In a totally new place and need perspective? Cedar? Anyone?

Discussion in 'Family of Origin' started by SomewhereOutThere, Aug 13, 2015.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I am awake at 4am, my normal time to get up before I nap before work...haha...for maybe an hour. I"m making fresh Starbucks Blonde coffee, my favorite. And I am contemplating.

    Cedar, Copa you are both so smart. I would really appreciate it if you could give me feedback, if you have any. Anyone can. Maybe nobody can. But I feel a need to post my thoughts because I'm on the cusp of moving on, yet I'm being held back and I want to get rid of the last string of attachment so I can really, really be free of my past and embrace the present.

    My latest family of origin experience has made me long does this need to go on? This is not a bad post about my sister. I just need to mention that she was told by her forum she was suspended for trying to hurt me and that, on another site, apparently I am trying to hurt her and that this is not compatible for healing. They suspended her account. Of course, unlike here, there is nothing else to talk helping people with difficult children or joking on a Watercooler so her site is strictly where people talk about their person they believe is Borderline (BPD) (or maybe just want to hurt). But I don't want to assume that is her only motive, even if it is.

    Since others have noticed it, I have had a lack of desire to hurt HER, even if I am doing it to heal myself and to explain my feelings and experiences that involve her. I don't believe she is still reading this, but I don't know for sure. I want to put a stop to my part in this, if she is reading this. I think I have spent enough time talking about how my family has hurt mother (who is dead so is not exempt from more), my brother and my sister. They will think what they think and do not understand my very real challenges and have decided to call them borderline. If only it were that simple. There is help for borderline, you can work in a high level job with borderline; there is therapy for issues are so different and far more complicated from that. It is pointless to argue apples and oranges.

    And these days I am content and happy and learning to meditate and smell the roses and let go.

    I have a shirt that reads "Keep Calm and Walk the Dog." Today, after finding out she was suspended, I did just that and thought a lot about why I would fuel her angst, if indeed I have that power. I don't want to have that power. Maybe she does read. Maybe I do hurt her because maybe she hates me but she loves me too. I understand those mixed up feelings. I don't understand her anymore than she understands me. I don't understand my brother and how he can overlook some things and fixate on others. I don't understand my entire FOO.

    My sister thinks I targeted my mother when she was alive. For abuse.

    I actually had little to do with her and feel strongly that incidents like t he $5000 were her abusing me and, if I had t he stomach, would perhaps ask for one incident when I abused my mother. No incidents are ever cited. In this I am certain. She was the abuser. And I did not abuse her. We had verbal fights, but she was never hurt by me physically, financially or in any significant way. Maybe her feelings were hurt after a fight, but so were mine. Checkmate. I can't think of one time I ever abused her and my memories of her after my late 30's are almost non-existent except for the $5000 and my calls to her, which were not met with happiness (but they were not mean calls by any means. We did not fight.) She just never called me back or acknowledged my children. Then she died. She has been dead ten years. It's time to let her go and I've been doing that. I don't want to still keep her memory burning within me because our relationship was not good.
    These postings really helped me kind of let go of her. I got it all out of my system. It is done. I am not the only person on earth who had a mother who didn't love her and I wish to perhaps have a second symbolic funeral for her since I was not much in the present during the first one. I was not mourning her. I was feeling sorry for the people who truly mourned her and giving hugs. I was not focused on her demise because, in my life, although I tried to call and talk to her, she wasn't present there and neither was I. She had really died in my life long before she died.

    I think that when I have this symbolic funeral, I need to include my entire FOO on my mother's side and I consider my siblings on her side of the family. Everything has been said. I am now old enough that nobody can hurt me anymore unless I let them back into my life and that won't happen. Either on their part or on my part or on both parts, hey will never be back. I need no contact...forever. It's sad, but nothing can change that.

    I am trying to think of a ceremony I can have that is not degrading to them or to me...or hateful. Just a "good-bye. I know you're gone." I want to do it alone, in nature, maybe by water. I want to have words to say to those who are "deceased" in my life. I'm ok with crying a little. Nobody will be there. I need to find the perfect place. Maybe I will ask husband to go with me, but I'm thinking that he did not know them. I have been married now for twenty years and he barely knows them...that is at least how long they have been out of my life, except for my sister's on again/off again and he doesn't know her either.

    So I need a perfect, sunny day in a perfect place with perhaps a bench and many trees and water. It has to be healing. I have to be done. I want to let go of the emotional triggers and just let me be me and do what I do people. I will certainly stay on this forum to help other hurting mothers, as so many helped me.

    I know the reason I am here.

    I have a clear picture of w hat my real challenges are and they can't be summed up in one word, but they have made me a far more feeling, emotional and compassionate person t han Iwould have been if I had not had them. So I want to thank them for making me a better person.

    I can combine this into one ceremony.

    Cedar, you have been here from the first. I would love to read your input. There is nothing you don't know about me between this and our private talks. I want to purge any remaining dislike out of me and turn it into compassion for those who were unkind to me because they truly, truly never understood and without their understanding, they don't know who I am; why I am. It is not anyone's fault except you were willing to listen and believe what I've been told and they were not.

    Because there will never be acknowledgement there, I would rather say a kind good-bye rather than feel frustrated that they do not understand...and then move on. If I have any further issues I'd prefer to do it in private, if that is ok.

    I can still give feedback!!! Trust me, I started my journey long ago so I've walked this path for a long time. It is starting to all come together now.

    Cedar, when you have the time, either here or in PM, I would so greatly appreciate your exceptional wisdom on my ideas and where you feel a ceremony could take place or if you even feel a ceremony will lay the demons to rest. Copa, I value your opinion too. You came here later, but you know enough to give good feedback so I welcome your feedback too. Insane? I always love your Confused, are you still around?

    You are all so dear to me. I have learned to accept myself and to reject the opinions of unknowing others by being here with all of you. My kids have grown since I came here. Sonic was nine or so. I came here first becaue he had a wrongful bipolar diagnosis. My wonderful family has grown up under this site's tender loving care. I will have to add a heartfelt thank you to this forum during my ceremony...and all my mentors.

    Again, I am NOT leaving. I am simply trying to bury my demons, but I am right here for anyone who wants to talk on any of these forums.

    I would like to put an ending to this part of my life, late though it is in coming, to the ability that I can.

    To end on a happy note, tomorrow I'm taking off work, as is my awesome husband, and we are driving down to see Buddha Baby and Princess and nothing makes me fill with joy more than seeing the next generation in my arms; my beautiful daughter's little one who looks so like her and is such a happy little girl. My heart soars to see her father and mother w ith her. I watched them both grow up. It is most amazing to me to see how her father loves on her...I am a big believer that having a loving father, a daddy's girl, is so impportant for a little girl and she loves her daddy. I have seen my daughters once contentious relationship with SO grow and bloom these past years and am so happy that SO has a job t hat allows Princess to stay home with her little munchkin. That little girl will never know a daycare.To me, that is a good thhing. She is so sure she is loved. So eager to smile at strangers. So sure s he will be treated well.

