Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I feel badly for us both. SWOT, did you have this kind of thing happen to you where your brother was concerned too, if you don't mind sharing that?
I only had my brother when he was very young, Cedar. He moved away right after college, I believe. He'd had his own bit of trauma in the area and I believe he wanted to leave. I believe we even spoke of it once, that this was one reason he left. Our lives were very different and took extremely different paths. I loved him very much. He was real to me, but very far away. I don't know if this is what you were looking for.

I don't know if this was what you wanted, but it's all I've got.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
There was something that therapist too needed to learn, or ~ not to sound too goofy here ~ you would not have been given to him.
I used to ask him, "Have you learned from me?" And he would say, yes. But I do not think he learned what I hoped he would. I stayed with him so long for him, not for myself. Because I knew he was broken. Even as his world saw him as a great success, a great man, I knew him to be broken.

I know this sounds nuts. But it has some truth.

I knew always that it was him. My job since small was to care for those who needed it, up to giving my life. Which is what unfortunately I did, for him.

I think he felt I had had too many losses before, and could not sustain another. By telling me to leave to find other treatment, that he could not help me, would hurt me, too much. I believe he thought. I believe now he was protecting himself. And I do not know why.

I would have survived. But I needed a family and he was all I had for years. In time I will make peace with it. And perhaps understand, better.
Cedar's D H was as he was.
Cedar, what did they reject about your husband? His strength? The fact that he is incorruptible? His loyalty to you? His insistence on protecting you? Was it prejudice?

And what is it that makes your sister hate the Greek Orthodox Priest? Does your mother have money that your sister fears will go to him? Does she fear losing control? Or is it jealousy and insecurity, only?

I mean, give me a break. What could be worth it really?
If it had worked ~ if we all were together now in some good way, I think we would never have thought again about whether what we had done for the sakes of our families,
That is true.
Only children well loved and secure feel safe enough to abuse their parents, Copa.
My son called a bit ago. He is freaked out about the Greek Default which I had not heard about, convinced that by August the end of the world as we know it will come.

I stayed calm. I told him, a lot of people are concerned about a lot of things. And explained the theory of long-wave cycles in economic theory. But they do not freak out about it, and literally stop living their lives. This is what I want for you. That you not freak out about it.

Lives need to be led, and selves protected, and lessons learned, despite the fact that the worst thing may come. Or I said something along these lines.

And he said, I want to be able to see you guys before I go. Of course, I replied. I really want to see you.

And he said, I was hurt because you wouldn't anymore let me stay at the house.

I replied, it is hard to explain. I have learned to respect that you will do the right thing for yourself, and to trust you that you will do it.

I worry about your health, especially. But I have been wrong not to trust that you will take care of yourself.

At the same time I have learned that I must take care of myself too. No matter if it is hard.

And I said, I was hurt that you would not tell me where you lived or for a while, not give me your phone number. Imagine what that was like for me. When you did not call. And I did not know how and where you were.

When? He asked. The last 6 weeks in particular. Were hard. I did not know where you were or how to find you.

It was not vengeance, he said. But I faced that we were not able to have a relationship. Well, maybe a little bit was revenge.

You need to understand that when things get bad in August or September that we might not ever be able to see each other again. That transportation will not exist. To get to one another.

There will never be a place that I will not get to you and find you. If I have to walk, I will get there. So don't worry about that.

And I am thinking about the Runaway Bunny. When I read that book to my son, how much I had wished my mother had loved me that much.

And how grateful I am now that I was able to be that mother for my son. And still can be and am.
We know they are better than to do what they are doing. We believe, Copa. That is something worthwhile, something to come home to
That is true. I told my son that. I need you to take care of yourself. To learn from what works and what does not. Not just to be afraid. To learn.
I was not honoring their choices. I was judging their choices.
I know.
You mattered to your father too, Copa.
My father bought me a tea set. Long gone. And one for my Mother, too. Part of it is with me, still. I mattered to my father for some time, but at the end he hated and denounced me.
You have a heart of gold. You just don't want to help him self-destruct. We get it.
Thank you, SWOT.
I know my grandparents were matchmade and traveled here.
SWOT, ask your Dad from where his parents came? Maybe we are landsmen, I think they call it. From the same place.

