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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 58719" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>I have different ideas to Janna about the chart.</p><p></p><p>Basically BBK, you happen to have a kid who is darn good at logic. And she's using it back at you.</p><p></p><p>Of course, we do want our kids to grow up with the ability to reason with other people and make a case for whatever it is they feel strongly about. And with some kids (and I suspect Tink is one of them) simply arguing back, using the line, "Because I'm the Mum, that's why!" (I have a friend with a t-shirt that says this) simply will not work (friend with t-shirt currently has BIG problems with her typical teen daughters).</p><p></p><p>And also, BBK, I know you know this - DON'T shout at her. All this does is show her that the loudest person wins. it also feed into eavesdropping neighbour.</p><p></p><p>But yeah, our kids do get us to the point of wanting to slam our heads through the wall (hi, neighbour! Need a new wine glass? Why is that one pressed up against my wall?)</p><p></p><p>Tink has a lot of problems. I really feel for her, with 'friends' like that. Chances are in years to come they will get on better, but right now they sound like poison if unsupervised. And Tink & friends would really resent supervision.</p><p></p><p>OK, I admit something about myself now, as it relates to people on this site - when I see the combination of ADHD & Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) (or other signs I see in my Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-ish kids) my brain and my ideas switch into Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-mode. Because it is THESE kids whose brains are wired differently, and who you frankly can never win an argument with, long-term, simply by trying to overpower them. They are INCREDIBLY strong. They have stubbornness racked up to maximum and beyond - the needle is not only off the scale, it's wrapped round the stops. You won't win if you are the immovable object to their irresistible force. Ever heard of erosion? You mightn't move but you will get worn down to nothing, and THEN they step over the rubble and do what they want.</p><p></p><p>Not good.</p><p></p><p>Back to my suggestions (sorry for rambling) - </p><p></p><p>1) Give the chart a go. But do it with Tink's cooperation. The FIRST aim is not to change her worst problems, but to win her over with charts. So sit and talk with her about charts in general, and your concerns in general. Make lists. Ask TINK which behaviours or problems she wants to target first. And if Tink wants you to have a chart too - you have two alternatives. First, agree but with the same rules - YOU get to decide which things you want to work on. Or your second alternative - "it's a bit tricky to try to manage two people on charts in the one house."</p><p>Personally, I'd go for the first option. We ALL have things we're trying to work on. Maybe if Tink can help you, she will be more willing to accept help from you.</p><p>And there ARE sneaky benefits to trying this - if you ARE the competent parent you believe yourself to be, you will soon run out of things to change that are on the same scale of the things you want Tink to change. SHE will see the disparity at some stage - or at least is more likely to.</p><p></p><p>There is nothing wrong with our kids knowing we're not perfect. If I yell at one of my kids for leaving a drink bottle on the floor, and it turns out it was husband, I will then apologise to my kids and ask husband to pick it up.</p><p></p><p>2) You've probably already made a list of behaviours you want Tink to change. Ask her to write her own list. And if she insists it's not fair for her to do it and not you, once again you have two options - you could say what you've said before - "This isn't equitable because I'm the adult, you're the child. it's my job to raise you, not your job to raise me. You've got enough on your plate just learning to manage your own life." Or you could take the other option - agree. Then YOU make up y our own list, as she is making up one for you. Meanwhile she has to work on her own list for herself. You then both sit down (cookies & milk time) and compare lists. Treat it as an exercise in self-awareness as well as sharing. You finish the exercise with, "What are we both going to do now? What do we want to achieve from this?"</p><p></p><p>3) Playtime. Tink gets up to mischief. Personally, there are some things I wouldn't worry about, but then I'm not a single parent with nosy neighbours constantly criticising. It's natural for you to be tougher on your daughter than maybe you need to be. It's YOUR daughter who is the kid on the block constantly being punished, when other kids also involved are not. Tink is smart - she KNOWS this isn't fair.</p><p>So, I would restrict playtime to ONE friend at a time. If Tink goes visiting, she may not go to a house with no supervising adult, or where there is more than one child actually playing with her. And as soon as there is trouble (such as kids being mean) then Tink is to come home, BEFORE any mischief happens. Walking away is the best coping strategy with kids not playing nice.</p><p>OK, this rule would mean she can't go to the twins' house to play. What's wrong with that? If you want to amend the rule, she can go to play with more than one child, IF there is more than one supervising adult. This means you can drop in on a friend for coffee (or invite them round) and together, you play with the kids. Maybe a board game, maybe hide & seek, maybe an outdoor game. Or while the kids play outdoors, the parents can sit outside and relax while they watch the kids have fun.</p><p>It's a way of reintroducing 'nice' play, learning the rules of good play and undoing a lot of old damage. Also relearning appropriate behaviour management all round, the other kids too.</p><p>If a visiting kid gets nasty, send them home. This is supporting Tink, who really is too young to be expected to have that level of responsibility for other kids' behaviours. She can't handle her own - why expect her to cope with other kids causing trouble for her?