    None of us had that. Even as a little girl, I was shy and expected to be knocked down by my little peers.

    My BB will not feel she has no backup. Even if she gets teased, and I don't think she has that sort of personality, she will always know her daddy and mommy and grandpa and grandmothers love her.

    That is such a gift. Unconditional love. Breathe in those words. Many people don't have it. It is a gift from God.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  2. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    Beautiful post, Serenity.

    The ceremony will be perfect. It seems more a celebration of completion, of overflowing heart and gratitude than Memorial. Something beautiful, some way to mark the time. We all have accomplished so much in these months. How can it be true that each is ready to move on and yet, we are.

    We did it.


    I have that sense of closure, of completion, of moving on, too. Copa will be off to New Orleans and on to other adventures and I expect we will see great things from her as she begins to work again.

    We will watch for her.

    I will begin writing. If anything good happens? I will post something for us, here.

    It's so strange that you should have posted as you have, Serenity.

    Before I came on this morning, I had just been thinking, not so much of leaving the site ~ probably I will never do that altogether, you all mean too much to me ~ but that I should begin to add things to my life. Music, mostly. That I could have been threading music through the hours we have spent here, and then I would know more music.

    All the things there are for me to know.

    Funny little things like that, I have been thinking. Things to do with efficiency, and with discipline. And even with presence, I suppose.
    And ballet again. Old as I am, I am thinking about that, at least the basics of it ~ barre and posture and the strength and grace of it.

    We've accomplished something very special, the three of us.

    I was thinking about your sister, Serenity. Could it be that she will come to see things differently, too? She must have been writing some terrible things, for the moderators there to have suspended her. My sister seems focused on me in that same hateful way that yours is; Copa's, too. It must have something to do with the ways we all were hurt, when we were little girls. I hope your sister can come through this...D H says I will always have to be wary of FOO and especially, of my sister. I wish they did not feel as they do, our sisters. But like we've all said a million times, it is better for us to know. We are less vulnerable to them, and to the hurtful ways they see us, now.

    I am so happy for you, that you received validation regarding the intense toxicity in the way your sister seems determined to see you. I can never believe it about mine, either. It seems to be true alright, though. Just think. We probably never would have believed what we know now about ourselves and about our families and about how to heal so much of it without this site.

    Isn't that an amazing thing.

    I will still be around, of course I will, but I do want to thank you both, Serenity and Copa. IC, nerfherder, pasa, Confused.

    I wonder how you are doing, Confused.

    We would like to know, Copa and Serenity and I.

    Will you post about the Ceremony for us here, Serenity?

  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Cedar. I'm going to start writing again too, perhaps a different genre. I've made some money writing romantica in the past (the hot, hot stuff with a story) and gotten some good reviews too. Working makes it hard to find the time (and interest). My close friend has just published a lot of her older books, updating them, and could make a really good buck as the publishers are good sellers a nd she's such a gifted writer.

    Cedar, I made a mistake years ago that I explained. I told my mother my sist'er secrets. I was maybe 20 at the time. I was a mess. I did not understand you don't tell secrets.
    "There are no secrets in families." My grandmother. And I heard my mother blabbing everything we all did to my grandmother all the time. What did I know? And, still, my intention was not to make my mommy think she was a bad girl, although she certainly did get into her share of stuff. Well, who wouldn't when you are ignored as a child?

    But mostly this is why I did it: My mother had been abusing my sister and neglecting her for a boyfriend and I wanted her to k now what her lack of interest in my sister was doing to her. My sister does not and will not ever believe that this was my main motive. She will forever think it was to make my mother think she was a bad girl. This was over thirty years ago and I know better now and realize how screwed up we were raised, but it happened. Now she claims she never trusted me after that. Ok. Why bother calling me then? You didn't for three years and I was ok with that.

    Then you kept doing it and maybe were still angry and called the cops and hung up and left and came back and certainly have told my "secrets" to everyone I know that you know, but I'm not as private as she is and my secrets are not as bad so she decided to shout out that I have borderline, but there is nobody to tell who I care about. Sad when she has to make things up. But, at the same time, irrelevant.

    I have just decided to not analyze her anymore and not analyze ME anymore and let her go gently. I think she still would like to have some sort of relationship with me again, but t hat is never going to happen. I will not risk my heart for her ever again. We are done.. Forever. I have moved on from that family to my real family. I hope she heals from her demons (and they are not just me...she was brutal to my brother as well, remember? And my grandmother). She just...maybe she felt everyone betrayed her at some point. I know I did. I get it. It's over...for all of us in my FOO.

    I am so glad we shared though and if anything comes up, I will certainly post it for your wise words, but I have hardly ever felt this good. I have had a wonderful twenty years with my husband, but the monkey is off my back now and I don't have to wonder about "them" anymore. The truth doesn't matter. I doubt they even know the truth. I doubt I'd see their truth as they see it. If you aren't even in one another's life, it doesn't matter. Just like some people on this forum believe in giving guns to children and I don't, it is ok to have our own perspectives on the same issues.

    I will miss Copa, but hope she has a blast and heals and checks in before then.

    I'm so glad you decided to still stick around :)

    Hugs and all my love :)
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  4. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member


    I love it that you write, too. I thought you did. I remember when you published your first one. Ha! I'd forgotten or lost track of that. I wish you every success, Serenity.

    Every single success, and much joy.

    Oh, good. Then you will know just how to begin.

    Twenty is very young, to have committed to remembering a confidence as a sin.

    Whatever the confidence consisted of Serenity, it isn't as though you told your mother to shame your sister. A mother must practice discretion. It was your mother's job to thank you for trusting her enough to give her the information so, knowing, she could respond correctly to your sister's needs.

    Your mother betrayed a confidence.

    Both your sister and yourself were betrayed by your mother in this instance.

    My mother would do something like this, and celebrate the schism she'd created between her daughters.

    We all do the things we do, both as young kids and as oldsters. Probably the only time in our lives we are interested in stability and mortgages and stuff is when we have children to protect.

    I feel badly for your sister, and for you too. Dysfunctional mothers commit such nasty, hurtful things against their own daughters.

    You know what, Serenity? I was just thinking about what I said to my sister, on that last phone call. She said she loved me. Her words had the flavor of ~ I don't know. Something like triumph. Like, that she loved me caged or legitimized some label or trapped me somehow, into how she sees me, into who she needs me and D H and my children to be, instead of who we are.

    Like there could not be anything wrong with the way she needs to see me because she loves me.

    Yet, her actions, and the way she needs to see me, and my people, speak of hatred.

