This really doesn't relate to anything. Just kind of hit me while reading about what our, well I don't like the new reference so will just say, children who brought us to this forum have done to us over the years. The manipulation, emotional abuse, and stress they cause their families is horrible but try to step back and be more clinical for a minute. First, I have to respect their ability to live in the moment and consequences be damned. I don't have to agree with it, just respect it. How many of us have dreamed in some way, shape, or form of just doing what we want to do when we want to do it? Lil has told me about her dream (that pretty much ended with the birth of our son) about getting her paycheck, packing up a pickup truck, and leaving all the bills and responsibilities behind. Doesn't really appeal to me but my version of that would be to take the paycheck and go to Vegas or just go buy all those high end electronics I cant afford payments on! Second, the sheer amount of time and energy they put into their fabrications used to try to manipulate us. Think about ALL they could accomplish if they were to redirect this energy and intelligence (lets be honest, MOST of the children talked about here are highly intelligent if not overly street smart!) into something more productive and preferably legal! Finally, and this ties in with the second, is the sheer stubbornness that they possess when denying or redirecting/deflecting the fact of their inappropriate life style. I can be stubborn at times but when I'm told by enough people and shown cold hard facts that I probably wont succeed I stop what I'm doing and move on to something else. Well, most of the time! While soldiering on well after the safety limit has been passed may not be the healthiest way to live, its also the way to make break throughs! Just felt like sharing this. Have a good day everyone!