Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Interesting, because she has not really experienced bigotry, but she still knows it's there.

Both granddaughters have Native blood. Each has experienced racism of a hurtful, to the core kind. One experienced having a man come up to her as though he believed her beautiful, look closely into her eyes and say: "Oh. I thought you had blue eyes."

And I know that to someone who has never experienced it, that would mean nothing. But to someone who understands something about blue eyes and something else altogether about her own, brown eyes ~ it was hurtful. She has never forgotten it. It was a subtle form of hurt you with your own hurt that happens all the time.

Not so much a naming of who you are, but of who you are not.

Having Native grands has introduced me to my own prejudice. I did not entertain prejudicial leanings knowingly. I was surprised to find that I was prejudiced. Like it is with our FOO and the curses and messages they left us with, so it is with our own prejudice. We cannot see it until we can.

That is what is meant when people speak of white privilege. If my grands were not Native, I would not know what anyone meant when they talked about racism or prejudice, either. So, I think we cannot fault any of the sides, here. All the parties ~ even the far left and the far right ~ are part of an experiment, are part of a new way of living and helping and honoring (and hating ~ but it is honest and out in the open and that is a good thing) never tried anywhere in history. We are doing really well, I think. Problems are coming into the open and Presidents are there, and Amazing Grace is being sung for all of us.

One voice into many.

So many of us are so unhappy with so many things.

That is okay.

We have come such a far way from where we began, and we are getting there. Not just around issues of racism but around issues of economics and equality and religious freedom ~ and everywhere you look, we are taking ourselves seriously and believing we can figure out how to do this better. I am so proud to be an American, SWOT. This has never happened, before. We are doing something impossible, here in this country. It isn't perfect, but we are aiming for perfect.

There is nowhere like this country, where the fabric of our pasts and the quality of trust regarding our futures enables us to grit our teeth, dig in, and battle it out, creating lasting change in the name of decency. Of course we make mistakes. We are powerful; everything we do here, each decision made here, affects the world, for better or for worse.

But we rectify our mistakes.

We try to steer a fair and certain course.

I am like, ridiculously, gloriously proud to be an American. We are a bright and generous people. I believe in us and what is being created here; believe it is something never seen, never remotely possible, before.

Always, tyranny and even outright slavery have been legitimized. A benevolent king is still a king; benevolence can change overnight into its opposite. This country, this form of government, is a fledgling miracle.

:O)

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
So I missed the laughter and the past that we shared. Until I got very heavy into therapy and realized that the laughs we had together did not make up for her feelings that I am "crazy" or that she never stuck up for me to my mother (which she did not HAVE to do, but which I would have done for her...and which I did not think was okay).

Here is an unusual thing, SWOT. I thought my family was funny, too. I thought I missed the laughter and the brilliance of discussion, too.

I don't know why I thought that, SWOT.

As we have gone sifting through the memories, sifting through the real things that, unbelievably enough, did happen...I heard the hatred in the laughter; I saw the prejudice in the brilliant discussion, and the hatred there, too. I came to understand my entire family of origin is about, functions and draws its energy from, hatred.

It's an extraordinary thing to realize. And like always...I am so surprised at the intricacy and depth of...pathology, really; determined hatred and labeling and hurtfulness and it never, ever stops.

It is amazing to me that this could be so.

I am sharing things here that were particular to me ~ that shamed or hurt me, individually, because I want the shame and the secrecy over. But when I broaden the scope, when I sift through what they believed ~ it is all so wrong, SWOT and Copa. It has always been so deeply wrong on every level. I was thinking yesterday about the cleaning and cooking and etc that I did. I was thinking more about the way the house looked and was run when I was little, before I took up the slack there, actually. Little flashes of things that were so crazy and so dirty and so wrong...as though someone, as though the adults involved, were lazy. Or worse.

It wasn't good, SWOT and Copa.

It wasn't at all good; none of it.

Yet for years I have created a bare bones skeleton and fleshed it out with hope or with the things I created. A quiet, clean home and the smell of dinner at the end of the day, the parents soon to be home and I would do the freaking dishes, too.

What a strangeness my life has been.

I have posted before that my father called me Cinderella. Well, for heaven's sake, he must have meant it.

You cannot believe, SWOT and Copa, how strangely different all of it looks, from here; from this perspective I have now.

I like myself very much, now. That change of perspective is so amazing to me, SWOT and Copa. I am the Frenchman in the castle in Jabber's Monty Python piece, and I think of that, all the time. That is exactly how they are, my family of origin: Give us food and lodging for the night and you will be allowed to outfit yourself and your men and accompany us on a Quest for something you already have (something you freaking embody) but we don't, at your own expense and with some interchangeable one of us as King.

Or Red Queen, and how extraordinary is that, to imagine loving a murdering Red Queen.

I used to send my sister money. Just as it has been for so long with my kids, I could never feel I'd done enough because they were not okay, yet. Those are the same belief systems that enabled me to function as I did growing up. I was certain I could change everything because I've done it, before.

But they never change, my family of origin; and maybe, not my kids, either.

But I do love my kids; I love them enough to learn new ways of being for their sakes and for my own.

So that's a difference, there.

My daughter is coming, today. I talked with her yesterday. She seemed so miraculously much better than she did when I talked to her on Sunday.

My son turned 40 yesterday.

I had already sent the card. There was no thank you for his card, or for the card and money sent to the grandson whose birthday was a few days earlier.

And there was no phone call, either.

As I have posted, he did not call D H on Father's Day though he has been calling on my days. I am seeing a game here. I don't like it. I am not about to stand for him hurting D H or myself, or playing stupid games that are hurtful with the time either of us has left.

So, we did not call him on his birthday. And I didn't make us call. I would have not called him on my own.

This is very new.

I have called through these past weeks and have not been picked up. I have left messages and there has been no return call. In the past, I would have kept holding good intention and doing the freaking work of continually trying to pretend there was relationship because I loved.

Like that could ever be enough.

But I am writing my son a letter. I will share it on P.E.

So, that is what is happening, there.

Again, I cannot even express my gratitude to you both for staying with me through this long process.

Everything looks so different, from this changed perspective.

***

I am drawing back from my sister, now. When I see her, I still see her crying, but I am further away. I see the family members like a series of vignettes, each working separately and all working together like some evil engine that never stops. Heads roll. The Red Queen reigns; tyranny.

I never knew that I knew this.

I did know it, but I didn't believe it because I believed it was me who was wrong, who just couldn't bring us together.

That was never my job, any more than anything I did was, technically, my job. Those things were the jobs, the rights and the honors and the obligations, of the real mother in that family.