    I can't explain it more clearly. I don't understand it myself, but that was the flavor of it.

    My response was: "I love you, too. I love you too much to love you this way."

    That is ~ well, you will be the only one to know ~ but that seems to be what you are saying too, about how you feel about your sister. I sense that with Copa, too. We do love them, wholeheartedly. We love them too much to love them the way they insist it must be.

    Now, we seem, here on the FOO Chronicles, to have been able to unravel a little of how hatred sort of sizzles through everything in how our Families of Origin interact. You have posted for us much information on family roles, and on the disbalance of families that are dysfunctional work. I have never forgotten that article you posted on the difference between functional and dysfunctional families being a question of fluidity of roles. In the dysfunctional family, there will be one person labeled scapegoat, one labeled Golden Child, one labeled something else.

    No fluidity allowed. None of us allowed to feel mean one day and happy one day and loving one day; nothing real, then. No trust, and the abuser determined to see to it that never changes, even after her death.

    I expect that my own mother will do what she can to enforce that.

    I remember the last time my mom created dissension in our family. Her take on it was that if Cedar does not want to be part of this family, then she is out.

    My own mother actually said that.

    My sister told me.

    So...I wonder whether that is true for all of us ~ those words I told my sister. "I love you too much to love you this way."

    This is what I know about that. Daughter has been where she has been, especially over the past four years. I really do love my grands. We were instrumental people in their upraising. But when daughter was gone...I could not step into the role of their mother for any of my grands. I am not their mother. Daughters, especially, need their mothers. As my daughter has come back, she has been able to bring first her children physically and then, her family, back.

    Mother is the core of the family.

    Not sister.

    Not grandmother.

    I think what you did was courageous, Serenity. I am certain you thought long and hard before, as the oldest sister, and with protective, almost maternal feelings toward your younger sister, you told your mother what her behavior was doing to your sister. but like it seems to be for me and for Copa too, Serenity...our sisters resent us because we were not their mothers. They may resent us because they cannot consciously acknowledge their resentment of the mother. So, they deflect that resentment they feel for their mothers onto us, onto the pseudo mother we were in our families of origin. Never the mother, abused by the mother, but serving as mother to them as best we could know because the real mother was an abusive, cruel little poop.

    I'm sorry to say so, Serenity, but your mom should never, ever, have betrayed your confidence. She should have taken your words as the wake up call they were and begun mothering her youngest daughter appropriately but she hurt her youngest daughter, instead.

    And then, they both blamed you for it. When in fact, you were doing what you, and what each of us routinely did for our sibs: Try to save them. Try to fill in for the irresponsible, abusive mother.

    But just as it is with my daughter's family too Serenity, only my daughter is her children's mother. I cannot be Mother. I could not be Mother to my sibs. And though there was some small comfort to be taken in the cooking or cleaning or loving I did for my sibs, the one they wanted to love and advise them...was their mother. Not me. To be in a position of needing mothering badly enough to accept the substitute, the pseudo mom's mothering would create shame, too. A different kind of shame than we know, but a deep, hurtful shame and all kinds of resentment.

    That is how it seems to me that the dysfunctions still roiling away at the heart of my family of origin work, to this day.

    Remember my posting that my mother had told me how she enjoyed watching the jealousy between my sister and myself over our mother? It is possible that my mom has been stoking that particular fire with all her heart, since my father's death.

    I cannot fight this. I cannot change this. It may be that my sister has less freedom in all of it than even I do.

    So that is why I think what I told my sister, and how I see my sister, is a good resting place for these puzzling things that keep happening, that seem to be hatred, and that we don't understand.

    "I love you too much to love you this way."

    I'm sorry, Serenity, but it seems to me that your mom made certain your sister would believe she had been betrayed, and that she did everything in her power, as my mother is too, to prevent the family coming together.


    I can only speak to what went on in my family. My sister called me Serenity, because her real mother hates her. In her heart, my sister knows her mother will weaken and dominate and hate and subvert. But we all need our mothers.

    We do.

    I do, too. That is why I have Maya and the black lady from Matrix and Lisa Vanderpump.

    For our sisters, pseudo mom will do...but our sisters will hate us for that, for the need of that; for the shame in that desperately unacknowledged need of a mother who loves her when what she has is a mother who hates.

    To me, that is what it seems like.

    Which doesn't mean my sister doesn't hate me. She does. It's like everything is all mixed up for us. Love and hate and shame and need and hope and rejection.

    Thanks, mom.

    Love, and hate, and a wish for healing between you and hate again and rejection. A desperate need to name you, to scapegoat you, as she was taught was the right thing by her mother. A wish to shame you as her need of you ~ her need for the comfort pseudo mom can and does provide and for which she hates her, because to take comfort there she must acknowledge, on some level, that her real mother is a terribly sick woman, and this shames her.

    Thanks, mom.

    That is true. A family member would never celebrate any kind of bad thing happening to their loved ones, to their people.

    But my family of origin did.

    So does yours.

    Copa's? Copa will post in for herself about this, maybe, if she has time.

    I feel this way too, about my own family of origin.

    Remember that D H tells me I will always need to be wary, especially once my mother has died.

    There will be such confusion then, for my sister.

    Could this be part of what motivates your own sister do you think, Serenity?

    I will post too, when I need you to help me. It is good to know you will be there, that you will be checking in every so often.

    Thank you, Serenity.

  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Of course that's why she told her fifteen years later. FIFTEEN YEARS. I did it and I am sorry I did it, because it hurt my sister and she felt betrayed, but it wasn't my intention. And, at any rate, I WAS very screwed up in my twenties, trying to do good, but thinking I was bad, half my age in maturity. I thought it was normal to tell secrets. The day I got my period my mom ran to the phone and called the only two people she knew to talk to--my dad blush) and my grandma.And she spoke in a loud voice about it. Not just that issue either. EVERYTHING.

    "Nothing is a secret in a family." My grandmother. And she taught me young and it must have sunk in. Of course I know that's not true now, but I didn't at the time and was thinking more about how heinous my mother was acting toward my sister and how in the hello could I get her to pay attention to her. She was actually as screwed up as ME and did more dangerous things...things I would not even mention here, even though it's anonymous. I was scared for my sister and furious at my mom. Does it excuse what I did? I don't know. Does it? If not, Sis, why did you ever talk to me again????? (big sigh and continuing...)

    If my sister can't forgive that which I did so long ago, I don't want to deal with that. She did horrible things to my brother and she knows it and I have posted what they were. He forgave her, if she even told him the true truth. When people are young and especially if mentally ill, like she loves to tell everyone I am (but she NEVER betrays secrets---until I was in my 40's I didn't want people to know about the mental illness, but she told everyone)...anyhow, if she can not let go what I did and has amnesia about what SHE did...I don't need it. I don't want it. I am sorry I did not have the foresight when young to realize if she would be angry for as long as three years over an incident that happened fifteen years earlier and was done when I was a total mess myself, then I should have just given up the relationship. As for my mother, she never wanted us to be close. That's why she did it. But none of that matters. The bottom line is, I am done mourning my mother's lack of love. I can't seem to get worked up over it anymore and that is thanks to you.

