Sicko & Oprah

[hearts and roses]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HereWeGoAgain</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I read that "Sicko" focuses on Cuba's health care system, which is as socialized as it gets. I haven't seen the movie, and won't, but if that is true -- does anyone really believe that Cuba has better health care than the USA? </div></div>

There is a lot more in the movie than what is focused on Cuba. Why won't you see the movie? What have you got to lose? It was a very informative film with a lot of insight into the way other countries put to good use their tax dollars. As to the whole waiting stories you've read? Moore's film puts that to rest as well. Not true. I suggest that if anyone wants to voice their opinion about our national health care here in the US, they should at least become well informed and one way of doing so is to hear what EVERYone has to say on the topic, not just what is offered by mainstream media.

I personally do not think that there are any easy answers. Even if we get a president in office who makes national health care his/her top priority, the other sections of government, lobbyists, and pharmaceutical companies will make it very difficult to move forward with ease. I think that a lot of people and giant conglomerate companies stand to lose a lot of money. So, if you're very wealthy, you can buy your own medical and if you're poor, you can get medicaid. But if you're working middle class (like me), you get health insurance through your employer (if you're fortunate enough) and you pay high premiums and receive monthly letters telling you what coverages they are eliminating today. I just received another one yesterday, almost one month exactly from the last one telling me the medications and services and providers that have been eliminated from our plan. Ugh.

Barbara, you are so right. We do have to ask questions - even if they sound like stupid questions. There are so many intricacies to the insurance industry that most people do not have a clue about and until we ask, we will never know what we're voting for. I am still wondering if our country and the elitists at the top can truly manage socialized medicine here in the US...see above comment about certain people standing to lose lots of money. I will reiterate, I don't know the answers, but I'm certainly willing to exercise my right to ask the questions.

 

[Steely]

I think the key, as Scent of Cedar mentioned, is knowledge. Knowledge is power. Unfortunately a lot of America does not have enough knowledge about this healthcare problem, to even be able to hypothesize about what to do, let alone decide to make a difference.

I would urge all of us to arm ourselves with as much information as we can. Sicko is not an encouragement of socialized medicine, nor is Michael advocating that as the only answer, he only wants us to get out of our comfort zone, and think outside of the box. As Oprah said, many people do not even know healthcare is a HUGE problem because it does not apply to them. Many are comfy where they are, and have not given a second thought to that single parent making barely enough to get by, but enough to not qualify for medicaide. Or the elderly man who lost everything he owned to pay for his wife's cancer treatments.

It is not about us as the people having the answers right now......it is about us waking up and getting knowledge so that we can make a change. We have to believe that we still can make a difference - because apathy kills. We still live in America, and we can still cause change........that is what our country was founded on.

Who knows how that will play out......I personally, have a million ideas......but debating them I do not think is the answer at this point. The rhetoric and debating is what is bogging America down in making a difference.

Our goal should be, to unite for this one cause:
Healthcare should be available to all people. Rich, poor, young, old.
And then, once we can all agree on that, that will cause the momentum and power for change.

 

[witzend]

Thank you, WW. "Rhetoric" is the word I was looking for.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Our goal should be, to unite for this one cause:
Healthcare should be available to all people. Rich, poor, young, old.</div></div>

If this is really what we want, and I appreciated that Oprah questioned the sincerity of her audience when every one of them said this was what they wanted, some people will pay more taxes for this than they have in the past, and other people won't have such quick and easy access as they have in the past.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can't in one breath say "I want healthcare for all" and in another say "but I want to keep what I have." It's apples and oranges.

 

[flutterbee]

Regarding wait lists, I waited 10 weeks for an appointment with an internist and 4 months for an appointment with a cardiologist. That's with health insurance. It's not like we have immediate access with our system, either.

Regarding higher taxes, it's really a wash. Right now, the cost of everything we buy is inflated to cover the cost of employer-provided health insurance. For example, GM stated recently that it has to markup each car it sells an additional $1500 to cover those costs. That certainly isn't isolated to GM. So, we are already paying for everyone elses health insurance. It's just a hidden cost rather than a line item on a tax return. Frankly, I'd rather know exactly how much of my money is going to pay for other's health insurance. At least then, I could argue intelligently on the issue. In addition, we are paying increased costs for medical procedures and hospital stays to cover all those without insurance. Really, it's an issue of 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

People aren't afraid to voice where they stand on the 'right to life' issue, especially around election time. But, sadly, there is much less interest in quality of life.