I can never figure out whether things would have been better or worse had my mother not worked.

In any event, I am seeing from such a changed perspective, now. I am so pleased and happy about that. I thank you both for staying with me through it, and I think we all have done amazing work, and are very brave.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
In any event, I am seeing from such a changed perspective, now. I am so pleased and happy about that. I thank you both for staying with me through it, and I think we all have done amazing work, and are very brave.
You are doing fantastic!!!! Kudos! Applause!!!!!

There is something about committing to writing that is different from talking about things. At least to me, it seems more real and vivid when I write. When I talk, the background gets in the way.

I am sure anger, bitterness, self-hatred and bigotry is at the root of all of our FOO, Cedar. Laughing at my FOO was, in a way, to me...dark humor. Making a play out of them was because I love to write and this kind of satire made me feel better...I could laugh at their ridiculousness and even take good-natured pot shots at myself, which has been a big plus in my life. I can laugh at me and this has been a major coping skill. However, laughing about me and laughing at myself with derision sometimes got skewed.

It is ok to love anyone. I love Goneboy. If I'm honest, I can't love him the way I love those who are still in my life. I don't see him and he chose to leave. But I do have love for him and that's not a bad thing. It doesn't hurt me. It gentles me.

That I can't love my mother's memory is beyond my control. You have the feelings or not. You can not force yourself to love. When she kicked me out from the grave, that did it. Now I love you. Now I don't. Weird how that happened. I sort of feel the same about my sibs, but that was a slower process. Brother sends me a letter. I don't read it, but I don't have to read it to know it is mean and not meant to reconcile or to ask for understanding. That really made me think, "Who does he think he is? He doesn't even know me. I don't know him. What does 'brother' mean anyway?" I was much nicer to him over all that Sis ever was. But the love died a slow death. I also had to face the fact that he hid from life. And that's why he wrote to me instead of calling me. He has never been able to connect with his peers well. Students, yes. Peers, no.

My sister's is more complicated. We had a very on again/off again, good again/bad again relationship, but it WAS a relationship. When she divorced her husband, she had not let me see the real her before that. I had no idea she even had thought about leaving him. She kept everything to herself as I suspect she still does to almost everyone. When I saw the real her, I didn't really want to see it. I didn't like her.

I can not bring myself to justify dating a married man who still lives with his wife and has a young child just because the wife may not find out or just because he was younger and the "attention" (her word) felt good or just because the he taught her about sex, as she claimed was not in her marriage. I can't. I know some people will think I am blowing this out of proportion, but to me it isn't a joke to date a man who still is legally married and has a two year old child too. Obviously, HE has no honor or scruples and she doesn't either. She felt not a twang of remorse or guilt and even cried a few times when he didn't call her. Her friends told her to dump him too. Wasn't just me. But I'm not sure her friends got the "married" part. To me, you don't date a man who is still married, is not filing for divorce, and is unavailable. It was not the first time I had a look at her morality, but it was the most blatant as she talked to me endlessly about him. Before that, she had done some things I found extremely immoral, but I overlooked them...even enabled her. They had nothing to do with me. They were her choices as a younger person that apparently had not gotten better as time went on. At least, not better to me, and it's hard to talk to somebody who you feel makes immoral choices. Then there was the boyfriend.

I noticed early on in that horrible relationship that no matter how much he abused her, disappointed her, lied to her and gave her NOTHING back...she did not cut off all contact with him. Now if I said something she didn't like, she was gone. But he could do anything to her and she not only didn't cut him off, but she tried to analyze him and analyze her own reasons for staying and if she thought they were on the verge of breaking up, she bescame distraught.

The difference in her standards as to how I could act or w hat I could say and how horribly HE could abuse her on a weekly basis was not lost on me. Her abuse, cut offs, claims of fake abuse were very personal and had nothing to do with the truth or she would have cut off this man too. She never called t he cops on the man either, even when he followed her to work or texted her when she claimed she didn't want him to. Was she cheating?

Anyhow, that died a slower death and a more traumatic one because I had spent all of my life pre-divorce telling myself that she was the one who survived our family sane. It was a shock to have to look at her naked, without blinders. This was somebody very screwed up a nd full of hate specifically for me. So what was good about our relationship? That we laughed sometimes?

I am happy she let me see the real her. I do not choose cheaters, drinkers (she can't go out with anybody without drinking) and people who don't like me in my life. She stands for everything I think is wrong with the way people treat one another.

Love can die.

Often when we take off the blinders and stop cheating.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I also suffered after each cut off and that was not ok either.

Was your entire family involved in discussing the cut off, in why there was a cut off, in what you had done to deserve the cut off, in how the "victimized" weak sister had to recoil in fear and protect herself from you?

That happens in my family.

Except no one is afraid.

There would never be a person afraid of me. I believed in all of us with my whole heart.

That is why the focus was on D H, I suppose.

They are quite focused on D H.

All this is changing. I am still going through it to some degree, but this is changing so rapidly I can barely believe it.

I stopped remembering the fun times, as there were less of them after her divorce and various escapades with men. Bad men. We disagreed on her lifestyle and choices and she was not ok that I disagreed.

I wonder what it would have been, to have had a real sister, a real mom or dad or family. I do love my father; he hated me too on some level, or was affected by the unified toxicity of the family, maybe.

But I do love him; I find him a decent, ethical man. Very sad; he must have been clinically depressed. Which makes sense. He too lived in a cruelly abusive situation. For all I know, he did hear the things my mother said about him when his back was turned or when, after he no longer heard well, she would say them right in front of him.

I should have taken my father in.

Had I known what I know now, I may have made that offer. He would have refused it. But at least he would have known that someone knew.

Those old fairy tales have some truth to the core of them, sometimes.

Cinderella.

Now when I think of both my brother and sister, and it becomes less and less, I remember the mean stuff. The cut offs. The cops. The names. The blame. The times they took my intentions and turned them black. They have both done this over and over again. The letter from my brother than I thankfully never read, but that I knew was meant to be mean. How my sister spent years and years cutting up my brother. She was so embarassed about him. And how my brother forgave her for all that ugliness, but wrote letters to ME.

This is happening for me too, SWOT.

I saw it, but I ~ I don't know. I suppose we do what we do believing everyone is going to pick up; the habit of hatred is as complex and as easily grown and as hard to deconstruct as the habit of love. I just need to stop feeling responsible for the choices of others. As COM posts on P.E., we have enough to deal with just keeping track of our own stuff.