    And I am done with any cheating at all. Although it lead me to seeing the validating suspension. I still can't cheat. I read an interesting article on No Contact because I truly want to go there, in both mind and deed and be true to myself. The article I read was very clear. You must not talk to the person, see the person, or check their social media either. It is the only way to finally get the person out of your system. Even talking like we did, so intnsely and heartfelt, will not do it if we are in contact with these people.

    I went a long time without cheating and was GREAT. As soon as I so much as saw the fake website name, I was back there in emotional flashback hello again, even though I did not read her particular posts.

    This last time I cheated, a day ago, I happened to see a little lock on the post and that made me curious so I skipped her posts and went to the last post she had started. I clicked on the thread and scrolled down and didn't read until I got to the last post where the moderator had posted a SUSPENDED post. That one I did read. It said she was suspended and had been warned before and that it was not in the spirit of their healing site to be and I quote "trying to hurt your sister" by posting there. I guess she mentioned my site too. I decided how foolish it is to continue on when it is resolved.

    If anything HUGE comes up, I will report it to you, my friends, to help myself heal from any further trauma she inflicts on me. That is unlikely since she can't talk to me or see me and I won't read her stuff. I still don't know what she says, I just checked to see if she posted. Those days are over. I am going to end my membership to that site. That way I will have no rights to see that page.

    I am going to talk to my husband about my Celebration of New Life (as I call it) Ceremony tonight. I am thinking of doing it at this gorgeous dog park that is in a very wealthy area. I know wh at time nobody is there. I may even take my healing frineds with me (the dogs). I will write out my speeches to those I am saying a final good-bye to and stare at the sky and into the trees. I am thinking dawn is a perfect time because the sun is so beautiful as lowers and colors the sky orange, like fire. Then I will drive to the river and throw the notes I wrote into the river. I am thinking around my birthday, which is coming up.

    I feel like a Born Again Person (I guess something like a Born Again Christian who feels he/she is born again when he accepts Christ) except this time I will be born again when I believe in myself because until recently I did not totally believe in myself before. I am starting to see that my perceptions were the right ones to me and that the only person's eyes and ears I need to trust are my own.

    Cedar, before I go (and, yes, I'll be back. In fact I'm going to check and see if there are any new posts)...I have been published already. Again, "she" demeaned it by calling it porn, which is typical. I write very erotic romance, mainly because currently that is what sells the most and what is published most often. I use a pen name, a few in fact. I wrote a gay male/male and used a man's name. Most writers I've found do not use their own names or have a few names for different genres. Sadly, when I work I don't have the same creative energy that I have when I don't work. But I am going to try to write again and I want to learn to crochet :) I'm going to find a teacher. I also like to sing and do drama...there are groups for that.

    My biggest undercover secret, which I decided not to keep a secret anymore because I have no reason to be ashamed, is t hat I am shortly going to enter a class for people to become Peer Specialists to the newly diagnosed mentally ill who go to a particular place to hang out and get hellp. Most seem normal. Many are recovering drug addicts. Actually, having a mental illness does not mean you are "crazy." That is the connotations peopjle project when they wish to smear somebody who has a brain disorder, as the doctors describe it. Many things we don't think of are mental illnesses---chronic depression certainly, up and down moods that do not meet the extreme of bipolar, bipolar, eating disorders of all kinds (bulemia/anorexia), obsessive compulsive disorder...anything that keeps somebody from living life normally and happily or can damage your health. Cutting is a serious mental health issue. My very best friend who died once was a cutter. She said it was very hard to becomes addictive.

    I want to help them because I've done so well and feel so good and I remember being a scared 23 year old pregnant girl in the hospital at the university, this young white girl in a great hospital but in a poor area of town, and how the older patients of all colors made me their own, cared for me, assured me I'd get better, gave me hope, gave me love. I want to give that back to others. That's partly why I post here as my own kids are not really struggling now. So I am very excited to start the classes. We have to go for ten weeks and can not miss one week or we have to wait and take the course again. If we pass, we are taught how to help those going through difficulties in mental health.

    I am very excited about this. No, it does not papy a dime. But it's the kind of helping hand I like to extend in an area of life that I understand, lived through, and thrived under...and I don't look down at the afflicted people. I don't believe they are "crazy" in the mean sense of the world. I know better.

    Although I will be busy, I will still be here with all my friends from Conduct Disorders.

    Talk to you again later today!
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  6. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    This is so excellent, Cedar.
    This is perfect.
    I do understand what you mean.
  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Be so careful, Cedar. So very careful.

    My husband came into the game late. I was around 37 and right off the bat he had my crew figured out and told me not to trust them; that my mom was insane with the $5000 thing. He met me during THAT time, which was probably her absolute worst performance. Of course...for mother and was our last performance. It was never even near "real" after that.

    Cedar, heed your husbanhd's words. He loves you.
  8. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    You did nothing wrong. Had your sister been hurt, had she died, you would have been guilt-ridden all the rest of your days ~ and rightly so. You did what every loving person does. You told her mom. I did not know your mom waited fifteen years to tell your sister. I thought she'd said, "Your sister said blah, blah, blah."

    Fifteen years?

    Your mom did that to you both, Serenity. She did it to your sister and she did it to you, to create enmity. Here is what you don't know: What else did your mom say? We have all had teens, here. I have teen grands, now. Everyone goes to their mother with their concerns. Well, I mean, unless daughter is not herself, currently.


    The point being you told your mom to keep your sister safe.

    That is a loving and even, a courageous thing to do.

    Once we began going through some of the things that happened with my sister, there was no other conclusion for me to draw but that she hates me. Like, with a lover's passionate intention. Only hate. That is why she has that picture of she and I in her bathroom. She told
    me it was so she could see it everyday. That just isn't normal. Unless she was praying more rings of thorns around me. Anyway. What I meant to say is that it seems like each of our sister's have that same, passionate connection to us.

    So it was nothing we did.

    Our sisters hating us is an artifact of our dysfunctional families. I think my sister will never feel any differently about me. I think she may not even know she hates me. Why would you tell someone you and your cohorts had prayed a ring of thorns around them and their children to "bring them to the Lord."

    That's real hatred, to direct that kind of intent at someone.

    You didn't do anything wrong, Serenity.

    Nothing you or I could have done would have changed this outcome.

    My mom, in her mid-eighties now, is still working to keep it just that way.

    The only thing she would like better is for both sisters to be jealous of the relationship the other had with the mother.