 

[flutterbee]

It also doesn't seem to occur to anyone that we don't have to have the exact same system as Canada or Britain or New Zealand or France, etc. We can learn from their mistakes, take what works and create our own. There is more than one way to set this up.

It just infuriates me when people are so quick to jump on the problems of another country's health care system without stopping to think that it is possible to fix our system without duplicating theirs. It's something opponents pull out to scare the masses back into submission. Aren't we smarter than that?

 

[witzend]

Totally agreed on all points, WG. Of course, just because they wouldn't have to pay employee health insurance doesn't mean that they would lower prices. It will take time for that to balance out. And, like they say in the movie and on Oprah's show, that movie isn't for the uninsured, it's for those of us who have insurance and think we're safe.

In my state, it is against the law to pump your own gas. We also have some of the higher gas prices in the nation. The reason the prices are higher is because we don't have any refineries. But every two years they try to convince us that we should allow self-serve because it would lower gas prices. OK, let's think about it. Let's say a gas station has 6 islands with two sets of pumps and is open 24/7, and averages three employees pumping gas at all times. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but overall, three. Minimum wage is $5.85.

$5.85 x 3 = $17.55 an hour. $17.55 x 24 = $421.20 a day. $421.20 x 7 = $2948.40 a week. How many tanks does it take to make up that $2948.40? I pay about $50 a fill. That's 58 fill-ups. A busy station can do that in half an hour. Do they really think we are so stupid to think that the owner is going to pass some gigantic savings along to us? What, maybe $.01 or $.02 a gallon for a month then back to business as usual? Well, thank you very much, my $.20 a tankful is well worth not ever having to get out of my car. Besides, they're still going to have full serve gas, they're just going to charge more for it.

(Needless to say, if I go out of state, I don't know how to fill my gas tank. :wink: )

 

[flutterbee]

You have to look at the whole picture. For example, with self-serve you also have increased risk of drive-offs (people pumping gas and skipping out on paying). Of course, the company doesn't absorb that cost; it comes out of the station manager's paycheck. The one making $7.00 an hour.

We have a full service station in town. Actually, one side is self-serve and the other is full service. It costs a penny more per gallon for full service. So, just like anything else, it can be done affordably.

 

[tinamarie1]

sorry, i should have just kept my mouth shut. i really respect and value you all here and I should know better.
tina

 

[runawaybunny]

This is John Stossel's report on the health care system which aired a couple of weeks ago.

Part 1:
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Part 2:
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Part 3:
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Part 4:
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Part 5:
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Part 6:
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[Big Bad Kitty]

I don't think Michael Moore has a pipe dream that all Americans have crappy insurance.


I think that he has brought it to American's attention that so many Americans have NO insurance.

 

[flutterbee]

Tinamarie -

Please don't ever feel like you can't speak your mind. Discussions of this nature tend to become a bit passionate, but everyone has something worthwhile to say.

 

[Star*]

I make LESS this year than I did LAST year.....

I was disqualified from receiving Medicaid for myself and Dude

When I asked WHY? I was told I make "too much".

I replied that I make LESS this year than I did LAST year and she faxed me this years pay scale/per home.
I pulled out last years scale and it was HIGHER, this year the wage you can earn has been lowered.

I asked with inflation etc HOW CAN THIS BE?

(And until this point I was silent about illegal immigration)

And I was told....DUE to the influx of illegal immigrants the gov't lowered the amount you could earn in a 2 person household because there has to be money to cover the illegal immigrant situation ie: car wrecks, baby's being born, emergencies from work.

I told the caseworker I couldn't afford the health insurance at work, and I was on 12 medications only a few of which I could afford, and when the refills run out I can't afford the doctors office call. So I quit them all.

I ended up in the hospital

I have an enormous bill

And when the calls have come from the bill collectors I tell them "NO speaka English" and hang up.

