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The Denial is Just Shocking
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 287410" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>I'm not taking sides here. I think there's only one side - WSM's.</p><p></p><p>WSM - your husand is lying to you. So you want to know how to tell when he's lying? Watch his mouth - if his lips are moving, then he's lying.</p><p></p><p>I've been following your threads on this and like a number of others, I'm really worried for you. Anything you can do here is being actively undermined. Even your own belief in yourself is being undermined. Along the way your safety is being put on the back seat.</p><p></p><p>In some ways you are too close to see everything. But the rest of us, especially those who have backtracked threough your threads as you report this stuff, we can see some really scary things.</p><p></p><p>I'm going from memory here, plus the post at the beginning of this thread.</p><p></p><p>First - the therapist and psychiatrist. husband took the boy and reported back to you. What husband said worried you and you posted here; surely the psychiatrist & therapist could see this? Why did they support husband in his denial and why couldn't they see how scary difficult child is?</p><p>Answer - they DID see, they DO see, but husband has twisted his reporting of this. Maybe husband really does believe that they think difficult child is an innocent and you are the devil incarnate; but you have now seen their reaction for yourself. Some people can raise denial to the level where they truly beleive what they want and mentally discard anything else. Others (and I suspect your husband is in this category) will manufacture the 'truth' to suit their own wishes. And some will then go on to believe their own invented stories even when they are so ridiculous they cannot be maintained.</p><p></p><p>Now to the drugs at camp - I repeat what I said back then. husband was the one who spoke to the cops. husband was the one who told you what the cops said. husband made sure nobody else could tell you any of this, he has control of this story too.</p><p>You know this - you need to keep this in the back of your mind. Because you keep falling back on "Why would the police say this?"</p><p>Answer - the police DIDN'T say this. husband did. It is husband who has told YOU what HE says the police said.</p><p>I didn't realise that your older son and his girlfriend were potential witnesses to the police interview. Why would husband shoo them away? Maybe he was trying to protect them, but also maybe he was trying to make sure there would be nobody to report to you a different story than the one husband wanted to tell you. Also, husband was busy trying to convince the police that this was just an isolated case of a kid who had maybe been set up by someone, rather than a problem kid who keeps doing the same thing over and over, and who has also made threats. </p><p></p><p>So you both went to the therapist. You told your story and asked the questions husband must have suspected you would ask (tell me - did he work very hard to convince you that you didn't need to go, or that maybe you could cancel the appointment because the guy's not doing anything anyway? He IS doing his utmost to discredit the guy or in some other way make anything the therapist says or does is worthless).</p><p>So you expressed your concerns, the therapist said nothing (he should have said something - why the heck not?) but his face spoke volumes.</p><p>AND husband ATTACKED YOU FOR IT.</p><p></p><p>You did nothing wrong. Nothing was said by therapist. You COULD hsve turned to husband and said, "Why did you tell me this when it's clearly not true?" but you didn't. So what does husband do? If he was merely into denial, he would have accedpted gratefully your silence and lack fo questioning. But instead, he attacks. He accuses YOU of not believing him, he basically accuses you of disloyalty simply for oticing an expression on the therapist's face.</p><p>For pete's sake!</p><p></p><p>THAT IS ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR. </p><p></p><p>Let's assume for a mad minute that husband is simply a misunderstood person whose understanding of what therapist said is limited. Maybe husband misheard, or maybe therapist did change what he said. Maybe husband is telling the truth as he knows it.</p><p>SO WHY ATTACK? He attacked, because he KNOWS he is lying to you and he is desperate for his lie to be upheld. The lie has been directly challenged (in husband's mind - guilty conscience has amplified the therapist response in husband's mind) and he HAS to keep you off balance. The best way to keep you off balance is to attack you, to accuse you and then to make you choose - believe him, or me.</p><p></p><p>Now look at what this means for difficult child - for husband, you must believe him. That is far more important to him than difficult child's welfare. It's more important to him than your welfare. It's more important to him than anything else or anyoone else.</p><p></p><p>It doesn't matter if you're in danger. It doesn't even matter if he (husband) is in danger. He could go to his grave, murdered by his son (or he could see you murdered) and it would be OK as long as his lies were believed. </p><p></p><p>This sort of lie starts out small. But it grows and gets bigger until it gets to a point where lies have compounded too far and to admit to it is to admit to all, te whole pile of it comes crashing down. He has too much invested in his own integrity, which is laughable when you consider that it has happened because of lack of integrity. If only he had been honest with hiself and with others people form the begining - but he didn't. He has done it for the highest ideals, he tells himself - he is trying to protect his son. But he is in fact causing the problem, he is enabling damaging behaviour because he is himself doing damage by lying and actively preventing treatment which could help.</p><p></p><p>WSM - you've been brainwashed by him and you're only just starting to come out of it. You know he is lying to you, but yet when he reports to you what someone else said, you continue to believe his version of events.</p><p></p><p>And you wonder why it all seems so inconsistent, you wonder why you sometimes feel you may be the crazy one after all.