    Isn't that something.

    Good. You don't need it anyway.

    This is stellar.

    I love this for you.

    I have that same kind of feeling, Serenity. Like there are so many things to take up again.

    Oh, good for us.

    We have done good, good work here.

    Thank you.

    You have no way of knowing what that means to me. Daughter would tell me, as sh began to recover herself, about this or that person who listened, who had cared about a homeless, mentally ill, addicted alcoholic. We have had one special lady here for dinner, twice.

    Thank you, Serenity. You will be wonderful in that capacity, and will make such a difference. It was this woman we could always contact if we hadn't heard from daughter when she was on the streets. She would know that daughter was alive when we did not, when we hadn't heard.

    Know what? I love it that you wrote and published novels. I love it.
    Of course your sister would call it porn. What else was she going to say? They hate us, Serenity, and do not wish us well.

    You will pass, and you will be a wonderful resource for everyone whose life you touch.

    This is wonderful, to know this.

    I'm so glad you told us.

    You do.

    Plus, you've been through all the terrible family stuff and come through it. Plus, you've parented kids with problems, and helped and listened and consoled all of us here.

    The lady I was telling you about? The one that was especially helpful to our daughter? Had gone through similar things herself. She had been homeless, even. She pulled herself out of it, went to school, went to work, and began checking on the homeless on her own time. She knows everything, and they know they can trust her. A position was created for her. That is what she does, now. She is very sad, sometimes. She takes in dogs and cats that the homeless cannot keep. I think she has like, four dogs and only one cat.

    Wishing every good thing, Serenity. We will watch for your posts.


    Ha! I still can't believe we actually did it. Remember how scary it was at first, how vulnerable we felt? We did it though.

  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    My God, it's true. I was afraid with what she was getting into and how my mom was making her feel so unwanted that she was really a mess. An eating disorder can kill you. She had anorexia, not bulemia. I don't k now what she has now, but it hasn't gone away. It may be better than it was. She also was exposed to, let's just say, diseases. She was experimenting with drugs. She drank. I bought her booze once and she brought up how awful it was that i did it since they were underage (and I agree. It WAS awful of me). However, she'd been drinking before that. I am really sorry I did it though. I don't know what I was thinking, really. But the bigger picture was how my sister was behaving because her mother left her alone on Thanksgivings to see her boyfriend and never paid her any attention when she was in from college and didn't even want to pick her up from the bus or train stations from college. She made her feel worthless. As I type this, I am angry all over again, even though I know my sister got over it. Yet she still engages in risky behavior. I don't's over now. But I thank you for saying why I told her. And of course I know my mother...I'm sure she made it seem as if the reason wasn't that she was neglecting her, and did not want to pay a doctor bill when my sister'd doctor thought she had encephilitis, but because I was baaaaaaaaaaaaad. Well, I haven't told anyone her secrets since as there is no reason to, but she sure has spread my mental illness as though that means one is "crazy." And when I was younger, I did not want anyone to know. I am way out of that phaze now and don't care who knows. Lots of people have depression problems and are on medication. So what?

    The fact is, I didn't trust HER> I didn't tell her I was in the hospital. My mother told her, ten years later. She likes to spring these surprises on years later. My mom was a piece of work, but I know for a fact I didn't abuse her. Yes, we had verbal fights and she was usually the instigator and I said nothing worse than shse said to my 20's I fought back from abusive talk. But I did not ever strike her or steal from her or hurt her. I can not say the same for her. She did hurt me. A lot. Not physicallyy. With her mouth.

    Anyhow, thank you again. I had to tell my mother the very worst about Sis, things I would never even mention here, even anonymously because I wanted her to wake up and care. Stupid of me. She didn't. She just used it to make her and me enemies, which is what she wanted. And if Sis can only accept mother's point of view, I can't change that.

    Nor can she change that I have always been secretly resentful of both of my siblings because they smiled to my face (Sis at least some of the time), but never once told our mother to stop talking trash about their sister, whom they loved. I would have told her to shut up if she'd taslked trash about either of them to me. If I had been the golden child, she would never have spoken about them the way she spoke about me.

    So it seems we are at a terminal standstill here.

    Cedar, you always see what I'm afraid to point out. I appreciate it so much, my friend. If you knew the whole story about what my sister got involved in, even with her husband before she married him, and how I stepped in to get them help, you'd REALLY understand. There are some things too painful to write about somebody I once loved more than anyone except for my second husband and my children. You know?

    Big hugs.
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Um...the bathroom?
    the BATHROOM?
    I don't even know what to say. You're right. It is NOT normal.
    What an odd thing to do in such a very odd room.
  11. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Typical of dysfunctional mothers. Divide and conquer.
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I know.
    They demean our accomplishments. So why do we give them the time of day?
    That's where my clarity brought me. I am sleeping with the enemy, so to speak.
    My sister, sadly, is my enemy. If she could legally harm me, she would.
    She sure must have pushed the boundaries of that site. Better forget about it. I'd rather just delete myself from that site before I read her posts about me.

    You know what? I don't even want to today. That others saw what she was doing to me is enough. Now they think I am doing the same thing. Maybe I am, but I am participating on a different type of forum and started out and still post where people's children are in trouble...I mentioned my sister when this thread started. It's best to end it now just in case I am doing it to retaliate and don't know it, although I don't think she reads this anymore...

    If I had a family I could re-create, I'd have a strong, handsome father who had fought for our country, like my husband. I'd have an intelligent, kind mother who dressed nice and liked to do my hair and taught me all the girly things I never learned and who smiled a lot and gave hugs and kisses and dried my tears. I'd have two older brothers, both handsome, who protected and loved me. And I'd have had a blast flirting with their friends as a teenager and we'd all have your family dinner on the holidays.

    I'd say no thank you to a sister. Daughters, yes. Sisters, no.

    I hope to help people like your daughter. Remember, I worked in homeless shelters. I never shun anyone who is down and out.
  13. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I feel like she is a kindred spirit. What a hero!!!

    Cedar, I'm not leaving. I just feel it's best not to talk about "that" on the public forum too often anymore. If there is just a little chance that my sister is reading and it hurts her or whatever...I'd rather do it privately or acknowledge I have healed enough not to need it as often. You know how to reach me ;)
  14. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I bought new tickets and will aim to leave 9/24 or so. By the end of this week he will finish working. We can prepare to go together so that i do not get so overwhelmed.

    Serenity as to your memorial/ceremony. I think life is like a spiral. I think we keep returning to complete things until we die. Some people who believe in reincarnation believe the spiraling continues and that we live new lives to continue work from past ones.

    I do not believe there is ever an end to important relationships. I think they live eternally. In that way the dead, continue to live. Through us. That is why it is important to continue trying to resolve the past, however we do so.