My son who is disabled 'may' be able to now get medicaid services since he's 17 and not living at home. Ain't THAT a pip?

:cigarsmoker:

 

[flutterbee]

Star -

This won't help with the doctor visits, but when you do need medications ask your doctor if any of the medications you need are on wal-marts $4.00 drug list. My beta blocker, ace inhibitor and statin are. Not everyone needs lipitor...there are alternatives.

 

[Kathy813]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> does anyone really believe that Cuba has better health care than the USA? </div></div>

Yes, for the 44 million uninsured Americans (Census, 2006) that can't afford health care.

I think it is very easy for those of us with health insurance to lose sight of the fact that many people cannot afford a doctor's visit, never mind a life-threatening illness like cancer.

How can anyone justify that we live in a country that doesn't even make sure that all of our children have access to healthcare?

My difficult child didn't have health insurance for the last two years. It was a huge relief to us when she went back to school and was covered by my school insurance. She still has trouble, though, paying for the copays so we have to help her with those.

Nancy ~ you premiums are unbelievable. How can anyone afford that? It made me appreciate my school insurance. My whole family is covered for $188 a month. Of course, that is for HMO coverage which is fine as long as you are basically healthy.

Witz ~ I agree that the term "socialized medicine" is being used as a scare tactic. I hate it when radio and television talk show personalities use it. I'm sure that they all have great health coverage and a hefty salary to cover the copays. I wonder how they would feel if they had a child with cancer and no insurance on an average person's salary.

~Kathy

 

[Nancy]

You have all brought up very good points, much to think about. It is all of our responsibilities to become informed.

I don't accept the fact that our country cannot find a way to provide health coverage for all it's people. I too believe we can learn from other countries mistakes. We don't have to have the same system. We have brilliant people here who should be able to come up with a system that works.

You're right Kathy, how can most people afford that? I am very thankful that we can, although it takes such a huge percentage of our income that there is not much left for anything else. I'm not complaining...at least we have coverage. But how in the world can most people afford that? We are just normal people who have pre-existing conditions like everyone else and don't belong to a group plan. I am quite certain that our kids will not be able to afford insurance. Certainly not difficult child whose history alone will disqualify her.

Even Michael Moore said not to call it socialized medicine.

Nancy

 

[Marguerite]

Heather, you said, "It also doesn't seem to occur to anyone that we don't have to have the exact same system as Canada or Britain or New Zealand or France, etc. We can learn from their mistakes, take what works and create our own. There is more than one way to set this up."

We have had what some people call "socialised medicine" in Australia since the 1970s. Back then it was totally free to all, and it quickly became a financial nightmare. The biggest problem was doctors making a fortune by double-dipping, filling in false claims, etc. Now technology has closed a lot of the loopholes, plus a lot of mistakes have been fixed. What we have now works.

We still have gaps - no publicly funded dental care, for example. But it's on the agenda.

How ours works currently - every member of the population has a Medicare number. This is not only all Aussie citizens, but also all permanent residents. Those with refugee status or similar have varying degrees of cover, for varying periods of time.

The Medicare number is like a social security number, only much more tightly controlled. Each family has one number, but a card with all family members' names on it. So it's not just the Medicare number, it's also your position on the card. difficult child 3 is no 6 on our card.
As the kids get older and independent, they apply to get a Medicare card (and number) in their own right. Both our girls have now done this.
If/when easy child and BF1 get married, they can either keep their own separate numbers or get a combined one. When they have their first child, a family card will be issued, if they want it.

With every change of Medicare number, the old number becomes inactive for that person. This cannot be abused. And our social security system links the Medicare numbers with tax file numbers with a vast amount of other personal detail.

Who pays for it? We all do.
NOW - we are all taxed about 1% (the Medicare levy). Below a certain income level, there is no levy. but clearly, as you get richer, you pay more.
If your income is above a certain level, you are encouraged (by a higher Medicare levy percentage if you don't) to buy private health insurance. This pays for extras like dental, optical, private hospital, etc. There are a lot of advantages to private cover, but it is ALWAYS as an add-on to everyone's basic automatic health cover.