Cedar, the key is oblivion. I swear by it. Now you can't do it if you can't do it. We all have to handle this our own way. But I find it much easier to do it t his way. THEY ARE TRIGGERS. They disrupt the normally peaceful life I live.

SWOT, you are right. I could not hear you, before. I see what you mean now, about triggers and emotional flashback and useless pain.

And about peace.

:O)

I knew that the more kids I had, the more love I'd have and the more love I could give and I wanted nothing more than to be a mother.

Me, too. Everything else ~ all those other facets of self I created ~ happened after the kids were in trouble.

I am still very happy with having been a mother; I wish these bad things had not happened to all of us. But a diagnosis ~ that turns out to be a real thing and I have been reading about it now in a different way. One of the things I read is that having a child with a diagnosis like that is among the top three most stressful things a family will ever go through.

Huh. We sure have been through it. I was talking with daughter about that whole diagnosis thing on Sunday. She asked how it could be that we left her alone when she was so vulnerable ~ how could it be that we turned away from her. All I could tell her were the things I post here. That if she is ever going to trust herself, she needs to do these things for herself.

Pretty much, that is what I said.

We talked about that diagnosis, and about what that means and about how I refused to believe it could be something happening that she couldn't help, especially when drugs and alcohol and bad people were concerned; always, those terrible things were part of what was happening. You know what my daughter said? She told me she did not want to believe the diagnosis, either. She said that even when that medication that could throw people into manic states was prescribed, she knew she should not take it because she had received that exact diagnosis three times, from three different doctors. But she did not tell this prescribing doctor about those diagnoses because she did not want to be labeled.

My daughter said: "I believe it now, mom. It is what it is. I try to be aware of it, but sometimes, I don't know it is happening until it is too late."

I think where I am now with that is that I do believe it. I understand it will always be with her; that it isn't something she can live right and think her way out of.

Love is not going to fix this, whatever different perspective we try to come at it from.

But at least we know, now.

SWOT, your honesty regarding your situation has been so helpful to me, here. You posted once something to the effect that your situation is what it is, and that you approach it from a position of awareness and acknowledgment and respect for your position, and for the ways it affects you.

You take responsibility for yourself and your life. It just is what it is. Nothing to be afraid of, but something to be aware of.

That helped me in my talk with my daughter Sunday night. I was able to not be protective or to disbelieve the severity of the thing, nor did I require my daughter to protect me from it.

Thank you, SWOT.

I knew that the more kids I had, the more love I'd have and the more love I could give and I wanted nothing more than to be a mother.

I really do like this.

That's why I put it in, twice.

:O)

So I got to live my dream, pretty much.

You know what, SWOT?

I did, too.

Isn't that something.

In case you wonder how I feel about Goneboy, I love him. I don't ache with that love though. I know why he had to leave and I wish him no ill. He does not feel like my child a nymore because he has been gone for so long. I do not mourn the child he had that I never met. If I'd met them, that would have been different. I figure it happened because it had to come together for HIM and I did all I could.

This is beautiful, SWOT.

I think I rambled enough this time. I hope this made some sort of sense. Had a busy work day and brain is a bit scrambled, kind of like an egg ;)

It was a beautiful post, SWOT, and so helpful to me.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I can laugh at me and this has been a major coping skill. However, laughing about me and laughing at myself with derision sometimes got skewed.

Yes, that is exactly the word, SWOT.

Derision.

That place where it slips into hatred, and everyone just keeps laughing because we thought we were having such a nice time.

Whichever of us it was who described Family Freud ~ I think it was you, SWOT. And you mentioned vampires. And that is the feel of that stage for my family or origin, too. Extreme forboding. After reading your take on how your Family Freud would go, I thought about who the villain would be for my family. I was so surprised SWOT, to realize that, just as it was for you (and will probably turn out to be for you too Copa, if you do this exercise), the villain, the person the others unite against, was me.

And I was so surprised.

That is when I went through the cleaning and etc again and again and again. How could this have been the outcome, that I would be villainized, when things in that household really were not very nice at all prior to my getting old enough to pitch in as I did.

And they weren't very nice, or very decent when my other was home even after I did those nice things I did for them. And that was a clear choice she made, and I see that, now.

I never could put those pieces together, before.

My mom victimized all of us horribly when we were too little to defend ourselves, and she continued, and continues, to victimize in the ways that she can, now.

And it was never that if I'd tried harder or known better or been better, that none of these terrible things would have happened. That never was true. My mom was the mother; she created what she chose to create, in her mothering and she chooses that same kind of thing, now.

And there was such contempt, SWOT and Copa, and such outright hatred. And I never really saw it that way at all.

One more time, I am so surprised.


It is ok to love anyone. I love Goneboy. If I'm honest, I can't love him the way I love those who are still in my life. I don't see him and he chose to leave. But I do have love for him and that's not a bad thing. It doesn't hurt me. It gentles me.

This is beautiful, and very true.

That really made me think, "Who does he think he is? He doesn't even know me. I don't know him. What does 'brother' mean anyway?" I was much nicer to him over all that Sis ever was. But the love died a slow death.

I suppose that is what is happening for me, now.

Who do they think they are?

D H and I were discussing the possibility of pathologic hatred come of hatred focused at me because the true feelings for the real mother cannot be focused on the mother.

D H was like, "Yeah! That's it. That's what I see. You never would see it. I am glad you see it, now."

So, huh.

When I saw the real her, I didn't really want to see it. I didn't like her.

I get this, SWOT. I always would wonder, when I thought this way, what kind of person thinks such things about her own mother, about her own sister.

I know some people will think I am blowing this out of proportion, but to me it isn't a joke to date a man who still is legally married and has a two year old child too. Obviously, HE has no honor or scruples and she doesn't either.

My sister did that.

Was she cheating?

You know what? I don't know how they see us. Our sisters, I mean. There are times when I remember that people in pain will take out on you things they know the true focus of their pain would never hear or allow. I always thought it was something like that going on. But I like that concept of "no cheating" very much.

I don't get to cheat myself anymore, either.

I merit respect and honesty and loyalty. If there are problems with the mother, she should be carrying them, not me. That is a piece of why the family has to have a villain to unify against. There has to be someone (your black sheep concept here, SWOT) everyone feels maybe a little less than around that, when all are unified against, each feels validated in their less than ness, reflecting to one another that if only the black sheep had never existed, they each would have lived the role the black sheep did live, for the family.

There was much currency, in Copa's way of looking at the power dynamic in dysfunctional families, to be had from being a mother, or a sister or brother, to me.

I am not just making that up, you guys.