    I think the impulse to remember will be present in you over and over. There will never be an end. Perhaps you want to put aside the pain, the sadness, the anger. While this impulse may be understandable, I do not think it is either good or realistic. While we do not want it to dominate our lives, or to overwhelm us these feelings are part of and honor our lives. We need to remember.
  15. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Copa. I appreciate your thoughts. I actually do believe in reincarnation so I believe we spiral on and on. I'm simply in my own way trying to say good-bye in this particular lifetime. I am sure these people will be with me forever. Every experience we have that is significant is with us forever, but often it and they can be so far in the back of our minds that they no longer influence us. I have been in that place with my FOO. At one time my sister did not contact me for three years and I didn't expect to ever hear from her again and I was ok with that. I forgot. Not forgot forgot like you have amnesia. I simply just did not care or think about her and I know that will happen again.

    Tomorrow I have therapy with Awesome Therapist and I am going to see what she thinks about my idea. I really like the idea of a kind and gentle good-bye to those who mattered so much once, but whom I have to stop analyzing and figuring out. The truth is, I never will. If they keep overthinking, they never will figure me out either.They have zilch understanding of why I struggled more than they may have (not sure they didn't struggle just as much in their own ways, but not my circus, not my monkeys). Analyzing is guessing. That's all it is.

    I am starting to see it as a waste of time and I have a lot I still want to do and have been blessed with a nice family of my own. And my family keeps growing with grands and now Jumper's new boyfriend...he is older than her other ones and she is with him all the time so he is with us all the time so it's just another great person in our lives. His family is very friendly to us too and is including us in their get togethers, which is a first. Her other boyfriends did not have families who wanted to get to know us.

    Sonic's best friend is also often in our lives. His parents are also acquaintances whom we value very much.

    I couldn't have asked for a better ending to my story and it's not over yet.

    With work, hobbies, and now my new class and then volunteering as a peer counselor, when am I going to even have time to think about people who are no longer in my life? This is how I see it and I hope the same thing happens to you...too busy to analyze and mourn and feel sad...sounds so exciting for you and M. I am so thrilled for you. Traveling is something I have never been able to do, but this life just wasn't meant for traveling, I guess. I would like it, but next life maybe ;)

    Thanks again for your thoughtful post and keep posting. I'm not stopping. I'm just scaling back on the FOO members of my life who are still alive on the oft-chance that I have the power to hurt them. Healing was my intention. I didn't know they had access to this site. Now I feel so much better that there doesn't seem to be a need to discuss my still living FOO. That means mother and Uncle Vain are still fair game, but...the reason I was put here on earth this time is not finished. I have more work to do and I can't be bogged down with thoughts of difficult times with people who never understood that I have a really good heart, but many differences to overcome. And I did. Without them. I hope they heal too, if it is needed.

    Thank YOU for understanding, Copa.

    Talk to you very soon here ;) And, hey, I am always available to PM with anyone who wants to talk!!!
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  16. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    Ack! I never even thought of this. It just seemed so slimy a thing to think and say and kind of ~ celebrate or relish. Of course that is what she was doing. Whenever I am confronted with one of those things I cannot find a reason for ~ when I cannot see the win in what they do or sometimes, make any sense of it at all, I have just been telling myself why doesn't matter. It is what it is and so on. But of course you are right, Serenity.

    That was my mom, loving herself, right? Like setting herself up as a little emperor, a bare naked, demanding one.


    She is still pretty scary to me on some level. The difference now is that I hear the fear chords clearly. It's a strange thing. I remember my mom saying that so clearly. I can picture everything about it.

    So, that must have been traumatic.

    I would not remember it the way I do otherwise.

    A smugness there, about the jealousy between my sister and I over her. I suppose she was telling me then that the war was on, that she'd created the imbalance and I would soon fall.

    And I have.

    There is still some sadness about my sister.

    I remember feeling so offended. As though I'd been accused of behaving like an idiot. That is what she was doing. Naming me something less than I am. And for heaven's sake she was at my house. Eating my food. Probably as the guest of honor.

    Know what I am going to do about that?

    Start channeling my inner Donald Trump.


    I think it was during the visit from our down South neighbor. She was flirting outrageously with him too, but I never took it seriously.
    She was always trying to get him to go see her house, when she would be here for dinner while he was visiting. He was flirting back. He had met my mother for the first time while his wife was still alive. He would bring my mother like, an orchid that he'd picked, and they would talk about their date.

    So, that was a serious flirtation, then.

    We knew the man's wife was dying.

    The things my mother does are so ugly. No wonder I don't want to see them. D H saw. He was furious that I'd invited her, and disgusted that she was here and he said as much to her face.

    And she was embarrassed. And after she left? He got in trouble for it.

    Well for heaven's sake. How could I be expected to see something that ugly in my own mother.

    When I brought her to my Tai Chi class? She left early and waited in the car with her legs out and the door open.

    She looked pretty cute. I told her so. She said: "The legs are the last things to go."

    I don't know whether that is cute or a wrong thing.

    But there are times I think my mom is outrageously cute.

    My mom named my paternal grandmother with a mental illness. She would spit those words out routinely. She named my sister with the same illness to each of her husbands and both of her daughters ~ and to me, of course. But apparently that's all cleared up, now.


    Your sister is naming you as she does for the same reason. She is being hateful. As long as our sisters (or, for me, my mom or, for you, your dad) are being hateful, there is only one thing we can do: Stop Listening. Label the thing hateful and stop listening. We are buying into the game every time that we cheat, and every time that we listen to the terrible things they say.

    Now, what in the world is the matter with me that I don't get that.

    Even when I look back on things, I never even suspect the rottenness in it. If I poke around in there a little bit?

    There it is.


    Well. I do, now. From now on? I am going to suspect rottenness in something so simple as "Hello."


    I think part of the reason we cheat, when we do cheat, is to see whether we will be as hurt this time by the things they say. By the way they insist others see us. That is the horrible thing about dysfunctional families of origin. They do label their black sheep. (In my family, those are changeable, at the mother's discretion. Except maybe, that isn't true. Maybe you've been right all along Serenity, and I was the black sheep.) You know, here is a true thing. My sister was forever coming to my house with her kids, everybody crying about something my mom had said. They would spend some time with us. (Except for D H, fuming in the background while I listened to my sister, and to the kids, cry. Then, he would be so mad about Happy Hour having been ruined. Again. And he would be in trouble. Again.) And then back they would go to my mom's. There is much hatred in my mother. That could explain it. She would like to hurt people who have nowhere to go. As long as I was in the picture, there was always somewhere for them to go. There was always someone they could tell. Now, there isn't. So, I feel responsible for that in a way. But they have all been poops. So, they can figure everything out on their own. I am sure they will be fine. Except that I think they will not be fine. Circle; a place where I feel I should be there. My sister said, on that last conversation I had with her, that my mother had changed. I told her that would be the second time. My mother was supposed to have changed when my father died.)'s what I know about that, then.