Doctors are not permitted to refuse a Medicare patient - we are ALL Medicare patients anyway. Doctors used to bulk-bill - this means you didn't hand over any money at the doctor's, you just sign a chit and you're done. This is called bulk billing. But our current stingy government tried to cut their expenditure by cutting back on bulk-billing and discouraging people from going to the doctor - they stopped paying bulk-billing doctors the full amount and cut it back to 85%.

The fees are set by the AMA. The government then decides what THEY think is a fair thing and sometimes there are disputes. Some doctor specialists say they aren't being paid enough to cover their expenses and so none of them bulk bill (example - anaesthetists). Very few specialists bulk bill but most of them still charge schedule fee (100%). A number charge more than schedule fee.

Where a doctor requires payment, it is generally at the time of the appointment. WE DO NOT PAY TO WAIT AND SEE A DOCTOR as I know some of you do (that is appalling). But when we pay on the day, we can then go round to a Medicare office (most pharmacies double as Medicare offices also) and get reimbursed immediately to our bank accounts. We get reimbursed 100% of schedule fee.

Hospital - public hospital is free. For everyone. But it is also overcrowded. Still, we do fare better than a lot of you in the US in this example.
Private hospital - to avoid the long waiting lists or for elective surgery - you pay a lot. It costs, but you get a lot of it back with private health cover. Some health funds have hospitals "on their books" so if you go there, it's all taken care of and you're not out of pocket.

We have private cover as well as (of course) Medicare. We don't HAVE to use our private cover if we don't want to - when difficult child 3 was admitted with croup when he was 2, we chose to go public. This mean we had to take whichever doctor got assigned to him, but we didn't care, we just wanted him treated. and we walked out on discharge with not a cent to pay.

The drawbacks of our system - the government is constantly cutting it back to barer bones. Plus, we have no dental cover and I think we should. Cost-wise (to the country) you need to have really good paperwork and scrutiny in place to avoid blowing the budget, but it is working for us.

The positive side - we have a lot of programs in place designed to keep people healthy (and thereby cut government budget costs). And it's good to know that when you get sick and you're already facing loss of income, you don't have to also face huge medical bills, if you can't afford them. You can get a heart transplant (or anything else non-elective)on Medicare. You can't get a facelift on Medicare though. That's private health insurance and even THEY won't cover that sort of elective surgery, without a good reason.

Our system is similar to New Zealand's. It's almost identical. Because of our larger population, ours is more regulated and more carefully scrutinised. A lot of past problems with it (mostly to do with the system being exploited and costing more than it should) have been fixed.

They probably won't show "Sicko" in Australia, although we did get to see "Bowling for Columbine". I think we SHOULD see it - Aussies need to know how good we DO have it, so we will stop whining.

I really hope something positive comes out of this for you all.

Marg

 

[goldenguru]

^^^^^

I wanna move to Australia ...

 

[weaselqt]

One of the news chanels (20/20, Primetime, 60 minutes - not sure) showed that people in Canada wait in lines that were horrendously long - days long - just to see a doctor and waiting lists were 2 years long. Is that really true?

It also showed many Canadians who came to the states for healthcare because they would have died if they stayed on the waiting list.

Just wondering if any of this is true or just what they want us to hear or see.

 

[jamrobmic]

I know John Stossel interviewed Michael Moore on 20/20, but I only saw part of the interview. I did find this article:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3580676&page=1

 

[donna723]

There are so many people who fall through the cracks like that!

My son FINALLY has decent medical insurance, after working various jobs for the last several years. One place he worked offered insurance but he had to be there almost a year before he was "eligible". During this year of waiting to be "eligible", he developed a hernia that still hasn't been repaired! The job he worked at the longest technically offered medical insurance to their employees. But he paid them so little and the insurance was so expensive, none of them could afford to get it.

My brothers family is the same way. He lost his insurance at work when the business owner decided not to offer it any more. They all received a $2 hr. raise and lost their insurance! His wife works at the school in the cafeteria. Since she is an employee of the county, she is eligible for the same insurance that the teachers have. But it's not cheap. And on her small salary, the premiums would eat up the better part of what she makes!

When people talk about the "uninsured", they're not all people who spend their days sitting on a park bench and their nights in the homeless shelter!