Thank you Ladies. For being who you are. And here for me.

COPA
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
SWOT, ask your Dad from where his parents came? Maybe we are landsmen, I think they call it. From the same place.
I'll ask him. I'm sorry he doesn't share his history with me. I know his father at least was running from the Nazis.

I wonder why he never shared and why I never thought to ask. I will ask now.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Cedar, what did they reject about your husband? His strength? The fact that he is incorruptible? His loyalty to you? His insistence on protecting you? Was it prejudice?

And what is it that makes your sister hate the Greek Orthodox Priest? Does your mother have money that your sister fears will go to him? Does she fear losing control? Or is it jealousy and insecurity, only?

I mean, give me a break. What could be worth it really?

Ha! So, I wrote this reasoned response and etc. What it comes down to though is that I am so terminally p*issed off about all of it.

For Heaven's sake/ WTF.

I am not sure whether I am more upset over the things they've done and done and done, or at myself for putting up with it and making excuses for it and dancing all around any and all of it ever. It would have been a cleaner thing for me never to have seen them again once I could freaking walk.

And Die Hard, like Bruce Willis.

I must be feeling bad now out of habit; poor me with no family. Who needs that kind of family? Those little weasels are out to get me.

Yay me for finally standing up for once when I cut the freaking ties that bind last year.

Snip.

My mother is a kind of a person who beats little kids. My sister is a kind of person who prays a ring of thorns around her own sister and her children to "bring her to the Lord".

What a frighteningly sick little turd.

***

So, here is the response that got me to this place where I finally can see a little more clearly.

Bunch of jerks.

Ahem.

roar

***

Probably all those things, Copa.

In answering your questions, I ran headlong into how intensely toxic interacting with my Family of Origin is. I mean, they are cute, and they do the craziest things ~ but there is always that sense of what I have that they don't, or what they know of that is better than what I have provided. I don't know how to describe it. It has to do with my sister parading her kids around waving flags and singing patriotic songs to the point that the gathering is awkward and out of balance. Or, putting her grand on display and never, ever stopping. Instead of a sense of welcome or happiness or gratitude or whatever it is that I think I am looking at when I see other families interact.

When I see D H family interact.

My FOO behaviors escalated with my sister's last marriage, and with
D H increasing financial success. Competition has been intense to outdo whatever it is we have. I think that is true. I know that sounds jerky. It seems to be true to me. Well, good. Better to be in my position than my sister's, re: FOO dysfunctional roles up for grabs.

If we were to research this question, we would probably find that these patterns are typical. If one cannot look down on the sibling, then one can hate them. If my role had not been pseudo-mom, I would probably have taken my sister's role and would roundly hate her. (Except that really, I absolutely do not believe that about myself. Not in a million years. I would not have allowed it; I would have worked at it and at myself until it was gone. Which is probably what I did do when I should have just hated all their guts too and gotten on with things.) I don't see us coming through this. In truth, I didn't create family dinners or etc for their sakes. We were doing whatever we were doing anyway, and they were simply welcome. It even makes sense to me that, hurt by the mother's continuing rejection, they would attend family functions I hosted (instead of the welcome they should have had at their real mother's home) already feeling so rejected that nothing good could have come of it even if my sister had told her obnoxious little girls to sit down for once.

(Added on reread: Vomit/retch/blow my nose at them.)

But she didn't.

She told them to keep going, and does the same with her grand.

Copa, I was thinking of your sister's behavior in the hospital when your mother was sick. That same overwhelming sense of "I am the important one, here." This is what we saw in my sister's behavior when my father was hospitalized.

Same patterns.

Most likely, I will never know the why of it.

But it is clear to me now that however the scenario was being played out, hatred ran through it and fueled it and made it an ugliness. I don't mean dislike, and I don't mean jealousy or anything remotely normal; I mean virulent, barely concealable hatred.

(And on reread: Oh, what.ever.)