</p><p></p><p>Making you feel crazy is alo part of the abuse. He probably doesn't mean to be abusive, but again, he must now protect his own integrity and it is a higher priority than your welfare, your son's welfare, his son's welfare. he has convinced himself he is doing the right things. Frankly, he could convince himself that black is white.</p><p></p><p>Stop fighting it. Walk away.</p><p></p><p>Two things to consider - </p><p></p><p>1) husband is lying to you plus he is actively interfering with any possible therapy or intervention for his son. He is constantly rescuing his son from 'trouble' (aka a path to intervention and help) and to do so has to increasingly deny the seriousness of it all. The end resukt will not be pretty, people will get hurt and I'm afraid you and maybe your kids are at the top of difficult child's likely hit list. husband has put your welfare behind his own ego. You are in danger. You cannot achieve anything while you are there, except harm to yourself. While you are there, husband has to constantly fight your disbelief by manufacturing more and more elaborate excuses. With you gone there is nobody to face him with questions, but also nobody that he needs to lie to and that actually could make it easier for husband to get help.</p><p>It won't happen while you're there. It may not happen even when you're gone, but it is a fainter possibility. If you're gone, it should no longer matter to you, anyway.</p><p></p><p>OR</p><p></p><p>2) husband is right. You are going crazy. difficult child is a sadly misunderstood kid, someone in the home (probably you in some latered reality state) is out to sabotage this kid who just wants to do well in life. You are clashing with difficult child, husband has to choose to support his child rather than a wife who is unstable. husband hopes you will get yourself help and stop tormenting him and his child. He has to constantly defend tis child against your accusations and he's tired of it. You need to get out of their lives and give them some space. While you are there, friction could cause dangerous conflict. </p><p></p><p>Both scenarios - you need to leave.</p><p></p><p>I don't beleive scenario 2, by the way, but I list it because that is the version that husband will try to 'sell' if you stick around much longer. Chances are he's already using it. He's probably already told this to the cops, to therapist and psychiatrist. He may have been saying it to the cops when your son was about to walk up and overhear, and that would never do.</p><p></p><p>WSM, get yourself out. You can do it gently, kindly and safely - simply tell husband that you feel he and difficult child need time away from you, just itme to spend together as father and son. Maybe without you there to push against, difficult child may relax a little. That can be your story, anyway.</p><p></p><p>After all - this whole problem is down to stories. Play husband at his own game, if it will get you out of there safely.</p><p></p><p>If you really love this guy and there is hope for this relationship - you need time apart now to sort this out. You won't sort it out as things are.</p><p></p><p>If this relationship is meant to work out, then such a separation as I suggest will not be a problem. But if the relationship is dead in the water, you need to stop wasting time on it and instead get back to a good and happy life independently.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 287410, member: 1991"] I'm not taking sides here. I think there's only one side - WSM's. WSM - your husand is lying to you. So you want to know how to tell when he's lying? Watch his mouth - if his lips are moving, then he's lying. I've been following your threads on this and like a number of others, I'm really worried for you. Anything you can do here is being actively undermined. Even your own belief in yourself is being undermined. Along the way your safety is being put on the back seat. In some ways you are too close to see everything. But the rest of us, especially those who have backtracked threough your threads as you report this stuff, we can see some really scary things. I'm going from memory here, plus the post at the beginning of this thread. First - the therapist and psychiatrist. husband took the boy and reported back to you. What husband said worried you and you posted here; surely the psychiatrist & therapist could see this? Why did they support husband in his denial and why couldn't they see how scary difficult child is? Answer - they DID see, they DO see, but husband has twisted his reporting of this. Maybe husband really does believe that they think difficult child is an innocent and you are the devil incarnate; but you have now seen their reaction for yourself. Some people can raise denial to the level where they truly beleive what they want and mentally discard anything else. Others (and I suspect your husband is in this category) will manufacture the 'truth' to suit their own wishes. And some will then go on to believe their own invented stories even when they are so ridiculous they cannot be maintained. Now to the drugs at camp - I repeat what I said back then. husband was the one who spoke to the cops. husband was the one who told you what the cops said. husband made sure nobody else could tell you any of this, he has control of this story too. You know this - you need to keep this in the back of your mind. Because you keep falling back on "Why would the police say this?" Answer - the police DIDN'T say this. husband did. It is husband who has told YOU what HE says the police said. I didn't realise that your older son and his girlfriend were potential witnesses to the police interview. Why would husband shoo them away? Maybe he was trying to protect them, but also maybe he was trying to make sure there would be nobody to report to you a different story than the one husband wanted to tell you. Also, husband was busy trying to convince the police that this was just an isolated case of a kid who had maybe been set up by someone, rather than a problem kid who keeps doing the same thing over and over, and who has also made threats. So you both went to the therapist. You told your story and asked the questions husband must have suspected you would ask (tell me - did he work very hard to convince you that you didn't need to go, or that maybe