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Family of Origin
The win and the loss
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<blockquote data-quote="Copabanana" data-source="post: 677028" data-attributes="member: 18958"><p>Yes. This is the essential truth. We define ourselves by our compromises. </p><p>My mother always forgot what was to her disadvantage to remember, by that I mean, the kindness or consideration she extended, without thinking about her own best interest first and foremost. </p><p></p><p>With my mother it was what you say, Cedar, she really did not think about the other, except in the moment, which was to say to manipulate. By manipulate I mean to be charming. My mother was warm and charming...in the moment. While it was like a warm bath to feel it...it was just that...it could soon grow cold and go down the drain.</p><p></p><p>What always won out was her self-interest. And like she did at the end with her boyfriend of 20 plus years when he no longer served her, said, "for what?" Ultimately her alliances were unprincipled ones. She did not see life in any other way as a series of moments that were defined by her self-interest at that moment, as she saw it. </p><p></p><p>With my mother it really was "nothing personal." Except for the incapacity for real loyalty <em>even to herself</em> perhaps essentially to herself, she would have been a great general or CEO.</p><p></p><p>It is just, as you say, Cedar, these were our mothers, not Donald Trump. </p><p>I believe the sense of no intrinsic value we concluded or inferred from the way we were considered, treated, compromised, or disregarded. I believe our mothers love us and loved us as they were able, limited by the kinds of people they are or were. </p><p></p><p>That is why M tells me my mother loved me. He does not have the expectation that she be another type of person. She loved me as she could. That is the important thing to accept now. Cedar, especially. Your mother loves you as she can. She cannot love you in any other way than she is able. </p><p></p><p>But you can love yourself in that way. That is what we are learning here.</p><p>Yes. This is exactly the truth of it. We had mothers who were invested, indeed, obsessed perhaps, with establishing their primacy, and their interests. Always.</p><p></p><p>I believe, Cedar, your mother and my own were the most similar. Selfishness. Loveliness. Charm and warmth, when it served them. Intense coldness when it did not. Capable of kindness. But essentially Machiavellian. Brilliant. Power-seeking. Supreme self-confidence. In the case of my mother, self-indulgence and drama. With your mother, I do not think so. </p><p></p><p>My sister emulated this, except with the drama and self-indulgence. Adding cruelty and an intense competitiveness. </p><p></p><p>These are types of people. My mother over and over again said she should not have been a mother. That she regretted it intensely. </p><p></p><p>The unkindness to say this to her daughter, she never saw. Because she meant, it was all too much trouble, especially because the daughters are ungrateful. Not conforming to the expectation of unconditional love and devotion for the mother.</p><p></p><p>My mother felt the love normal mothers bestow on their children...was due her.</p><p></p><p>I forgive her. She could not do better, the person who she was. Perhaps this is what Insane is getting at. They could not do better, the people who they are or were. </p><p></p><p>Perhaps that is why the nation of people who are the real Germany is constantly soul searching and always tries to do the most moral thing now. They are trying to root out the essential character flaw that enabled them to perpetrate world war and genocide. By their consciousness of all potential options to respond, not what comes naturally in the "German National Character."</p><p></p><p>COPA</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Copabanana, post: 677028, member: 18958"] Yes. This is the essential truth. We define ourselves by our compromises. My mother always forgot what was to her disadvantage to remember, by that I mean, the kindness or consideration she extended, without thinking about her own best interest first and foremost. With my mother it was what you say, Cedar, she really did not think about the other, except in the moment, which was to say to manipulate. By manipulate I mean to be charming. My mother was warm and charming...in the moment. While it was like a warm bath to feel it...it was just that...it could soon grow cold and go down the drain. What always won out was her self-interest. And like she did at the end with her boyfriend of 20 plus years when he no longer served her, said, "for what?" Ultimately her alliances were unprincipled ones. She did not see life in any other way as a series of moments that were defined by her self-interest at that moment, as she saw it. With my mother it really was "nothing personal." Except for the incapacity for real loyalty [I]even to herself[/I] perhaps essentially to herself, she would have been a great general or CEO. It is just, as you say, Cedar, these were our mothers, not Donald Trump. I believe the sense of no intrinsic value we concluded or inferred from the way we were considered, treated, compromised, or disregarded. I believe our mothers love us and loved us as they were able, limited by the kinds of people they are or were. That is why M tells me my mother loved me. He does not have the expectation that she be another type of person. She loved me as she could. That is the important thing to accept now. Cedar, especially. Your mother loves you as she can. She cannot love you in any other way than she is able. But you can love yourself in that way. That is what we are learning here. Yes. This is exactly the truth of it. We had mothers who were invested, indeed, obsessed perhaps, with establishing their primacy, and their interests. Always. I believe, Cedar, your mother and my own were the most similar. Selfishness. Loveliness. Charm and warmth, when it served them. Intense coldness when it did not. Capable of kindness. But essentially Machiavellian. Brilliant. Power-seeking. Supreme self-confidence. In the case of my mother, self-indulgence and drama. With your mother, I do not think so. My sister emulated this, except with the drama and self-indulgence. Adding cruelty and an intense competitiveness. These are types of people. My mother over and over again said she should not have been a mother. That she regretted it intensely. The unkindness to say this to her daughter, she never saw. Because she meant, it was all too much trouble, especially because the daughters are ungrateful. Not conforming to the expectation of unconditional love and devotion for the mother. My mother felt the love normal mothers bestow on their children...was due her. I forgive her. She could not do better, the person who she was. Perhaps this is what Insane is getting at. They could not do better, the people who they are or were. Perhaps that is why the nation of people who are the real Germany is constantly soul searching and always tries to do the most moral thing now. They are trying to root out the essential character flaw that enabled them to perpetrate world war and genocide. By their consciousness of all potential options to respond, not what comes naturally in the "German National Character." COPA [/QUOTE]
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