</p><p></p><p>4) Nosy neighbour - I would thank her for her information, then close the door while you find your daughter. This is almost exactly what I go through with mother in law. I love her to pieces but she can really cause trouble sometimes by correcting my kids when they don't need it. Example: easy child 2/difficult child 2 cooked a dinner party to celebrate our return home from holidays. naturally she invited mother in law - we were happy to share the 'party' with her too. But mother in law has a bad habit of teasing the kids. Just gentle, light-hearted stuff, she says. But you don't tease Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids unless you do it very carefully, and really know what you're doing. Plus difficult child 3 was actually seriously sick with the flu and we hadn't realised it. I was busy in the kitchen with easy child 2/difficult child 2 and didn't stop the 'needling' of difficult child 3 because he was tired and had his head down on the table. The prolonged formality was tiring for him, plus he didn't like everything that had been cooked. Which wouldn't have been a problem, if I had been there to defuse things. If I'd seen things sooner, I would have sent him to bed. Instead, problems escalated to a screaming match and the evening ended very badly.</p><p>It shouldn't have. I should have been more aware of mother in law's 'teasing' of a boy who was less able to tolerate it than usual. Like with ANY kids who aren't playing nice - you separate them. I couldn't send mother in law home, it is easier to send difficult child 3 away from the table to bed, where he really needed to be.</p><p>You don't try to discipline a feverish kid.</p><p>Now mother in law adores my kids. She really loves difficult child 3 and he loves her. But he could see, even though he wasn't well, that grandma was causing trouble. Because he is so very Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), he couldn't see why I didn't punish grandma the same way I would punish a child. "Because she is grandma, she raised your father, it is not our place to correct the person who raised us," is the only answer I can give him. That, and "walk away".</p><p>We go back to our primary aim - we want the problem to stop. Walking away removes us from the problem behaviour. You can't stop it forever, only get into the habit of walking away each time it happens, before it gets to screaming point.</p><p>So at least for now, see nosy neighbour for who she may be - someone who probably cares more than you realise, but a real pain in the neck who undermines your discipline and tries to take over. Give her t he benefit of the doubt.</p><p>"Thank you for telling me - I will handle it from here," is maybe the best option, at least to begin with. You ARE a single mother, so the neighbour probably feels you need extra support (like you need THIS kind of support!??!?). If neighbour is telling you something that you already know about and which you feel is not an issue, tell her this. "It's OK, Tink has my permission. But I'll just take a peep, for an update, to make sure she's staying on task."</p><p></p><p>5). Punishment. If Tink does something like climb on your car, explain why you don't want her to do this. And if your reasons include your concerns for the car's finish, then enlist Tink in washing the car, polishing the car and detailing the inside. We save the detailing job for our kids who continually leave fast-food rubbish inside our car. Not only do they have to clean out the rubbish, they get to clean windows too (a punishment also given to those who draw in the mist on the inside of car windows). Windex, newspaper and polishing cloths.</p><p>But at Tink's age I would do it with her. If neighbour kids are involved, enlist them too. Maybe send them home for some work clothes, but get them involved or they cannot play for x amount of time.</p><p>When easy child was 8, she and the 6 year old next door climbed on top of six year old's dad's car. Dad was very angry, wanted us to pay for his car to be resprayed (total jerk - which is why his son deliberately damaged the car, we found out years later). The end result was we suggested the kids get out the car wax and buff out the scratches, which really weren't that bad. easy child tearfully told us that next door kid had told her to climb on the car. As she had never climbed on ours, we believed her. Still, she was older and should have known to say no and walk away, but at this age they don't unless you drill it in.</p><p></p><p>All this means that Tink, certainly at the moment, is very labour-intensive. But from my experience, it is the only way and the FASTEST way. Taking short cuts now means small problems which build later on. It's like a small hole in your favourite hand-knitted sweater - spend a few minutes working on each hole as it appears and your sweater stays looking good and will keep you warm. But leave a hole and let the sweater be used, the hole will continue to grow until it's almost impossible to repair without leaving an obvious mark.</p><p></p><p>Other rules to use - maybe insist on with neighbour, if you can get friendly enough - no using sarcasm EVER, no shouting (of course) and NO EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL. If Tink IS slightly Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) as I suspect, these will be much harder for her to understand which will slow things down immensely and also get her VERY angry & frustrated. You want her to be calm and able to pay attention. An angry kid, even if you're glad to see her angry after what she's put you through - will not learn anything from it. Instead, she will feel MORE justified, not less.</p><p></p><p>Even though she's a pain in the neck at times, I know you love her to pieces. Try and hang on to that.</p><p></p><p>I know I commented a few times on people interfering because they feel your single status justifies them - I get the same thing because of my disability. A lot of people treat me as mentally defective simply because my body doesn't work properly. I've even been asked, "Does difficult child 3's autism have anything to do with your disability?" It's the condescension that really ticks me off.