TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Wow, that's a lot of info.

He seems to fit most of the depressive criteria. I've taken these from the list:


  • Irritability, anger
  • Worry, anxiety
  • Pessimism, indifference, feeling like nothing will ever go right
  • Unexplained aches and pains
  • Not able to concentrate or make decisions
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Compassion,
we must have been posting at the same time.

I think that his hyperactivity on Friday was due to the Zoloft. It is a relatively new behavior and the last time he was this agitated was also when we trialed Zoloft.
We will continue it for a few more days just to make sure. He is home all weekend, and they have Mon. off, so that helps us keep an eye on him.
He has his first baseball practice tomorrow so that will be the litmus test!

The list above, which I cut and pasted from the medication page that klmno linked, is more typical for difficult child. IOW, his "daily" attitude.
The "mania" is new and coincidental with-the Zoloft.
When he stays up all night playing PS2 (stealing it from our hiding place) he is exhausted the next day and cannot get up. I think he'd need a more extended period of mania to really qualify for bipolar. Right now his behavior seems to fall more into the impulsivity and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) categories.

All we can do is observe and take notes and take it one day at a time.

He has done his chores today and was argumentative but I just turned my back and told him, No chores, no PS2.
Lo and behold, he did the chores. He CAN control himself.
 

klmno

Active Member
Did you read about the manic symptoms yet? (inability to sleep, grandiose feelings/thoughts, sexual stuff)?
 

MyHrt31

New Member
My son had the exact same reaction when they tried to increase his Vyvanse from 30mg to 50mg. The school called me two days in a row and TOLD me that I "did not give him his medication for hyperactivity because he was bouncing off the walls" (Don't you love it when they TELL you what you did and didn't do?) He said his heart was racing and he felt like he was "nervous". Of course, this is a stimulant so this is to be expected but the doctor was puzzled because stimulants are supposed to have a "calming" effect on children with ADHD right? He was okay on the 30 mg but when they went up, he was literally bouncing off the walls. I guess everyone reacts to medications different ways. I take Welbutrin and Topamax and both seem to make my heart speed up a little where as I've heard it has no effect on others on the same dosage as me. I feel so bad for you and your difficult child because I know how frustrating it can be to try and pinpoint what is causing certain issues. It definitely sounds like the Zoloft is the problem. My son was recently put on Invega (its for schizophrenia for adults but can be used for both bipolar/autism in children) Maybe you can ask about this medication? I don't know if it can be considered a mood stablizer but my son's aggression/irritability have decreased since he's started it (2 weeks ago). I'm no doctor so I know I shouldn't be making recommendations but it can't hurt to ask right? I hope things get better soon, for the both of you. Take care of yourself too mom! You sound like you could use a long bubble bath :D Let us know how everything works out
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Myhrt. I did not see Invega on that list but I'll Google it.
The racing heartbeat sounds VERY familiar.

klmno,
he only shows some of the manic symptoms, and not to a large degree, either in length of time or being unable to cope.

  • Increased physical and mental activity and energy (He's always been like this)
  • Extreme optimism and self-confidence (Does this incl. not needing lessons for music, tennis or baseball because he "knows" it?)
  • Grandiose thoughts, increased sense of self-importance (?)
  • Irritability, anger (Always)
  • Aggressive behavior (Not any more)
  • Decreased need for sleep without feeling tired (Only on rare occasions, only lasting one night at a time)
  • Racing speech, racing thoughts (No.)
  • Impulsiveness, poor judgment (Yes.)
  • Reckless behavior such as spending sprees, major business decisions, careless driving and sexual promiscuity (Don't know. :) It sounds like his bmom, though. :) )
  • In severe cases, delusions and hallucinations (thinking, seeing or hearing things that aren't true or don't exist) (No.)
I think he's still too young for us to know. His behavior is still impulsive but that could be so many things.
I am not ruling out bipolar. Just not ruling it in. ;)
And I'm not sure that this psychiatrist is the best in the world. She does have a lot of kids in her waiting room and seems to understand the argumenetativeness and denial, but she's always so rushed, and such a pill pusher, I'm not sold on all the medications.
 

klmno

Active Member
My son is over 30, based on what I see. But, I don't have another kid to base "appropriate" and "usual" on. The dr's where he is now say they do not see mania or hypomania. They are the profs, then again, they don't know what is out of character for difficult child, so who knows. We all agree that he suffers from depression at times. So, in my humble opinion, it might be that my son is not BiPolar (BP), but just can't take an AD so he might need a MS instead.

That link says if your child is over 20, they should be evaluation'd.

Re. your son, I wsa thinking his obsession, for lack of better term (ok, let's say "interest") in females' undies might or might not be indicative of BiPolar (BP). I would assume that it would help distinguish things if there are other BiPolar (BP) symptoms showing up at the same time the undies are.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Well, as usual, difficult child scored right on the dividing line: 20.5.

husband and I only disagreed on one point (I will start a sep thread).

It's an ongoing process.
 

Steely

Active Member
Just chiming as a "person" who has taken numerous anti-depressants over the years. Manic/bi-polar/or just depressed, there can be side effects from these medications. Prozac made me a mess, grinding my teeth, unable to sleep. Wellbutrin made my heart pound, and race, and I felt like I was going to have a heart attack. These medications can produce what your son experienced, bi-polar or not.