you could cancel the appointment because the guy's not doing anything anyway? He IS doing his utmost to discredit the guy or in some other way make anything the therapist says or does is worthless). So you expressed your concerns, the therapist said nothing (he should have said something - why the heck not?) but his face spoke volumes. AND husband ATTACKED YOU FOR IT. You did nothing wrong. Nothing was said by therapist. You COULD hsve turned to husband and said, "Why did you tell me this when it's clearly not true?" but you didn't. So what does husband do? If he was merely into denial, he would have accedpted gratefully your silence and lack fo questioning. But instead, he attacks. He accuses YOU of not believing him, he basically accuses you of disloyalty simply for oticing an expression on the therapist's face. For pete's sake! THAT IS ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR. Let's assume for a mad minute that husband is simply a misunderstood person whose understanding of what therapist said is limited. Maybe husband misheard, or maybe therapist did change what he said. Maybe husband is telling the truth as he knows it. SO WHY ATTACK? He attacked, because he KNOWS he is lying to you and he is desperate for his lie to be upheld. The lie has been directly challenged (in husband's mind - guilty conscience has amplified the therapist response in husband's mind) and he HAS to keep you off balance. The best way to keep you off balance is to attack you, to accuse you and then to make you choose - believe him, or me. Now look at what this means for difficult child - for husband, you must believe him. That is far more important to him than difficult child's welfare. It's more important to him than your welfare. It's more important to him than anything else or anyoone else. It doesn't matter if you're in danger. It doesn't even matter if he (husband) is in danger. He could go to his grave, murdered by his son (or he could see you murdered) and it would be OK as long as his lies were believed. This sort of lie starts out small. But it grows and gets bigger until it gets to a point where lies have compounded too far and to admit to it is to admit to all, te whole pile of it comes crashing down. He has too much invested in his own integrity, which is laughable when you consider that it has happened because of lack of integrity. If only he had been honest with hiself and with others people form the begining - but he didn't. He has done it for the highest ideals, he tells himself - he is trying to protect his son. But he is in fact causing the problem, he is enabling damaging behaviour because he is himself doing damage by lying and actively preventing treatment which could help. WSM - you've been brainwashed by him and you're only just starting to come out of it. You know he is lying to you, but yet when he reports to you what someone else said, you continue to believe his version of events. And you wonder why it all seems so inconsistent, you wonder why you sometimes feel you may be the crazy one after all. Making you feel crazy is alo part of the abuse. He probably doesn't mean to be abusive, but again, he must now protect his own integrity and it is a higher priority than your welfare, your son's welfare, his son's welfare. he has convinced himself he is doing the right things. Frankly, he could convince himself that black is white. Stop fighting it. Walk away. Two things to consider - 1) husband is lying to you plus he is actively interfering with any possible therapy or intervention for his son. He is constantly rescuing his son from 'trouble' (aka a path to intervention and help) and to do so has to increasingly deny the seriousness of it all. The end resukt will not be pretty, people will get hurt and I'm afraid you and maybe your kids are at the top of difficult child's likely hit list. husband has put your welfare behind his own ego. You are in danger. You cannot achieve anything while you are there, except harm to yourself. While you are there, husband has to constantly fight your disbelief by manufacturing more and more elaborate excuses. With you gone there is nobody to face him with questions, but also nobody that he needs to lie to and that actually could make it easier for husband to get help. It won't happen while you're there. It may not happen even when you're gone, but it is a fainter possibility. If you're gone, it should no longer matter to you, anyway. OR 2) husband is right. You are going crazy. difficult child is a sadly misunderstood kid, someone in the home (probably you in some latered reality state) is out to sabotage this kid who just wants to do well in life. You are clashing with difficult child, husband has to choose to support his child rather than a wife who is unstable. husband hopes you will get yourself help and stop tormenting him and his child. He has to constantly defend tis child against your accusations and he's tired of it. You need to get out of their lives and give them some space. While you are there, friction could cause dangerous conflict. Both scenarios - you need to leave. I don't beleive scenario 2, by the way, but I list it because that is the version that husband will try to 'sell' if you stick around much longer. Chances are he's already using it. He's probably already told this to the cops, to therapist and psychiatrist. He may have been saying it to the cops when your son was about to walk up and overhear, and that would never do. WSM, get yourself out. You can do it gently, kindly and safely - simply tell husband that you feel he and difficult child need time away from you, just itme to spend together as father and son. Maybe without you there to push against, difficult child may relax a little. That can be your story, anyway. After all - this whole problem is down to stories. Play husband at his own game, if it will get you out of there safely. If you really love this guy and there is hope for this relationship - you need time apart now to sort this out. You won't sort it out as things are. If this relationship is meant to work out, then such a separation as I suggest will not be a problem. But if the relationship is dead in the water, you need to stop wasting time on it and instead get back to a good and happy life independently. Marg [/QUOTE]
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