Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New profile posts
Latest activity
Internet Search
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
General Discussions
The Watercooler
Invitations from close friends
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 711485" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>So many things come to mind in response to your quandary, Nomad. First, I recall what my mother told me a couple of years before she died: <em>Copa. If you expect people to be perfect, you will be alone.</em></p><p></p><p>But on the other hand, in my life, I have walked away from many friendships. A lot of times it was circumstances. Other times it was arrogance or some other limitation on my part. But then, there is this, too: Sometimes, people betray you, and there is the need to accept that what has been thought to be friendship, is no longer, or never was. How do we determine when we should cut or losses or fight to regain or improve a relationship, by talking it out? It is hard to know.</p><p></p><p>I agree with RE, that there is always room to turn a cheek, and to look for the context which is not intentional or personal; which you have been trying to do, by forgiving her odd behavior as financially driven, or even envy. And in what RE says there is a deeper truth too. A prisoner told us once in an anger management class: <em>I always assume that if I had been raised in the exactly same conditions, I would think and do like the other guy, too.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>I think with this friend of so many years it comes down to your investment, and a question of love and respect. Look how hard we try for our difficult children, and some of us, for our mates and our parents. We dig down into ourselves, and we change, for them and for ourselves. For many of us there is no chance of turning away. I think this can be the same for friendships. But not always.</p><p></p><p>I have been thinking a lot of a friend of more than 40 years ago. I was young. Out of college. My first professional job. She was maybe 10 or 12 years older than me, married, in a much better financial situation, and she was in a position to give (and did) in such a way that I could not. I was over her house maybe 3 nights or more a week. She included me in many social events.</p><p></p><p>There was a time this became stifling to me and I did not know why. I wanted to build a future life different than the one I had. It seems I could not comfortably move on and hold on to the friendship. Or perhaps, I did not want to. I remember I felt borderline angry with her. She constantly interrupted me to put words in my mouth. When I told her and her husband I would enter psychoanalysis, the husband tried to discourage me. Perhaps he was right, but was this not a personal decision? Did it reveal an underlying lack of respect, that perhaps was built-in to the friendship? I don't know.</p><p></p><p>I seemed like the ungrateful friend but like you on some level my needs were not being met. I needed to be recognized, seen in a different way, than what was happening. Maybe that person I needed to be did not yet exist and I needed to create her. I kept the friendship on a more distant basis maybe 10 years more, more because there was a nexus of 3 friends who socialized together, intermittently. I was the youngest by far.</p><p></p><p>In sum, I needed to move away from this couple, and did not forgive myself for doing so, and still do not so many years later.</p><p></p><p>I have realized that friends are not easy to find or make. What I took for granted, is not easily replaced. I am far more guarded 40 years later.</p><p></p><p>We change. Maybe this friend does not anymore meet your needs. Maybe she senses it. Or maybe, like me, you are more discerning. It could be she has always been this way, and only now you are seeing and feeling it differently.</p><p></p><p>After about 15 or more years of knowing this woman I wanted to adopt my son. I asked her to fill out a reference form. She did. Unbeknownst to her, the social worker showed me the form after she had submitted it. She had cautioned the social worker I not be allowed to adopt because I was "emotional" which of course raised a red flag. I felt this was a betrayal, but never confronted her. If I were ever going to do this, I would tell the person up front, that what I would write would be hurtful, and give them the choice. This woman had no compunction about destroying my life. Did I sense this about her all of those years before? I do not know.</p><p></p><p>25 years later, I did go to a gathering at her house with my son who was then about 10. She had never met him, and she was very kind to him and to me. (This woman notably was very sociable and gracious.) I would have been around 50 then, she, a decade older. She asked me over the phone, when inviting me, <em>are you still beautiful?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>When I think about this, I believe it was an aggressive and cruel thing to say. Of course I was not <em>still beautiful</em>. I weighed 50 pounds more. I was 25 years older. She had never all those years earlier intimated that she thought I was <em>beautiful.</em> But the real point was this: I had spent the last 25 years developing myself. Taking risks. Studying hard. Obtaining a doctorate. Getting a profession. Establishing a career. Raising a son, alone. Living internationally with my child. There were many things my life lacked, and many struggles, but the point emphatically was not, whether I was <em>still beautiful</em> or if I had ever been. What was this woman thinking?</p><p></p><p>The thing is, these things are hard, for those of us who take relationships, and take ourselves and our lives seriously. It is hard, because we are important. We want to have integrity. We want to stay true to ourselves and to our commitments. And it is hard to know what to do when they seem to collide.</p><p></p><p>With this woman, I might have spoken to her directly and told her:<em> this is how what you do makes me feel. I want to move beyond it.</em> <em>Would you be willing to talk about it?</em> Except, in this case, I think she would not have been able to deal with this kind of honesty. Or was I at the time, capable of such. But looked at another way, our feelings are our responsibility. Your friend is not responsible for how you feel. You are responsible for changing the way you think, or moving on. That is what I think. And me too. Actually, I am forgiving myself, now.