How strange. I never looked at it that way before either, but this is very, very true, indeed.

I just reread that paragraph about your sister and the calling the cops and the telling you secrets and wanting someone to love her enough to listen and advise.

I think your sister may bear you a version of pathologic hatred too, SWOT.

Isn't that the strangest thing, that these same kinds of patterns are playing out beneath the radar in each of our families. Copa, for your sister too I think, though you would be the only one who could say for sure.

But Copa, all the signs are there for you, too.

Man, you two. How did we even come out of this able to stand up, or think, or value ourselves in any way at all?

It was a shock to have to look at her naked, without blinders. This was somebody very screwed up a nd full of hate specifically for me.

I know! What to hay?!?

Love can die.

Often when we take off the blinders and stop cheating.

I am thinking this one over long and hard. Of course we (I) could not ever feel the same about my mom or my sister, now that I have seen them naked. And I think I really do believe that they do hate me, somehow. That they mean it with all their hearts and cannot even see past it. I believe it too, that they hate D H because he protects me, because he make me invulnerable to them. They could not function without a focus for hatred. (This happens around all forms of hatred, I think ~ racism; fanaticism of any kind.)

And so they picked to focus on D H; if we had lost our marriage during this time, I would have been very vulnerable to them, indeed.

WTF

(This ~ WTF ~ is code for, "I am so surprised.)

:O)

Copa, are you here with us, this morning?

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I have to add another story, which I now find amusing.

On our second to the last try to have a relationship, Sis called me and said, "I think my life is better with you in it so I looked up borderline to see how I could get along with you."
Was your entire family involved in discussing the cut off, in why there was a cut off, in what you had done to deserve the cut off, in how the "victimized" weak sister had to recoil in fear and protect herself from you?
No. Our entire family discussed nothing with each other.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
More on her borderline education so she could get along with me. After she read a book or two she said, "I realize you are not borderline" (yep. She said it. She did. Her own mouth spoke those very words. Now she's taking it back, but she cheats.)--"but my boyfriend is borderline!"
That's what she said. Yes, she did!!! LOL! :)
You can't make this stuff up.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I wonder what it would have been, to have had a real sister, a real mom or dad or family. I do love my father; he hated me too on some level, or was affected by the unified toxicity of the family, maybe.
Our family was never unified when I was a part of it. somebody always hated somebody e lse. In my youth my mother didn't like me or my dad and my sister thought my brother was ugly and gross. So I never saw unity that may have happened far in the future, once I was not involved, and once they all lived far from one another and didn't interact so much.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
"I think my life is better with you in it so I looked up borderline to see how I could get along with you."

Oh for heaven's sake WTF. Another instance of "When did you stop beating your wife."

I do bet her life was immeasurably better with you in it. What a twist.

What a Twisted Sister.

There is a rock band called that SWOT, did you know? And the lead singer is really ugly with long blonde hair and bright blue eyeshadow and he is a skinny, skinny male with bad teeth.

Twisted Sister.

Cedar

How did we not see these terrible things that were happening to us as they happened?

WTF as someone around here is always saying.

Me.

That's who says that.

:eek:)

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Not so much a naming of who you are, but of who you are not.
My parents came from different worlds. My Dad born of Scottish immigrants. My maternal grandparents were Russian Jewish, and fled oppression from the Pale.

My mother's parents' traditional culture as much defined us as did her desire to escape it, because my grandparents in the early years were always with is.

My Dad's family had extreme prejudice against us. And I looked like my Mother. It doesn't seem like much, now, but then it was.

My Dad was one of 7 children. I was the only grandchild with brown eyes. His mother would often remind me of this, as something special. What she meant, really, was special in the sense of stigma. I knew it. Always.

Last night I googled "beautiful Jewish women." I had first googled "beautiful old Jewish women." Only Barbra Streisand came up.

When I looked at the beautiful Jewish women, I saw that the features that I have felt make me ugly, many of these women shared, too.

For a while now I have been googling "beautiful old women." I want to see if there is a chance for me, if at some point I come back from the dead.

Yet for years I have created a bare bones skeleton and fleshed it out with hope or with the things I created.
Me too, Cedar.

A quiet, clean home and the smell of dinner at the end of the day, the parents soon to be home and I would do the freaking dishes, too.
As a child, me too, Cedar. I could not sustain it for myself alone. To have a beautiful environment is for me one of the highest ideals, but I have a hard time still creating it and sustaining it for myself.

What a strangeness my life has been.
Yes, Cedar.

my father called me Cinderella.
I have felt Cinderella my whole life.

Give us food and lodging for the night and you will be allowed to outfit yourself and your men and accompany us on a Quest for something you already have
This image evoked my relationship with my therapist.

I could never feel I'd done enough because they were not okay, yet.
Yes.

Those are the same belief systems that enabled me to function as I did growing up. I was certain I could change everything because I've done it, before.
What a heavy, heavy burden. The weight of everything. ours. In my case I believed I caused all the pain, and thus, it was mine to fix. And if I could not, I deserved to die, I guess, as I have been doing now, it seems.
But they never change, my family of origin; and maybe, not my kids, either.
A death sentence, for me. To fail, over and over again.

This reminds me of a psychological concept "Soul Death." The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller, and her other books. There is a similar term, "Soul Murder", used by a man named Shengold. I read these books in the late 80's, I think. They describe what happens to children psychologically when treated with systematic abuse and neglect.

I think I will go back and look at these books.

What comes to mind now is that I have taken up and begun to do the work of a perpetrator on myself. My crime: Look at my life. My mother is dead and I have had to face the pain of a having lived a lifetime without her, my sister hates me. My father and brother, degraded, destroyed and dead.

And most of all, my son. My love for him was supposed to redeem everything. It clearly did not.
But I do love my kids; I love them enough to learn new ways of being for their sakes and for my own.
It is hard to live in this new world of mine. Where there is no hope that my love can do anything good at all with my son. Or that anything at all will work to fix or to change him. That I must live for the rest of my life, possibly, watching him struggle and flail and suffer. And do nothing at all. Because there is nothing at all that I can do that will help him.

It is a curious concept for me that I would learn to do this for love of him or myself. '

To learn a new way of being for the sake of my son, whereby I watch him flail. I watch him fail himself. I watch his disappoints and struggles. And I do nothing. Possibly for the rest of my life. And longer.

To love myself enough that I will learn a new way of being for my own sake. When I hate myself so much. Because I could not love my mother through her life and because my love failed to heal my son, enough, whereby he could love himself. And I would not love my father, and he destroyed himself. And my brother, dead. And I did not care.