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 58719, member: 1991"] I have different ideas to Janna about the chart. Basically BBK, you happen to have a kid who is darn good at logic. And she's using it back at you. Of course, we do want our kids to grow up with the ability to reason with other people and make a case for whatever it is they feel strongly about. And with some kids (and I suspect Tink is one of them) simply arguing back, using the line, "Because I'm the Mum, that's why!" (I have a friend with a t-shirt that says this) simply will not work (friend with t-shirt currently has BIG problems with her typical teen daughters). And also, BBK, I know you know this - DON'T shout at her. All this does is show her that the loudest person wins. it also feed into eavesdropping neighbour. But yeah, our kids do get us to the point of wanting to slam our heads through the wall (hi, neighbour! Need a new wine glass? Why is that one pressed up against my wall?) Tink has a lot of problems. I really feel for her, with 'friends' like that. Chances are in years to come they will get on better, but right now they sound like poison if unsupervised. And Tink & friends would really resent supervision. OK, I admit something about myself now, as it relates to people on this site - when I see the combination of ADHD & Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) (or other signs I see in my Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-ish kids) my brain and my ideas switch into Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-mode. Because it is THESE kids whose brains are wired differently, and who you frankly can never win an argument with, long-term, simply by trying to overpower them. They are INCREDIBLY strong. They have stubbornness racked up to maximum and beyond - the needle is not only off the scale, it's wrapped round the stops. You won't win if you are the immovable object to their irresistible force. Ever heard of erosion? You mightn't move but you will get worn down to nothing, and THEN they step over the rubble and do what they want. Not good. Back to my suggestions (sorry for rambling) - 1) Give the chart a go. But do it with Tink's cooperation. The FIRST aim is not to change her worst problems, but to win her over with charts. So sit and talk with her about charts in general, and your concerns in general. Make lists. Ask TINK which behaviours or problems she wants to target first. And if Tink wants you to have a chart too - you have two alternatives. First, agree but with the same rules - YOU get to decide which things you want to work on. Or your second alternative - "it's a bit tricky to try to manage two people on charts in the one house." Personally, I'd go for the first option. We ALL have things we're trying to work on. Maybe if Tink can help you, she will be more willing to accept help from you. And there ARE sneaky benefits to trying this - if you ARE the competent parent you believe yourself to be, you will soon run out of things to change that are on the same scale of the things you want Tink to change. SHE will see the disparity at some stage - or at least is more likely to. There is nothing wrong with our kids knowing we're not perfect. If I yell at one of my kids for leaving a drink bottle on the floor, and it turns out it was husband, I will then apologise to my kids and ask husband to pick it up. 2) You've probably already made a list of behaviours you want Tink to change. Ask her to write her own list. And if she insists it's not fair for her to do it and not you, once again you have two options - you could say what you've said before - "This isn't equitable because I'm the adult, you're the child. it's my job to raise you, not your job to raise me. You've got enough on your plate just learning to manage your own life." Or you could take the other option - agree. Then YOU make up y our own list, as she is making up one for you. Meanwhile she has to work on her own list for herself. You then both sit down (cookies & milk time) and compare lists. Treat it as an exercise in self-awareness as well as sharing. You finish the exercise with, "What are we both going to do now? What do we want to achieve from this?" 3) Playtime. Tink gets up to mischief. Personally, there are some things I wouldn't worry about, but then I'm not a single parent with nosy neighbours constantly criticising. It's natural for you to be tougher on your daughter than maybe you need to be. It's YOUR daughter who is the kid on the block constantly being punished, when other kids also involved are not. Tink is smart - she KNOWS this isn't fair. So, I would restrict playtime to ONE friend at a time. If Tink goes visiting, she may not go to a house with no supervising adult, or where there is more than one child actually playing with her. And as soon as there is trouble (such as kids being mean) then Tink is to come home, BEFORE any mischief happens. Walking away is the best coping strategy with kids not playing nice. OK, this rule would mean she can't go to the twins' house to play. What's wrong with that? If you want to amend the rule, she can go to play with more than one child, IF there is more than one supervising adult. This means you can drop in on a friend for coffee (or invite them round) and together, you play with the kids. Maybe a board game, maybe hide & seek, maybe an outdoor game. Or while the kids play outdoors, the parents can sit outside and relax while they watch the kids have fun. It's a way of reintroducing 'nice' play, learning the rules of good play and undoing a lot of old damage. Also relearning appropriate behaviour management all round, the other kids too. If a visiting kid gets nasty, send them home. This is supporting Tink, who really is too young to be expected to have that level of responsibility for other kids' behaviours. She can't handle her own - why expect her to cope with other kids causing trouble for her? 4) Nosy neighbour - I would