    They do ostracize.

    They do want to exclude, and they want the excluded ones to feel hurt. And confused. And alone.

    In the sense that the intention to hurt is a decision taken in advance of whatever the action is.

    How could I have never seen this.

    And it does hurt.

    I don't know that our FOO will be able to hurt us again as they have in the past. We were always wondering how it could be that everything had fallen apart again. Now we know there was never the smallest chance this was going to work, that we would all come together for dinner, those poops.

    I did have dinner at my sister's house once, which was moderately all right. The husband's whole family was there. Lots of women.

    Beautiful kitchen.


    Which doesn't explain why my sister went through my luggage and then, told me she had done so.

    Where was my Donald Trump, then.

    I'm sure all kinds of terrible things happened then, too. I just don't remember them.

    So here is the question: Well, there is no question. I was correct.

    "I love you too much to love you this way."

    But sometimes? When I think about these things? I feel lonely.

    I do.


    Good for you, Serenity. The very things your FOO tries to shame you with now were times when you stood up, straight and tall and strong, to a hateful woman determined to destroy you, determined to make you a fearful, shamed little thing who could never recover...even after she was gone.


    So was mine. I just never knew how those nasty toxic threads were woven in and pulled tight, before. It makes my head spin, to think about it. Before, it was always "That's just how mom is."

    Every really defeatist, bad thing she did, every time she was angry (like the time she tried to dig out the hostas with her bare hands).

    "That's just how mom is."

    Funny how I think I know what happened and then, boom. Another whole level unravels.


    Isn't that something.

    Good for me too, then. It really is such an ugly story.

    At least I have changed the lenses from rose colored to clear.

    Man, it's ugly though.

    Oh, well. That's alright. I'm pretty cute, still. I have lots of very nice things in my life. (Lil and Jabber's Monty Python thread: "We already got one. Oh, yes ~ it's very nice.")


    Yah. And it isn't like those things were done accidentally. We know that now. We don't exactly know why. It just is what it is. But what also is what it is is that "We already got one. Oh, yes. It's very nice."

    I'm going to watch that clip again.

    Especially the part about how, when the English lay siege to the French castle, they throw what they throw on the King as he climbs the stairs. As though he has a right to take the castle.

    What they pour on the King then is worse than the other things ~ just whatever came to hand ~ the French had thrown, before.

    By that time, the French are taking the English king seriously. Or perhaps, that is why they could be so casually insulting from the beginning, from the English king's first approach.

    They knew what they could do to him, if he persisted.

    That is how I am going to look at this.

    The only way they can come in again is if I forget who I am.

    Now my face for them is a Donald Trump face.

    Very much like "P*** off, unless it's to my advantage."

    That is going to be me.

    That seems to be a pattern in roaringly dysfunctional families. When I feel that head-spinning feeling, I remember: Mothers who deserve the title do not abuse their kids with malice aforethought.

    That puts things back into perspective for me.

    Abusers abuse because they abuse. And they never, ever, stop. Reaching out from the grave, they continue creating family dissension after their deaths.

    What is the matter with these people.

    What confrontation, or what kindness, would ever have worked, with them.

    So, what if we think of it this way: That's why. That's the why behind all of this. Whether we knew and confronted the abusive mother, like you did, or whether we were goofy enough to believe no one meant to be mean ~ that it wasn't what it looked like and we could all come through it somehow...that is why we were targeted by the abuser, who is seeking only to be The Emperor no one dares tell that she has no clothes.

    You were right up front about the Emperor's naked. I was like, "Oh, look! You forgot your clothes." But in both cases, it was the cruel, bare naked Emperor's grandiose narcissism everyone danced around.

    Boy. I am just pumping out hatred this morning.

    I must be healing another layer.

    Well, what she said was that she wanted it there where she could see it as she dressed or bathed. I think our sisters are as confused about everything as we are. I think the pseudo mom role plays into this. I think my sister did see me as like, shelter from the storm, right? I do love her. I really do feel protective of her. I just think she was manipulating what could be manipulated, and trying to do the best she knew. But I also think there has been a big change since my mother has been staying with her in the winter. There was a big change when my father became ill.

    A huge change, when he died.

    But she hurt my child. After she had been beat and was so out of control, my sister did that thing. (Daughter is not me. That was a mistake on sister's part. Once daughter was...was feeling better she took revenge without batting an eye. An she did it perfectly and then, took the post down once she knew her aunt had seen it publicly displayed like that. And daughter was scared to tell me what she had done. And so relieved when I told her that was perfect.)

    My sister should not have done what she did.

    After all the things I know about my sister, and about my mom and about me? That is the one that stands out. My daughter, crying that sister had turned away.

    I don't even need Donald, for this one.

    Or Monty Python.

    In a way Serenity, it is like what happened when you realized who your mother was. When she went behind your back to get son's Social Security number from him and then, accused your son of lying.


    You know, if that had been me? I would have said, "Well honey, I'm sorry that happened. But that's just how Grandma is."

    What a wuss.

    But you stood right up, Serenity. It gets all confusing when the badness just keeps getting more twisted in our FOO? But you did the right thing. You were stronger and more courageous than me.

    But I am strong now, too.


    You know what? This is true. Whatever the accomplishment. Even if it isn't something as cool as having your work published. Remember my posting about D H telling me, over and over again, that my own mother and my own sister resented any good thing that I had and wished me ill?

    He was right. Again. After all.

    I just keep going back to that Circle of Thorns thing my sister prayed against me.

    No one does things like that.

    That is a very bad thing for someone to do. (I can feel the outraged Child. See how the language changes? I like that. That she is there now, I mean, and having a look at things that were so troubling for so long.)

    And we never even knew it!

    Well, huh.


    Mine too then, I suppose. Time to channel my Donald Trump.

    Every time, with my sister and my mother.

    Every time.

    We need to be able to meet our own eyes in the mirror.

    I understand.


    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  17. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Mine was, too. Gorgeous and sexy, actually, into her 80's.
    Well, is that any different than my telling you all that my sister is a narcissist with psychopathic traits?
    Yes. They call that compulsion to repeat, in psychology. We will seek out a trauma to gain mastery over it, and confront it over and over until we do. That is why you see women or men choose the same kind of flawed partner. There is something they seek out to heal. Even if they end up engaging into the same trauma, they will keep at it.
    I do not know why I copied this quote, but I will comment here anyway. As I write this Joe Biden has been contemplating entering the race for the democratic nomination. So, a couple of days ago it started. Damning by faint praise. A female Hillary supporter said something like this: We all love old Joe. We have loved him for generations and generations. He is revered and esteemed. I just don't think he can excite the young who are the future. And with that, Joe is under the bus.