Curious are both parts of this: to let him be who he is and can be. Because of love.

To love myself enough just because.

My daughter is coming, today. I talked with her yesterday. She seemed so miraculously much better
I am happy for this, Cedar. Will you tell us, I hope, a little bit about her visit. I like her so much.

I believed it was me who was wrong, who just couldn't bring us together.
Yes. This my own crime too is similar. That I could not love them enough to make them better or the relationship better, so that I could survive in it. Instead, I was killed off in each one, each relationship. Until I said I had no more lives to give.

And now with my son, I prefer to die and get it over with. Because I cannot choose to say "no more." There is no leaving here. So I must die.

that horrible relationship that no matter how much he abused her, disappointed her, lied to her and gave her NOTHING back...she did not cut off all contact with him
My therapist, SWOT.
if she thought they were on the verge of breaking up, she became distraught.
I could not tolerate leaving him completely.

I do not choose cheaters, drinkers (she can't go out with anybody without drinking) and people who don't like me in my life.
I am afraid I will never go back to work in prisons. People who work in prisons are mean to me. They are mean to everybody, but if I face it, they are particularly mean to me.

I am wondering if this means I should never go back my old work. I have been trying to go back to work for a year and a half. I have not gotten far. I have not even sent in paperwork, to try, even though there has been a prison 45 minutes from my house, desperate for people.

And I cannot get myself to send in the paperwork so that I will even be considered. I would like the money. I have spent so much money in these past 3 years.

3 years it has been since I jumped off the ledge with my mother. That makes me think of Masada, I think it is called. The ancient Jews of Masada, if I remember correctly, were trapped by invaders. And they jumped off a cliff, one by one, all of them. To maintain their beliefs and integrity and to not submit. That is what I remember of the story.

I fear I am not strong enough to return to work. On the other hand, it would be nice to return to work to prove to myself that I still am who I am. Regardless of how they treat me. That I am strong enough to be who already I am. And have been.

Love can die.

Often when we take off the blinders and stop cheating.
Love can turn into hate. I think this happened when I stopped seeing my father. I came to hate him. Maybe I always did.

how I refused to believe it could be something happening that she couldn't help, especially when drugs and alcohol and bad people were concerned
I am here with my son, in this same place. I am still here.

She told me she did not want to believe the diagnosis, either
But on some level, she did, it seems. And cared enough about herself to not take the medicine that she knew would make her manic.

How brave is your daughter.

"I believe it now, mom. It is what it is. I try to be aware of it, but sometimes, I don't know it is happening until it is too late."
Good for her, Cedar.

And good for you, too. You know now that it was not you or something you did or did not do.

I try to be aware of it, but sometimes, I don't know it is happening until it is too late.
Cedar, are we not all in this same boat?

This is the problem with us, Cedar. Remember that saying, out damn Spot. Or did I make it up or corrupt it.

I will try another metaphor then. We are always afraid, it seems we are the donkey, and the tail will be pinned on us. Original Sin.

The whole world is full of people who try to make us the donkey, so as to not be the donkey themselves. And every time, it seems, that somebody succeeds, I feel that I am being accused of the crime I know I committed.

And I never have figured out what the original crime was, except that I failed completely and miserably in making my parents happy and whole. And I failed with my son too.

But now I have an answer when I accuse myself.

I am not a donkey. I am a vulnerable, foolish ridiculous flower. With only four thorns, maximum.

How could I have ever hoped to save anybody, when I could not yet take care of myself. I had no railing to protect me. Nobody bothered to muzzle the sheep.

Foolish, foolish girl. Who had so much love and hope and trust and want and fight within her. From the start. That she tried. And tried. All alone, she tried. Defeated from the first, she tried. Seeing only with love. She tried. Nobody there to protect her.

I will care for her. I know I can. I will draw railings. I will draw a muzzle, for when she accuses herself. I will embrace her and stroke her when she is sad. This poor foolish flower. She is mine. And I will love her until she dies.

I have to go soon because I want to google Beautiful Old Jewish Women, and see if my picture comes up.

I do believe it. I understand it will always be with her; that it isn't something she can live right and think her way out of.
This touches me so, Cedar. Is it any different for any of us, Cedar?

your situation is what it is, and that you approach it from a position of awareness and acknowledgment and respect for your position, and for the ways it affects you.
A mission statement if I ever heard one, Cedar. For me, too.

You take responsibility for yourself and your life. It just is what it is. Nothing to be afraid of, but something to be aware of.
And this part, too. With my son. It is what it is.

nor did I require my daughter to protect me from it.
Yes.

Thank you Cedar and SWOT

PS I have a sock knitting book by the Twisted Sisters.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
My maternal grandparents were Russian Jewish, and fled oppression from the Pale.

What is the Pale, Copa?

For a while now I have been googling "beautiful old women." I want to see if there is a chance for me, if at some point I come back from the dead.

Well, you know the Boy Scout motto: "Be prepared."

:O)

You are coming back, Copa. We all are. And who would have believed we could do this thing.

I am so sorry about the blue eyes and the brown eyes, Copa. I can know the hurt of it because of what my granddaughters share with me about these things. Here again, I could never have known my own prejudice...or maybe, unawareness to any smallest degree would be a more appropriate phrase than something so intentional as prejudice ~ without those teachings from my grands. My abusers are blue eyed. (My sister has brown eyes and she talks about the bright haired ones ~ my brother and myself.)

That may figure in here somewhere, too.

My sister's grand is blue eyed. There was always such a fuss make of that fact. Some of my grands are blue eyed, some brown eyed. We do not have any green eyed grands, and I would like one. That is white privilege, right? Not seeing the difference. Blue eyes, red hair ~ that's me. D H has brown eyes, and is fierce-looking and beautiful to me, like a pirate.

To have a beautiful environment is for me one of the highest ideals, but I have a hard time still creating it and sustaining it for myself.

Because it is the love within it that makes it shine for us, Copa.

We will begin, in small ways, to cherish these things for ourselves, now. For me, it began with the gift of the sunrise; the birds, singing.

That was the first gift I gave to myself.

BOOM

Love, again.

:O)

I have felt Cinderella my whole life.

Here is a secret thing I have been thinking this morning, Copa.

Cinderella was the good guy.

Had she determined to remain as she was, taking joy from service, essentially, she would have been destroyed into ugliness, too. But there was a fairy godmother; for each of us, that has happened too, in a way.

We got out, after all.

We are getting out from under, now.