thank her for her information, then close the door while you find your daughter. This is almost exactly what I go through with mother in law. I love her to pieces but she can really cause trouble sometimes by correcting my kids when they don't need it. Example: easy child 2/difficult child 2 cooked a dinner party to celebrate our return home from holidays. naturally she invited mother in law - we were happy to share the 'party' with her too. But mother in law has a bad habit of teasing the kids. Just gentle, light-hearted stuff, she says. But you don't tease Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids unless you do it very carefully, and really know what you're doing. Plus difficult child 3 was actually seriously sick with the flu and we hadn't realised it. I was busy in the kitchen with easy child 2/difficult child 2 and didn't stop the 'needling' of difficult child 3 because he was tired and had his head down on the table. The prolonged formality was tiring for him, plus he didn't like everything that had been cooked. Which wouldn't have been a problem, if I had been there to defuse things. If I'd seen things sooner, I would have sent him to bed. Instead, problems escalated to a screaming match and the evening ended very badly. It shouldn't have. I should have been more aware of mother in law's 'teasing' of a boy who was less able to tolerate it than usual. Like with ANY kids who aren't playing nice - you separate them. I couldn't send mother in law home, it is easier to send difficult child 3 away from the table to bed, where he really needed to be. You don't try to discipline a feverish kid. Now mother in law adores my kids. She really loves difficult child 3 and he loves her. But he could see, even though he wasn't well, that grandma was causing trouble. Because he is so very Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), he couldn't see why I didn't punish grandma the same way I would punish a child. "Because she is grandma, she raised your father, it is not our place to correct the person who raised us," is the only answer I can give him. That, and "walk away". We go back to our primary aim - we want the problem to stop. Walking away removes us from the problem behaviour. You can't stop it forever, only get into the habit of walking away each time it happens, before it gets to screaming point. So at least for now, see nosy neighbour for who she may be - someone who probably cares more than you realise, but a real pain in the neck who undermines your discipline and tries to take over. Give her t he benefit of the doubt. "Thank you for telling me - I will handle it from here," is maybe the best option, at least to begin with. You ARE a single mother, so the neighbour probably feels you need extra support (like you need THIS kind of support!??!?). If neighbour is telling you something that you already know about and which you feel is not an issue, tell her this. "It's OK, Tink has my permission. But I'll just take a peep, for an update, to make sure she's staying on task." 5). Punishment. If Tink does something like climb on your car, explain why you don't want her to do this. And if your reasons include your concerns for the car's finish, then enlist Tink in washing the car, polishing the car and detailing the inside. We save the detailing job for our kids who continually leave fast-food rubbish inside our car. Not only do they have to clean out the rubbish, they get to clean windows too (a punishment also given to those who draw in the mist on the inside of car windows). Windex, newspaper and polishing cloths. But at Tink's age I would do it with her. If neighbour kids are involved, enlist them too. Maybe send them home for some work clothes, but get them involved or they cannot play for x amount of time. When easy child was 8, she and the 6 year old next door climbed on top of six year old's dad's car. Dad was very angry, wanted us to pay for his car to be resprayed (total jerk - which is why his son deliberately damaged the car, we found out years later). The end result was we suggested the kids get out the car wax and buff out the scratches, which really weren't that bad. easy child tearfully told us that next door kid had told her to climb on the car. As she had never climbed on ours, we believed her. Still, she was older and should have known to say no and walk away, but at this age they don't unless you drill it in. All this means that Tink, certainly at the moment, is very labour-intensive. But from my experience, it is the only way and the FASTEST way. Taking short cuts now means small problems which build later on. It's like a small hole in your favourite hand-knitted sweater - spend a few minutes working on each hole as it appears and your sweater stays looking good and will keep you warm. But leave a hole and let the sweater be used, the hole will continue to grow until it's almost impossible to repair without leaving an obvious mark. Other rules to use - maybe insist on with neighbour, if you can get friendly enough - no using sarcasm EVER, no shouting (of course) and NO EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL. If Tink IS slightly Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) as I suspect, these will be much harder for her to understand which will slow things down immensely and also get her VERY angry & frustrated. You want her to be calm and able to pay attention. An angry kid, even if you're glad to see her angry after what she's put you through - will not learn anything from it. Instead, she will feel MORE justified, not less. Even though she's a pain in the neck at times, I know you love her to pieces. Try and hang on to that. I know I commented a few times on people interfering because they feel your single status justifies them - I get the same thing because of my disability. A lot of people treat me as mentally defective simply because my body doesn't work properly. I've even been asked, "Does difficult child 3's autism have anything to do with your disability?" It's the condescension that really ticks me off. Marg [/QUOTE]
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