us [I]or of themselves [/I]in the ways that they do, Copa. The parent of a forty year old has to pull that out of them. "We hope to have relationship with you too. When you have learned; when you have changed. Do this for me. Do this for you. See where you are and understand you were raised better. You are better than this." In essence, "I believe in you." There is no way you could know, Copa. Your child is not forty. He is young, he is ill, he is hurting and so are you. We must always do what is in our hearts to do because we must meet our own eyes in the mirror and the consequences of addiction cut both ways. I feel badly that you felt badly. I admire your requiring clarification, both for yourself, and for me. I feel like, important. Thank you, Copabanana. Cedar [/QUOTE]
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