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The win and the loss
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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 676983" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>I do not know if I agree. Maybe I do, but I will think about it. The group that has hunted down nazi war criminals for the last 60 plus years, does so for a reason. To hold them accountable. On principle. Not against the individual perpetrators.</p><p></p><p>The oral history project funded by Steven Spielberg is about honoring the memory of those affected but also never forgetting the crimes.</p><p></p><p>The groups that try to find all of the stolen artwork and track down title to real estate that was seized do so not only to restore it but to right a wrong. Abstractly. for principles.</p><p></p><p>We hold our children responsible for their acts not just to protect ourselves and them, but because it is the right thing to do. Because we believe intrinsically in right and wrong.</p><p></p><p>At the heart of things holding a boundary is about right or wrong. I will not allow you to wrong me. I will not allow myself to wrong you.</p><p>When there have been wrongs that have accumulated for a period of time that have built up, they have built up for a reason. One side has been or has felt unable to respond appropriately.</p><p></p><p>There is blame there. And often times that blame has been turned against the self.</p><p></p><p>(I went away for a few minutes and came back. I am thinking here of when I went to that conference around 1980 where journalists were telling people for almost the first time about the atrocities being committed in Latin America during the dictatorship. And my relative indifference. I mean, I was an emphatic and left wing type person. Of course I would think it was a wrong thing...but I was more wrapped up in myself, to care all that much. I do not judge myself harshly. Gratefully, I have changed somewhat. (I have to leave again for a few minutes. Sorry.)</p><p></p><p>Now what would be the reasons that somebody would allow other people to victimize or to otherwise mistreat them?</p><p></p><p><em>Overpowered would be one. Held against their will, another. Tricked. Dependent.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Or the generalized perceived incapacity to see how to defend themselves or to be aware or believe that they can. </em></p><p></p><p>I believe that the passage I have put in italics pretty much sums up the situation of a child, and the adult child who has been victimized.</p><p></p><p>The issues here are guilt and shame. Whose fault was it? Who is to blame? Who is responsible?</p><p> There is the legacy of "fault." "It must have been my fault." That Mama hurt me. And still does. That Papa left me. And then degrades my memory.</p><p></p><p>But we were vulnerable to them, Cedar. We were babies. Their babies.</p><p></p><p>We were not there with our shotgun ready by the door to defend, either ourselves or our children. We are learning how to do so. First we have to sort out responsibility. Is it is or someone else? Then and only then can we be strong enough to have the boundary. And the shotgun. If we do not sort it out first. We will probably shoot ourselves with the gun.</p><p></p><p>I have a shotgun. No bullets. I may well get some. That is not a joke.</p><p></p><p>If we do not sort things out, as we are doing, we blame ourselves and stay just as powerless as we ever were.</p><p></p><p>We are talking trauma here. As well as boundaries. The residue of the past. The garbage that must be cleaned up. It is not only a question of: protecting myself and my family <em>now</em>.</p><p></p><p>A putrid mess must be cleaned up and responsibility must be determined. First of all, there is the need to stop blaming oneself. <em>It is not my fault</em>.</p><p></p><p> Those culpable must be identified and held responsible. Not for punishment. Not to determine guilt. Not to judge. But to clean up the moral mess. The swamp that has developed in our own minds.</p><p></p><p>There is a famous book by an anthropologist, long dead, named Mary Douglas, called "Purity and Danger." The book talks about the line between clean and unclean which is a basic boundary in all human society. There is so much interesting in it that does not pertain here, like how we are attracted to the unclean/to danger and want to test it/negotiate it. I do need to go back and read the book.</p><p></p><p>I digress. There are some of us who have putrid messes in our psyches. That need to be cleaned up. There are moral morasses in our history that people cannot stop studying because of the lack of clarity, messiness, that they feel compelled to sort out. World War I, for one, is such a topic. Who was responsible?</p><p></p><p>Everybody responsible is long dead. There is no possibility of judgment, of punishment. But clarity is wanted. To understand. There is the believe that with clarity and understanding will come the possibility of power and understanding.</p><p></p><p>How is our questing different? </p><p>Anger is a screen emotion. To cover up, to protect something enormously more intolerably painful to feel. Like incredible pain. Like tremendous pain, dependency, a nothingness that comes from fear of abandonment. That would come close to feeling non-existent or dead. Babies die of this.Yes.</p><p></p><p>M's sister comes to mind, the evil one, who secretly plotted to put her parents' home in her own name (that actually had been purchased by M. Which for him does not enter into things one bit.)</p><p></p><p>He has been at the point the last month or so where he will not talk about it anymore or allow anybody else around him do so (except the people culpable, who still need to sort things out). But he does not. Done is done. We go forward. Enough.</p><p></p><p>But here, everything is on the table. Except for the need of those who did it, to take responsibility. Do the next right thing. All the rest of us have no part of it. He will not listen.</p><p></p><p>M last night told me this: You have to make a choice, to decide to live or die. Because this not sleeping is not good. Maybe you have reached the point where you have nothing more to do in this life. And have lived enough. Realized your dreams. Done what you needed. And you can let go. Maybe not.</p><p></p><p>But this staying up through the night is not for me or for you. I cannot sleep. You do not sleep. And in the night awake and asleep you call for your mother. This has got to stop.</p><p></p><p>"What do I say?"(I did not know that I do this.) I told him I had been having a hard week, this past week.)</p><p></p><p>"You cry 'Mama' through the night."</p><p></p><p>And M continued "All of this that you have suffered these past more than two years was in you. It was always there. All of it is making you stronger. Accept that and let your mother go. She loved you and you love her."</p><p></p><p>Me: "My mother did not love me that much."</p><p></p><p>M: "Yes she did."</p><p></p><p>So what I am saying is this: Each of us always was strong enough, is strong enough to face what we must, and what we choose to do. I was always strong enough to be with my mother. Although I felt otherwise. I could have loved her and protected myself. Actually I did. But too much. I need not have done so.