    The reality is that the exact opposite is true. Biden polls very well with millennial voters and less good with the older ones who think he is bumbling.
    I was the black sheep who inconveniently became conventionally successful to a point.

    So if I think back to the last couple of times I saw my sister, what did she do: She had an honest conversation with me about my hair and how it is aging (at that time graying and pulled back into a pony tail); inviting me for Christmas but telling me I needed to stay in a hotel; and the last time, you all know what she did to M and I. Try to humiliate us, marginalize and overtly disrespect us. Trying to depersonalize M, and me with him.

    I am enraged at the memory of it. This is the person who pretends to stand with the poor and the disenfranchised. Yet as their attorney called her clients garbage.
    And to squelch her sister tries to emasculate her mate who happens to be foreign and undocumented. What kind of person does this? A very, very out of control...and possibly evil one. Well this transitions very nicely to the next:
    This reminds me of the relationship of my mother and her sister, my aunt:
    First, Cedar, I will comment upon how I see this: It sickens me that you would allow yourself to be used like this.

    To offer refuge in this way is to extend trust. It is based upon reciprocity and safety. I have not read one thing in my time on this board that demonstrated safety, trust or reciprocity by your sister towards you.
    I do not think my sister has the emotional intelligence to anticipate the precise emotions she wants to induce in her victims.

    I think she has intent to win. I think she has intent to pin down and put down. I think she has intent to evoke in the other the sense they are her victims. I think she has the intent and necessity in fact, to evoke in others the acceptance of her superiority over them and her absolute control over the situation. My sister plots to disarm her opponents and to create conditions where she is safe and has the advantage. Then she exults. And she preys.

    These are ways my sister sees her world and her place in it:
    Low rent. You are low and without options. She is superior.
    I gamed them. She deprived her adversaries of negotiating room. She took from them what they wanted and needed. On purpose she destroyed them. Through her superior skills and attributes. And she wants them to know that she did it to them on purpose. Because she could and she wanted to.

    When somebody deliberately tries to trick you, to dehumanize you, to victimize you and to cut off your humanity, the normal person will of course feel: Hurt. Confused. Alone. Excluded. Humiliated. Victimized. Degraded.

    They will wonder: Why, what is it about me that would make my sister treat me like this?

    Except for this: it is not normal to set about to destroy anybody or to put them at a disadvantage. Only predators do that.
    She was after the win, Cedar. To tell you that she had put you in her sight as the victim and to make you her prey. If you had not known, there would have been no kill.
    Cedar, I do not think we feel lonely for them. I know I miss my sister. But I cannot remember one time in 40 years that did not involve some kind of wound or degradation at her hand. I miss the idea of a sister...but not my own sister. With whom I can never expect a sisterly relationship. Because she will always inflict pain or humiliation...because that is how she operates.
    I sure do not tell her. What would be the point? Stay out of the way and get a pit bull attorney.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I loved these posts.

    The truth is so simple and that is why we missed it. And it is not a win for anyone. These incidents were just true events that happened because certain rather ordinary people decided to do them hoping they'd hurt us

    I remember a ridicules conversation I had with my mother after I was separated and living apart from my ex. I'd already filed for divorce.

    I guess I'm a slow learner (cognitive disorder n o s. Remember). I was dumb enough to tell her I'd met a man I liked.

    Her response was, in her nasty mocking voice, "you're a married lady and you're dating???? How cheap can you get! I could NEVER do that. That's wrong."

    Me: we're getting divorced!

    Her: but you're not. That's so cheap! How could you?

    Ah, that lack of abuse!

    I doubt she would have said that if it had been my sister. In fact I know she wouldn't have. To make it even sillier, she cared nothing for my ex . She knew he couldn't stand her.but any chance she had to try to make me seem bad, she did it.

    Reminds me of "you only adopted those kids because of the money they give you."

    Look, I got a head start in knowing how my mom was setting me up for alienation because she had no nice outer persona to me. She was nice to only her very few golden people and did not disguise her mean streak in pretty outer trappings.

    And I was a feisty kid with learning problems and mental health problems from early on and she knew it was easy to upset me. And she did and never once tried to help me. She blamed me. I was very perceptive, as writers are, and I knew. And when she pushed my buttons on purpose I dared to tell the truth about how I saw her as she also constantly pointed out how I was lacking. That marked me.
    The scapegoat is usually the kindest one but also the one most likely to talk openly about what is wrong in a very sick family. Like mine.
    Other scapegoats are not vocal about the dysfunction we all share one trait.

    We are the most vulnerable one in the family. Often others also see us as vulnerable and we get bullied at school and work.

    But our good hearts keep us trying to please those who take advantage of us and our perception often clears our cloudy vision.

    And here we stand. Tall. For reasons known only to them, they really wanted to destroy us but they made us stronger. We learned to appreciate love and are loved back. Not by them, but are they capable of healthy love? Have they ever had long term love relationships?

    We, the weakest, have become the strongest. And people we once knew and loved with who tried to break us are no longer important.

    I believe I chose to spend this lifetime with these people as an important lesson. I had to learn what love really is and to love all who let me. And to especially love the needy and downtrodden.

    And not to waste my love on those who don't return it. Move on. Carry on. We are soldiers.

    And we are still standing, triumphant and strong.
  19. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Serenity, of course nobody wins from acting badly. In the long run.

    But there is either a result or an emotional charge or both that these people want. If not, they would not do these things.

    An example that comes to mind is when my sister unilaterally hospitalized my mother against her will. When I told her I had spoken to the social worker at the hospital my sister started screaming and denouncing me over the phone.

    She wanted control over my mother and her assets. That was the emotional and tangible win.

    She lost long-term because by her behavior she showed me what she was capable of. With that knowledge I was able to protect my mother then and later.

    I agree that it does not take much power or skill to behave badly. At the same time, mediocre people can elevate themselves greatly by their willingness to behave very badly. Look at Hitler as an example.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Well, of course you're right. They do get a bang out of their ability to control us. That is the win, I think. The control. I think my sister is furious that she can't control what I write and if she could she'd call the cops, but she can't so maybe that will make her even more determined to stop me.

    That is why it is good to keep them far away. They can't control us if they are not in our lives. Trust me. She'd like my dad to disinherit me because I haven't stopped blogging completely. But that wouldn't stop me if I wanted to continue. My dad can do what he wants with his own money. He has not told me I had to listen to her or he will disinherit me. He's not my mother. He loves us all. But his money can't control me that way and he doesn't want to anyway.

    In the end, I think their win is control over us which they no longer have.

    They are control freaks, like their mothers before them.

    Does it matter anymore? May they enjoy a false feeling of power. They don't have the charisma to turn the world against us.

    I truly hope my foo do try healing. For them, not for me.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015