With a bi-polar patient you just have to be even more careful because what can be a normal side effect, can turn into long term mania, like what happened to klmno's son.

Many hugs in this search for you. I know how hard it is. I think I might go along with whoever said, that any SSRI for a kid under 18 is not OK. That is also inline with what the research says.
 

smallworld

Moderator
NIMH research shows that Prozac can be more helpful to kids with anxiety than placebo alone. Prozac plus CBT is more helpful than either alone, according to the same research study. So I think it's irresponsible to say that no one under 18 should take an SSRI (and this is coming from a mom who doesn't particularly like SSRIs because her three kids have had bad reactions to them).

I do agree that kids can experience bad side effects to SSRIs, whether they have BiPolar (BP) or not. That just means that we as parents need to be ever-vigilant whenever our children trial any new medication.
 

Janna

New Member
I know nothing about Zoloft, but let me understand, they sent him home because he was hyper?

Because, if so - they should be sued LOL! They cannot, absolutely cannot, do that. Not.

Your difficult child sounds alot like my D. Autistic/BiPolar (BP). They can be both. D's Axis I is insane. He doesn't even have a dual diagnosis. He has the DSM. You may never figure it out, Terry. It stinks.

Wish I had something to say. Just sending hugs and support.

XOXOX
 
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TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
That was my gut reaction, Steely, but the psychiatrist insisted that there are studies on kids now and that they have been approved. I will ask for a copy of the research or an online link.
 

Janna

New Member
When, in 4th grade, I was getting massive calls because D was being disruptive in class (Emotional Support yet) - I called and got an Advocate.

When I explained the situation to the Advocate, she told me the next time the school calls me to pick him up because he's being disruptive, I was to ask "are you supposed to be calling me?".

I did. They didn't again.
 

rejectedmom

New Member
If it is the Zoloft, I'm wondering if his reaction is because he's mildly bipolar because I know that straight antidepressants with-o a mood stabilizer are not good. We may be onto something here! (The psychiatric hospital people last fall suggested that difficult child had more than one issue and to not rule anything out.)

Wish us luck tomorrow!
I hope you get this figured out and difficult child becomes more relaxed and stable. -RM
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Terry...that list is more for adults. Now I meet almost all of them but somewhere there is a list for kids and I met them as a kid. Gosh...arent I a lucky gal?
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Ohhhh, yeah, Janet!!! LOL!

Janna,
I don't know that they would have sent him home if it had been a normal school day. But it was Valentine's Day and classes were out, and they were just doing fun stuff like making brownies, crafts, etc. It wasn't like he was going to miss anything.
Plus, I called to ask what time I should pick him up at carpool, and he had just walked into the ofc at that point. I'm not sure if his teacher had planned to send him home, or if she just took advantage of the fact that I was pretty much ready anyway, keys in hand.

He has been somewhat better this weekend.
No racing heart beat today.
But he did blow up yesterday. Partly my fault ... he said he wasn't hungry but I served him dinner anyway. (One of those obnoxious "mom" habits ;) ) He was extremely rude and disrespectful and yelled at me, I sent him to his rm and told him no more PS2, and on his way, he shoved me and flipped the bird.
Luckily, husband was there.
difficult child ran upstairs and cried for 12 min (husband timed it on his watch; he was going to check on him in 15 min) and then difficult child came downstairs with-a really nice note.

I asked him if he was upset because we misunderstood him, or because we took away the PS2. He said because we misunderstood him.

We had a long talk about what he thinks in his head, vs how he comes off to the outside world. He needs lots of practice. Sigh.
 

Steely

Active Member
So I think it's irresponsible to say that no one under 18 should take an SSRI

Smallworld, to my knowledge, Prozac is the only SSRI approved by the FDA for kids under 18, correct?
I do not believe it is irresponsible, I believe it is responsible to only give SSRIs to children as a last resort.
 

smallworld

Moderator
I think I might go along with whoever said, that any SSRI for a kid under 18 is not OK. That is also inline with what the research says.

Steely, I was responding to your statement that research says that SSRIs are not OK for children. That is simply not true. And I cited the NIMH research above.

Prozac is the only SSRI that is FDA-approved for depression in children. Prozac, Zoloft and Luvox are the only SSRIs that are FDA-approved for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) in children. But you and I both know that many of the children on this board take medications that are not FDA-approved for mood disorders in children, including mood stabilizers and atypical antipsychotics. And the medications our kids take have significant side-effect profiles that rival or surpass those of SSRIs.

Believe me, I'm not an SSRI fan. I have three children who had bad reactions to SSRIs. But I also know lots and lots of kids who have straight anxiety and straight depression and have benefited greatly from taking SSRIs.
 

Steely

Active Member
Perhaps I took offense at the word irresponsible. We all know on this board, that many of our children have had bad reactions to SSRIs. To date Prozac is the ONLY one approved for depression, and only to be used when depression is a stand alone diagnosis.

Apparently Luvox and Zoloft are approved for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), as a stand alone diagnosis as well, which I did not know. However Terry's son does not have a stand alone diagnosis, and therefore, in my opinion, it is not a good idea to XR SSRIs as a solution , until the diagnosis has actually been estabilished.
 
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