</p><p></p><p>I agree with Insane. We are strong enough to love. We always were. We are now. It is a decision. I never realized this.</p><p></p><p>COPA</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 676983, member: 18958"] I do not know if I agree. Maybe I do, but I will think about it. The group that has hunted down nazi war criminals for the last 60 plus years, does so for a reason. To hold them accountable. On principle. Not against the individual perpetrators. The oral history project funded by Steven Spielberg is about honoring the memory of those affected but also never forgetting the crimes. The groups that try to find all of the stolen artwork and track down title to real estate that was seized do so not only to restore it but to right a wrong. Abstractly. for principles. We hold our children responsible for their acts not just to protect ourselves and them, but because it is the right thing to do. Because we believe intrinsically in right and wrong. At the heart of things holding a boundary is about right or wrong. I will not allow you to wrong me. I will not allow myself to wrong you. When there have been wrongs that have accumulated for a period of time that have built up, they have built up for a reason. One side has been or has felt unable to respond appropriately. There is blame there. And often times that blame has been turned against the self. (I went away for a few minutes and came back. I am thinking here of when I went to that conference around 1980 where journalists were telling people for almost the first time about the atrocities being committed in Latin America during the dictatorship. And my relative indifference. I mean, I was an emphatic and left wing type person. Of course I would think it was a wrong thing...but I was more wrapped up in myself, to care all that much. I do not judge myself harshly. Gratefully, I have changed somewhat. (I have to leave again for a few minutes. Sorry.) Now what would be the reasons that somebody would allow other people to victimize or to otherwise mistreat them? [I]Overpowered would be one. Held against their will, another. Tricked. Dependent. Or the generalized perceived incapacity to see how to defend themselves or to be aware or believe that they can. [/I] I believe that the passage I have put in italics pretty much sums up the situation of a child, and the adult child who has been victimized. The issues here are guilt and shame. Whose fault was it? Who is to blame? Who is responsible? There is the legacy of "fault." "It must have been my fault." That Mama hurt me. And still does. That Papa left me. And then degrades my memory. But we were vulnerable to them, Cedar. We were babies. Their babies. We were not there with our shotgun ready by the door to defend, either ourselves or our children. We are learning how to do so. First we have to sort out responsibility. Is it is or someone else? Then and only then can we be strong enough to have the boundary. And the shotgun. If we do not sort it out first. We will probably shoot ourselves with the gun. I have a shotgun. No bullets. I may well get some. That is not a joke. If we do not sort things out, as we are doing, we blame ourselves and stay just as powerless as we ever were. We are talking trauma here. As well as boundaries. The residue of the past. The garbage that must be cleaned up. It is not only a question of: protecting myself and my family [I]now[/I]. A putrid mess must be cleaned up and responsibility must be determined. First of all, there is the need to stop blaming oneself. [I]It is not my fault[/I]. Those culpable must be identified and held responsible. Not for punishment. Not to determine guilt. Not to judge. But to clean up the moral mess. The swamp that has developed in our own minds. There is a famous book by an anthropologist, long dead, named Mary Douglas, called "Purity and Danger." The book talks about the line between clean and unclean which is a basic boundary in all human society. There is so much interesting in it that does not pertain here, like how we are attracted to the unclean/to danger and want to test it/negotiate it. I do need to go back and read the book. I digress. There are some of us who have putrid messes in our psyches. That need to be cleaned up. There are moral morasses in our history that people cannot stop studying because of the lack of clarity, messiness, that they feel compelled to sort out. World War I, for one, is such a topic. Who was responsible? Everybody responsible is long dead. There is no possibility of judgment, of punishment. But clarity is wanted. To understand. There is the believe that with clarity and understanding will come the possibility of power and understanding. How is our questing different? Anger is a screen emotion. To cover up, to protect something enormously more intolerably painful to feel. Like incredible pain. Like tremendous pain, dependency, a nothingness that comes from fear of abandonment. That would come close to feeling non-existent or dead. Babies die of this.Yes. M's sister comes to mind, the evil one, who secretly plotted to put her parents' home in her own name (that actually had been purchased by M. Which for him does not enter into things one bit.) He has been at the point the last month or so where he will not talk about it anymore or allow anybody else around him do so (except the people culpable, who still need to sort things out). But he does not. Done is done. We go forward. Enough. But here, everything is on the table. Except for the need of those who did it, to take responsibility. Do the next right thing. All the rest of us have no part of it. He will not listen. M last night told me this: You have to make a choice, to decide to live or die. Because this not sleeping is not good. Maybe you have reached the point where you have nothing more to do in this life. And have lived enough. Realized your dreams. Done what you needed. And you can let go. Maybe not. But this staying up through the night is not for me or for you. I cannot sleep. You do not sleep. And in the night awake and asleep you call for your mother. This has got to stop. "What do I say?"(I did not know that I do this.) I told him I had been having a hard week, this past week.) "You cry 'Mama' through the night." And M continued "All of this that you have suffered these past more than two years was in you. It was always there. All of it is making you stronger. Accept that and let your mother go. She loved you and you love her." Me: "My mother did not love me that much." M: "Yes she did." So what I am saying is this: Each of us always was strong enough, is strong enough to face what we must, and what we choose to do. I was always strong enough to be with my mother. Although I felt otherwise. I could have loved her and protected myself. Actually I did. But too much. I need not have done so. I agree with Insane. We are strong enough to love. We always were. We are now. It is a decision. I never realized this. COPA [/QUOTE]
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