It is not a usual thing, for us to complain about the bad stuff. We see it differently, and we are so fortunate in that. So fortunate, Copa. You will come back. We are, each of us, here on purpose. There is something more to come, something that will happen. Whatever has gone on in all of our lives cannot really be defined. One of my favorite books, Descent Into Hell: "What more there was had not yet begun to happen."

Somehow, that feels right, here.

This image evoked my relationship with my therapist.

I don't know how you will put what happened between you and that therapist away, Copa. But I realized something last night. Had these things not happened with that therapist, I may never have stood up, at all. I was that committed to believing we could do whatever it was that needed doing. Clean a house, love a child, smile at a stranger. But there really are predators out there, Copa.

We needed to learn that lesson.

As I see it, things never cut just one way.

There was something that therapist too needed to learn, or ~ not to sound too goofy here ~ you would not have been given to him.

And, since I think these terrible betrayals that have happened to each of us were never meant to destroy us (since they haven't), then we just need to keep going. We don't have to make sense of any of it. That will all be worked out in time, maybe. They do say that, you know. The mystics, I mean.

That at the touch of Eternity, we will know.

What a heavy, heavy burden. The weight of everything. ours. In my case I believed I caused all the pain, and thus, it was mine to fix. And if I could not, I deserved to die, I guess, as I have been doing now, it seems.

It didn't feel like a weight to do those things, Copa. I'm sure it didn't feel like it to you at the time, either. A little while back, I was posting about feeling that I was carrying an impossibly heavy burden, like a cross or a burlap bag. That was shame, Copa. That is what is heavy about the things we have done so willingly, about the hatred and the hurt of it. I have been thinking of the taste of the shame in all of it too, lately. The shame in the secret of who we all were, really. The shame of getting older and knowing my mother was so different, so weirdly, meanly, horribly different from those of the other girls. The shame of my father, so sad but I never even knew it then because fathers are heroic figures to their daughters.

And he was turned against me too, Copa. My mother gave him the phone, when she insisted on that first shunning of Cedar because Cedar's D H was as he was. I have not posted this part, but during those five years of that first shunning, my mother called me at some point. She said this had gone on long enough, and that it was between my father and my D H, what had happened, and that it had nothing to do with she and I. She asked me to meet her for coffee.

I said no, that I didn't think that would be a good idea.

Those things were all lies, Copa and SWOT.

Even I knew that.

Where was I going with this.

Huh.

Oh. The weight of it. I think you are like me and like SWOT, Copa. It is only when we lose everything that we regret that we did it the way we did it. If it had worked ~ if we all were together now in some good way, I think we would never have thought again about whether what we had done for the sakes of our families, and for the sake of that family dinner ~ cost us.

So Copa, we have to battle through those feelings now. They are not appropriate feelings because they will not strengthen us.

I know what you mean though Copa, about that burden, about that heaviness.

I think I am still carrying it; I understand now that I am carrying something real for that time. There is compassion for myself there, Copa. These were very hard things, the things each of us have lived through. There is so little to be proud of, in having come of people who might have chosen differently ~ who were bright enough, certainly, to have chosen differently ~ and who chose as they did with their eyes wide open, instead.

My mom and my sister are choosing that today, Copa.

There is the proof of it. That is how we lived. That is the way they have always chosen to feel about us.

I see that same truth in the way your sister seems to feel about you, Copa.

I am so sorry this happened to you, and to me, and to SWOT.

But it's okay. Everything is going to be okay, Copa. SWOT is a little ahead of us, then here I come, getting so much better every minute it seems, and you are coming right behind and we all are neck and neck and somehow, Copa?

It matters very much that this is so.

A death sentence, for me. To fail, over and over again.

We don't know that we failed, Copa.

At the touch of Eternity, right?

And most of all, my son. My love for him was supposed to redeem everything. It clearly did not.

Only children well loved and secure feel safe enough to abuse their parents, Copa. Look at me. I was so freaking hurt and time-blasted and it took me until I was 63 to have a look at who my mother is, really.

You loved him well. He is strong enough to do what he is here to do because you loved that strength into him.

I'm so sorry, Copa. That is all we get to do.

We cannot do this for him; that would be cheating. We need to try, with all our hearts, to pull ourselves back together from the devastations of our dreams.

It's like a mother cat in a way, Copa. The reason she is safe harbor for her kittens is that she is stable, warm, purring, happy within herself and welcoming them home when they come back.

Maybe that is good imagery for me, ad for you too, Copa.

And I do nothing

Actually, I think that may not be true, Copa. We are their moms. We know they are better than to do what they are doing. We believe, Copa. That is something worthwhile, something to come home to, to find a guiding light in.

Someone who knows us better than we know ourselves believes we can do this thing.

I think for me, I have had to learn to be honest about where the kids are falling short in the here and now. I generally always say: Oh, it will be fine you are doing fine everything will be fine here is money car driver's license and etc. Now, I am saying those same positive things (because they are true, and I really do believe them, of course) but I am giving to the kids the power of change and of choice, too.

Maybe this is how they want to do it; their lives are ultimately their own creations and I need to honor that.

That is the difference now, I think.

I was not honoring their choices. I was judging their choices.

That is the difference, somehow in there in a way I have not figured out yet.

To love myself enough that I will learn a new way of being for my own sake. When I hate myself so much. Because I could not love my mother through her life and because my love failed to heal my son, enough, whereby he could love himself. And I would not love my father, and he destroyed himself. And my brother, dead. And I did not care.

You did love your mother, Copa. I remember your posting that you left to keep yourself safe and to be free of the destructive patterns of hatred in your FOO. That was why you felt so badly when she was too sick to hurt you anymore, Copa. Because you made the decision to leave and now, here it turned out she did not want to hurt you after all.

I'm sorry, Copa.

She did hurt you. Your mother is like mine in that way I think, Copa. To the degree she was able to hurt you, she did. I see that in your story. I am so sorry, Copa. You loved her.

That has to be enough, Copa.

That is all there is.

***

For your father, for the rotten jerk who was your step-father...I just think you are working hard to see through your own eyes Copa instead of theirs and that, once you do, you will hold yourself with such compassion Copa that it will break your heart wide open.

And that is when you will realize how you cherish the brave woman you are. You just can't see it yet, Copa.

I am sorry to learn of your brother's death. It seems I do remember your having posted something about that, before. I made my brother not a real person too, Copa. I had to. I could not stand the pain of him, of what was happening to him. I changed him into someone who wasn't real.

That was such a great loss for me and for you too, Copa. I hear women who have brothers they never had to choose between loving or choosing to freeze those so deep emotional connections that are usual between brother and sister.

