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Punishment from the school
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<blockquote data-quote="SuZir" data-source="post: 571229" data-attributes="member: 14557"><p>This is very true and that is my problem with harsh consequences. By the way, we don't really have juvies at all. One in the whole country and there are less than 100 kids in it. You have to kill, maim or rape someone to end up there. Everything else is handled differently (we do have Residential Treatment Center (RTC)-type places though.) The reason for this is not that our kids would be much better than yours. They are not. But studies have shown that if the kid is sentenced to juvie or dealt with lesser punishments for same crime, the prospects for a kid are hugely different. Those sent to juvie have very high probability to end up adult prisons some day and never to be good tax payers. Those given lesser punishments are much less likely to go to prison and much more likely to have a job and living normal life when adult. Prisons are incredibly expensive, we rather put that money to something else. We still don't have more crime than you (in fact less.) Harsh punishments simply aren't that effective.</p><p></p><p>And they are not effective with kids either. As you said, kids are incredibly good in adjusting, all people are, but kids especially. When you take something important away from them, it stings, but only for a short while. In few weeks they are all but forgotten that. And if you are taking away things that are positive influences in their lives, you only end up with a kid, that has less positive influences and more negative influences they are living with. </p><p></p><p>My difficult child has always has lots of negatives but also many positives. Those positives are the things that keep his head above the surface. If we would had taken them away long ago, because he didn't earn them, we would now have a new adult with nothing going for him but all his problems and negatives still there. In our desperation we did try that once. We and school were determined to make the end of his truancy. </p><p></p><p>We took him off from all his sports, music and other fun things till he would be going school regularly. School gave him only fails as grades and didn't even give his exams back (there has never been an exam he hadn't aced, all the time he was well above the academic goals for him even with the truancy.) He was very strictly grounded (mostly in his room, no tv, no phone, no computer, no toys, no books, nothing), had to do lots of chores, we even tried spanking (till the point of real abuse and even over that point unfortunately.) He only got worse. He run away (was at least twice looked by the police and often by us and our whole family and neighbours), he run away from school, even with the one-on-one aide (difficult child was quick on his feet, aide wasn't), was very disruptive at school when he was there, very defiant and unhappy at home, had some self-harming behaviours and in the other words everything was going he** in the handbasket. Luckily (oh the irony) something happened when husband was again whipping difficult child and he got really hurt (needing a doctor right away-hurt) and that really opened our eyes. We were really screwing our kids life by trying to discipline a problem behaviour out of him. We were taking away everything that was going for him in the hopes we could stop one problem behaviour (and we certainly would had been left with several others.) So we simply turned away from that route. And while the truancy issue never really got solved (it got little better later and he was able to work around it) and we have certainly have more bad behaviours from him later, I'm very happy we changed our minds and took the other route. We let him keep the good things in his life, things that had positive influence on him even if he never really earned them. They still helped him.</p><p></p><p>The system there kids are allowed to stay in their teams, clubs, choirs etc. and only not let to compete as a punishment is much better. Kids get to keep the positive influence and get the sting only from not being allowed to compete. Of course those too loose the effect if the punishments are too long. But expelling kids from their teams and clubs is very unlikely to lead to anything good for those kids. Of course you can argue, that it scares others. But again studies shows that harsh punishments have very little influence to behaviour, it is more important how likely person thinks (s)he will be caught. And with the teens and drinking etc (that everyone is doing, if you ask kids) they simply don't think they will be caught. So punishment looses most of its scare effect.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SuZir, post: 571229, member: 14557"] This is very true and that is my problem with harsh consequences. By the way, we don't really have juvies at all. One in the whole country and there are less than 100 kids in it. You have to kill, maim or rape someone to end up there. Everything else is handled differently (we do have Residential Treatment Center (RTC)-type places though.) The reason for this is not that our kids would be much better than yours. They are not. But studies have shown that if the kid is sentenced to juvie or dealt with lesser punishments for same crime, the prospects for a kid are hugely different. Those sent to juvie have very high probability to end up adult prisons some day and never to be good tax payers. Those given lesser punishments are much less likely to go to prison and much more likely to have a job and living normal life when adult. Prisons are incredibly expensive, we rather put that money to something else. We still don't have more crime than you (in fact less.) Harsh punishments simply aren't that effective. And they are not effective with kids either. As you said, kids are incredibly good in adjusting, all people are, but kids especially. When you take something important away from them, it stings, but only for a short while. In few weeks they are all but forgotten that. And if you are taking away things that are positive influences in their lives, you only end up with a kid, that has less positive influences and more negative influences they are living with. My difficult child has always has lots of negatives but also many positives. Those positives are the things that keep his head above the surface. If we would had taken them away long ago, because he didn't earn them, we would now have a new adult with nothing going for him but all his problems and negatives still there. In our desperation we did try that once. We and school were determined to make the end of his truancy. We took him off from all his sports, music and other fun things till he would be going school regularly. School gave him only fails as grades and didn't even give his exams back (there has never been an exam he hadn't aced, all the time he was well above the academic goals for him even with the truancy.) He was very strictly grounded (mostly in his room, no tv, no phone, no computer, no toys, no books, nothing), had to do lots of chores, we even tried spanking (till the point of real abuse and even over that point unfortunately.) He only got worse. He run away (was at least twice looked by the police and often by us and our whole family and neighbours), he run away from school, even with the one-on-one aide (difficult child was quick on his feet, aide wasn't), was very disruptive at school when he was there, very defiant and unhappy at home, had some self-harming behaviours and in the other words everything was going he** in the handbasket. Luckily (oh the irony) something happened when husband was again whipping difficult child and he got really hurt (needing a doctor right away-hurt) and that really opened our eyes. We were really screwing our kids life by trying to discipline a problem behaviour out of him. We were taking away everything that was going for him in the hopes we could stop one problem behaviour (and we certainly would had been left with several others.) So we simply turned away from that route. And while the truancy issue never really got solved (it got little better later and he was able to work around it) and we have certainly have more bad behaviours from him later, I'm very happy we changed our minds and took the other route. We let him keep the good things in his life, things that had positive influence on him even if he never really earned them. They still helped him. The system there kids are allowed to stay in their teams, clubs, choirs etc. and only not let to compete as a punishment is much better. Kids get to keep the positive influence and get the sting only from not being allowed to compete. Of course those too loose the effect if the punishments are too long. But expelling kids from their teams and clubs is very unlikely to lead to anything good for those kids. Of course you can argue, that it scares others. But again studies shows that harsh punishments have very little influence to behaviour, it is more important how likely person thinks (s)he will be caught. And with the teens and drinking etc (that everyone is doing, if you ask kids) they simply don't think they will be caught. So punishment looses most of its scare effect. [/QUOTE]
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