</p><p></p><p>I look forward to your response, Nomad. You have to distinguish in yourself, I think, whether it is love or pride, that is at stake for you. right now. If it is love, dig in. If it is pride, let it go. People change. Sometimes we can bring friends along with us. Sometimes not. There is no blame in that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 711485, member: 18958"] So many things come to mind in response to your quandary, Nomad. First, I recall what my mother told me a couple of years before she died: [I]Copa. If you expect people to be perfect, you will be alone.[/I] But on the other hand, in my life, I have walked away from many friendships. A lot of times it was circumstances. Other times it was arrogance or some other limitation on my part. But then, there is this, too: Sometimes, people betray you, and there is the need to accept that what has been thought to be friendship, is no longer, or never was. How do we determine when we should cut or losses or fight to regain or improve a relationship, by talking it out? It is hard to know. I agree with RE, that there is always room to turn a cheek, and to look for the context which is not intentional or personal; which you have been trying to do, by forgiving her odd behavior as financially driven, or even envy. And in what RE says there is a deeper truth too. A prisoner told us once in an anger management class: [I]I always assume that if I had been raised in the exactly same conditions, I would think and do like the other guy, too. [/I] I think with this friend of so many years it comes down to your investment, and a question of love and respect. Look how hard we try for our difficult children, and some of us, for our mates and our parents. We dig down into ourselves, and we change, for them and for ourselves. For many of us there is no chance of turning away. I think this can be the same for friendships. But not always. I have been thinking a lot of a friend of more than 40 years ago. I was young. Out of college. My first professional job. She was maybe 10 or 12 years older than me, married, in a much better financial situation, and she was in a position to give (and did) in such a way that I could not. I was over her house maybe 3 nights or more a week. She included me in many social events. There was a time this became stifling to me and I did not know why. I wanted to build a future life different than the one I had. It seems I could not comfortably move on and hold on to the friendship. Or perhaps, I did not want to. I remember I felt borderline angry with her. She constantly interrupted me to put words in my mouth. When I told her and her husband I would enter psychoanalysis, the husband tried to discourage me. Perhaps he was right, but was this not a personal decision? Did it reveal an underlying lack of respect, that perhaps was built-in to the friendship? I don't know. I seemed like the ungrateful friend but like you on some level my needs were not being met. I needed to be recognized, seen in a different way, than what was happening. Maybe that person I needed to be did not yet exist and I needed to create her. I kept the friendship on a more distant basis maybe 10 years more, more because there was a nexus of 3 friends who socialized together, intermittently. I was the youngest by far. In sum, I needed to move away from this couple, and did not forgive myself for doing so, and still do not so many years later. I have realized that friends are not easy to find or make. What I took for granted, is not easily replaced. I am far more guarded 40 years later. We change. Maybe this friend does not anymore meet your needs. Maybe she senses it. Or maybe, like me, you are more discerning. It could be she has always been this way, and only now you are seeing and feeling it differently. After about 15 or more years of knowing this woman I wanted to adopt my son. I asked her to fill out a reference form. She did. Unbeknownst to her, the social worker showed me the form after she had submitted it. She had cautioned the social worker I not be allowed to adopt because I was "emotional" which of course raised a red flag. I felt this was a betrayal, but never confronted her. If I were ever going to do this, I would tell the person up front, that what I would write would be hurtful, and give them the choice. This woman had no compunction about destroying my life. Did I sense this about her all of those years before? I do not know. 25 years later, I did go to a gathering at her house with my son who was then about 10. She had never met him, and she was very kind to him and to me. (This woman notably was very sociable and gracious.) I would have been around 50 then, she, a decade older. She asked me over the phone, when inviting me, [I]are you still beautiful? [/I] When I think about this, I believe it was an aggressive and cruel thing to say. Of course I was not [I]still beautiful[/I]. I weighed 50 pounds more. I was 25 years older. She had never all those years earlier intimated that she thought I was [I]beautiful.[/I] But the real point was this: I had spent the last 25 years developing myself. Taking risks. Studying hard. Obtaining a doctorate. Getting a profession. Establishing a career. Raising a son, alone. Living internationally with my child. There were many things my life lacked, and many struggles, but the point emphatically was not, whether I was [I]still beautiful[/I] or if I had ever been. What was this woman thinking? The thing is, these things are hard, for those of us who take relationships, and take ourselves and our lives seriously. It is hard, because we are important. We want to have integrity. We want to stay true to ourselves and to our commitments. And it is hard to know what to do when they seem to collide. With this woman, I might have spoken to her directly and told her:[I] this is how what you do makes me feel. I want to move beyond it.[/I] [I]Would you be willing to talk about it?[/I] Except, in this case, I think she would not have been able to deal with this kind of honesty. Or was I at the time, capable of such. But looked at another way, our feelings are our responsibility. Your friend is not responsible for how you feel. You are responsible for changing the way you think, or moving on. That is what I think. And me too. Actually, I am forgiving myself, now. I look forward to your response, Nomad. You have to distinguish in yourself, I think, whether it is love or pride, that is at stake for you. right now. If it is love, dig in. If it is pride, let it go. People change. Sometimes we can bring friends along with us. Sometimes not. There is no blame in that. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
General Discussions
The Watercooler
Invitations from close friends
Top