I can touch the places I did that, Copa.

I can touch them to this minute.

If you look Copa, you will find them, too. I think that, like me too Copa, you lost your brother long years before his death.

I am so sorry, Copa. I grieve this loss for myself with a tenderness and an intensity and a sense of true loss I rarely allow. That is why I can still touch those places, those places where he is alive and vital to me one minute and the next, there is only: sad.

Nothing else, Copa.

What a horrible thing to happen to a little kid. For me and for him and for all of us.

It isn't even the bad things that happened, Copa.

It's the good things that never happened.

A brother would be an amazing thing to have. A real one, I mean.

Someone alive in my heart.

I feel badly for us both. SWOT, did you have this kind of thing happen to you where your brother was concerned too, if you don't mind sharing that?

***

You father, Copa. Baklava grand's father is dead. He died when she was sixteen. I have posted about that, in other places. Here is what she meant, to him: It was her name tattooed on his arm. All of his life, she was a source of pride to him because she was not raised as he had been raised, and because she would not live as he would be required to live. He had nothing, Copa. No money, no education, no nothing. When she was still a very little girl, he bought her a tea set. Years later, somehow, someone got it to us.

We still have it.

It isn't expensive, but it is priceless to Baklava grand because it is proof that she mattered to her father. Proof that, in all those years when she believed him a hero and he was not, he loved her; he mattered, Copa, because of her, because she existed, and so, he was someone better than he was.

You mattered to your father too, Copa.

Sometimes, it isn't so much about saving as it is, about mattering.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I am happy for this, Cedar. Will you tell us, I hope, a little bit about her visit. I like her so much.

Ha! I will, Copa. She is amazing. She was a blond little girl and teen and then, her hair darkened. When this all started but before we had any clue where it would go, she shaved her head after the school year and had chakra tattoos done. She has huge blue eyes. Her nose has been broken so many times. Her teeth are beautiful; she wore braces as a kid, and takes good care of them to this day. (This is true for both my kids.) She has dead bones in her feet Copa, that they have removed pieces of surgically, from being stomped on. She has been beat, and has memory problems because of that. She is generous and kind and funny ~ so funny, Copa and SWOT! Here is a story about her illness: She had been sought out by the school where she worked before this happened, once they found out through a friendship she has kept up with someone who still works there, that she was again in that state. She agreed to do subbing, wondering how that was all going to work, given her memory problems, now. She took a six week, full-time position for now, and signed a contract for a full time position for next year. Which was a very courageous thing for her to do, I thought. She has a full disability, and would not have to work at all, if she didn't want to. Anyway, one day, she was working in her classroom after the kids were gone. She kept writing assignments for the next day on the board until every board in the room was covered, top to bottom, with things having to do with the next day's lesson. The kids came in the next morning, the day progressed. At some point, she had, or someone had, taken a picture of one of the kids at the board. It did not strike my daughter as a strange thing to have done until she saw the board behind the person in the picture. That is when my daughter thought: "Oh oh." So we were talking about that yesterday, right? And she said that she was so embarrassed and sort of weirded out by it. But the kids actually read it and responded to those of the questions she had posed regarding that day's lesson.

And it got to be quite the discussion forum, because no one had to raise their hand or perform in public or say anything at all unless they wanted to express an opinion about the controversial events my daughter had written onto the board. So, she left it all up, and discussed what the kids had written, and felt happy about it and etc.

It turned out that my daughter was complimented by the principal, and that this method of eliciting interest in disaffected, at risk high school students is going to be employed by other teachers in that school next year.

She was an incredibly empathic teacher, when she taught before.

Apparently, that hasn't changed.

So, that's my daughter.

Two grandsons are coming with; one granddaughter (not Baklava grand ~ she is happily back in Portland) will be coming on the 3rd.

I cannot believe it sometimes, that our daughter was able to bring her family together again.

We never thought this would happen.

:O)

A very hard time for all of us.

And now with my son, I prefer to die and get it over with. Because I cannot choose to say "no more." There is no leaving here. So I must die.

You are his mom, Copa.

Like me, and like SWOT too, we don't get to do that.

Maybe they will never need us. Maybe they will; maybe, we will mess up when they need us.

We don't have to be perfect anymore, Copa.

We are real, now.

3 years it has been since I jumped off the ledge with my mother. That makes me think of Masada, I think it is called. The ancient Jews of Masada, if I remember correctly, were trapped by invaders. And they jumped off a cliff, one by one, all of them. To maintain their beliefs and integrity and to not submit. That is what I remember of the story.

That is correct, Copa.

I know the story of Masada.

But their enemies were outside forces; our enemies, our destroyers, live in our hearts.

Snip.

Out they go.

Our FOO would never choose Masada. They would blame us and name us and turn us in and go blithely (or bitterly) on without us.

True.

That is how we do it, in my family of origin. Find the victim, blame the victim, come away clean. For heaven's sake they even blamed my father after he was dead. (My mother did that. Said things were going to be so different now because he was the reason things had been the way they always had been. And then? She went rabid and poisonous and radioactive.)

So, now we know what we have always known, all along.

She could no more take the fresh start than she had ever taken any fresh start. She (my mom) chooses as she chooses, every time.

Nothing personal to me, after all.

It p*sses me off a little. That I was not even important in her choice of destroying me. Nothing personal.

Ouch.

All those beatings, all that terror, all that brokenness and shame; nothing personal.

F you, mom.

Where is my motorcycle.

:mcsmiley1:

roar


I fear I am not strong enough to return to work. On the other hand, it would be nice to return to work to prove to myself that I still am who I am. Regardless of how they treat me. That I am strong enough to be who already I am. And have been.

No need to agonize over that, Copa. Maybe it is time to try something altogether new.

Love can turn into hate. I think this happened when I stopped seeing my father. I came to hate him. Maybe I always did.

That is such a painful thing, Copa. I am sorry. I think you did not hate him, at the beginning.

He did bad things, Copa.

The whole world is full of people who try to make us the donkey, so as to not be the donkey themselves. And every time, it seems, that somebody succeeds, I feel that I am being accused of the crime I know I committed.

I could be wrong here Copa, but I think not. To me, it seems like the whole world is out to make everyone else the donkey. We tumble into and out of things, dangerous things, mostly surprised. We just don't get the win ~ that is a good way to say it, I think.

But there are predators out there, alright.

The part about having been accused of something we know we deserve the accusation for but not what the crime was, exactly?

That is fraudulence, Copa.

The criminal, newly wakened
wonder, at her crime


Not refute the crime, not deny the accusation. Wonder what I'd done, wonder what exactly that might have been. Full hit on the condemnation, Copa; but I never did know exactly what I'd done.

Really, I still don't.

But he (that first therapist) knew what he meant on some level, I am sure. That he was unable to communicate it to me in an understandable way? Leaves me wondering whether there was no way to explain what he meant because he did not know, himself.

Snip.

But there is a sadness there, still.

Darn those first therapists, anyway.

It is with him, through him, that I was first alive, that I felt the wonder of my own living breath for the first time.

How can I hate him for that? Whatever came after, how can I hate him, for that?

It was worth it; all of it, for the taste of that first breath. What happened next is just the rest of the story. It was an ugly story.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

I will care for her. I know I can. I will draw railings. I will muzzle her, when she accuses herself. I will embrace her and stroke her when she is sad. This poor foolish flower. She is mine. And I will love her until she dies.

I have to go soon because I want to google Beautiful Old Jewish Women, and see if my picture comes up.

:O)

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
my daughter was complimented by the principal, and that this method of eliciting interest in disaffected, at risk high school students is going to be employed by other teachers
How wonderful. Stunning actually. I mean, look at this. I am sure you have.

She puts herself out there. She doesn't have to. At some risk, because who really knows? She like me, and you a little bit, Cedar, is vulnerable. I never know either how I will deal with stress. What I will say or do. That is true.

She sees what she has done. Gone overboard, a little bit. She fears she may have been symptomatic. And feels vulnerable and exposed, when she sees. A little bit ashamed, maybe.

And it turns out that her world sees this thing she feared revealed her vulnerability, as a new, novel brilliant educational intervention? And she is heralded as an innovator for all to follow and model? And it will be implemented as policy and procedure, for everybody to follow?

She is a marvel and a model for all of us. I love her, as well as like her. And I respect her, most of all.
_____

What is the Pale, Copa?
The pale was that part of western Russia where Jews were permitted to live. But at the same time, could not own land. They could leave to work, but that is all. They were not permitted to live under nor were they protected by Russian law and civilization.

The concept the pale is the same as the saying "beyond the pale."

I have copied a description of the origin of that phrase and its origin in the saying.

"Beyond the pale" dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale.

To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself."
_____

So, M came home from work. And we talked.

I told him I do not think we can go to this new city with all the animals, that the very thought of it made me frightened and I thought we could not go.

That everybody will learn to go to the bathroom just 2 times a day or 3, is not realistic, I told him. Nor is it realistic to think that we would not be driven crazy at our age and state, by going to a new place under this kind of tyranny of expectation, that nobody could go to the bathroom except or unless we took them.

Because as it is, they do not even sleep through the night. They want to go outside, and stay. All day and night. Except when they have our undivided attention, for a time, and then they still want to go out. When they want to.

So, M spoke. He said this: *in Spanish. I think Ernesto *brother in law. will watch Dolly (the Boxer), if we give him a few hundred dollars for food and cleaning her poo poo. And we can bring Stella with us (our Siamese Mix) if we are able to fly on the plane.

So Romy (we got him about 14 mos ago) must go to a new home.

M put it this way: You had to decide that your son not live with you, because you put your welfare first. To save your life. Is Romy more important to you than your son?

The idea would be this: Stella comes with us. We go to a hotel or whatever. We find a place to live. Ernesto or another family members sends Dolly on the plane to us, when we have found that place. Romy goes to another family.:furious::furious::furious: These characters appeared of their own volition and refuse to leave.

This plan however scary it is, seems doable. We arrive to this new place with only Stella. We get a hotel or room on Airbnb. We can bring a crate to put Stella in when we leave the room, so that she is secure.

The thing is--this plan seems like it could be fun. We are together, not constantly taking dogs to the bathroom. We can go to restaurants. Walk and explore. Go to the beach. M can go to school for his English. I can play bridge, knit, crochet, dance Tango, dance Forro, dance Samba. Spin, Weave. Everything. Anything I want. I can even try Mixed Martial Arts. I can take an Art Class. We can get a little apartment and be like newlyweds.

It feels like a new beginning. Or even, we can decide we do not like it. But we are not stuck. We have not brought 3 animals cross country with us to be stuck. We can go to a different place, even. We bring Dolly only when we are secure. We will ask Ernesto to take care of Dolly up to 6 months, or less if we are settled before then. 6 months would get us through the Winter. We need to know if we can do this, or want to. Before we involve the animals totally. M is worried Dolly will forget him, I know she won't.

Now, I will try to not worry about Romy, or a recurrence of Dolly's cancer or about my plants, of which there are close to a hundred, I think, in pots. I have my Mother's plants which have flourished here. Especially, I do not want to lose them. I wonder if I can look into shipping them on the plane?

But my first responsibility is to me, and to us, and to M.

I think we made a lot of progress today, together. And we agreed. However hard, we will do it. And to say I am happy about it, is an understatement.

Thank you. :winnersmiley::grouphugg:
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
When D H and I settled in the South for those fist six months?

We did not have so much as a fork, Copa. No bed. No sheets. No dishes or coffeepot or alarm clock.

No towels or pot holders or pans.

We knew no one.

That is the best way to do it ~ to make a new beginning, I mean.

It is such an easy thing, to make our possessions more important than ourselves. In the end, they are gone and only we are left. In the end, one of us (me or D H) will be gone; only the other person will be left.

So, we must try to see the truth of that now, when waking up together is so commonplace a thing.

It will be an incredible adventure for you two.

I love it that you are doing this.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Actually, I think that may not be true, Copa. We are their moms. We know they are better than to do what they are doing. We believe, Copa. That is something worthwhile, something to come home to, to find a guiding light in.
Copa, there is nothing you CAN do. He has to want to change things for them to change. You would support him and help him with extra, extra, extra heart and love if he asked you to help him find a rehab and that he wanted to go to college slowly to better himself. You'd be right there beside him if he were clean and sober and trying.

Right now you can not do anymore than you already are. Because he isn't ready.

You have a heart of gold. You just don't want to help him self-destruct. We get it.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
The pale was that part of western Russia where Jews were permitted to live. But at the same time, could not own land. They could leave to work, but that is all. They were not permitted to live under nor were they protected by Russian law and civilization.
I believe my father's parents fled this same situation, Copa. I know my grandparents were matchmade and traveled here. I'll have to ask my father if they married in Russia or in the U.S. It was still an arranged marriage.

Very interesting that you brought all this up, Copa. Thanks. So much that was never shared with us about our older relatives, at least in our FOO. Very odd.
 
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