Now that my sister is married, now that my father is gone, and now, when my sister has a beautiful home and can and does offer my mother something she wants (a winter home), hers (and my mother's) antipathy toward me ~ blatantly and vocally based on intense dislike and blame and disparagement of D H to anyone who will listen ~ has grown into some burgeoning, ungainly thing with very little connection to anything real.

And isn't that something and how did that happen.

They seem like shriveled, blackened things to me, now. Maybe I just did not want to face how ugly all of it is. I still have a little denial going on, a little shame at naming them (and myself) this way.

But it is what it is; and it is better to know.

I should note for the record that D H threw a hissy the last time my mother stayed with us in the winter. He spent most of the time she was there sulking and surly and said she made him want to throw up.

So, once my mother was gone, I made D H leave.

He was gone two weeks.

***

My sister's inexcusable behavior toward my daughter, her unbelievable behavior toward me; my mother and my sister united against the rest of the family including the innocent grands, some newly born ~ though this may have changed in the time I have been persona non grata; my sister and my mom, spiders at the center of the reality each reinforces, each spinning and spinning away for some win I don't understand. But the difference today is that I am no longer discounting that there is a win here somewhere for my FOO. Their behaviors are intentional, and their intentions are just as they seem. I am not so surprised about these true things, anymore. I am no longer conflicted about how things should be handled if they come here, or if they call.

I wish it had been different.

I can stop wondering why things keep going so wrong. Things were wrong from the beginning. That is what is wrong, now.

Snip.

(On reread: See how sad and well thought and reasoned I sound? That's all gone. Swear words, roared and profuse and brilliant blue.

I wave my panties at your auntie.

I blow my nose in your general direction.

roar

:O)

***

From what I have been able to piece together through working here, my sister's antipathy toward the man who wanted/wants to marry my mother has to do with the the blighted attempts to heal we all seem to be trying for. I have described before my sister's elation at having my mother in her home. My sister is furious that a man, an outsider, could offer my mother an alternative.

I keep thinking here of my mother's comment that she enjoyed watching the jealousy between my sister and myself over our mother. It could be that the man now plays that role, keeping my mother and my sister united.

***

I may have been jealous. I think jealous comes when we are judged against, found wanting and etc. So, if I were going to be jealous, now is when I would be jealous. Jealous is very much a part of what I feel but mostly it isn't. Jealous would be a bad thing to accuse myself of, so, assuming the worst to be true, I accuse myself. What I really feel is deep anger; resentment. I am hurt. I feel I have lost whatever chance there was, every memory of times when I pretended what I had was enough, even.

All gone.

I have an aunt, too ~ a sister of my mother's ~ whose daughter refuses to have anything to do with her.

Again Copa to your sister's behavior when your mother was so sick: My sister behaving as though my mother were not being well cared for when she was in this area in the summer, in her own home. She would sigh heavily and say things like "It isn't all about you, Cedar." And that my brother was useless where my mother was concerned (though he was mowing her lawn and remodeling her house), and that I needed to do more, be there more, be more respsonsive to my mother's loneliness and her needs.

At the time, it seemed to me that my sister was exaggerating her own importance in the same way she had done when my father was hospitalized. It had that same feel to it.

I did not change my behavior toward my mother based on my sister's recommendations ~ but it was an unusual enough way for her to behave that I still remember it.

And that is who she is now too, of course. It p*sses me off that I have so little individual importance even in my own abuse.

For Heaven's sake.

WTF

roar

Cedar

WE REALLY ARE DOING THIS, YOU TWO.

Thanks, guys.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
From what I have been able to piece together through working here, my sister's antipathy toward the man who wanted/wants to marry my mother has to do with the the blighted attempts to heal we all seem to be trying for. I have described before my sister's elation at having my mother in her home. My sister is furious that a man, an outsider, could offer my mother an alternative.
This is sick, Cedar, and goes back to childhood mommy issues. "I want mommy to love me best!" It reaks of the voices that talk to her in HER head.
Ugh. I feel like puking myself at the thought of my own mother living with me...nothing to do with yours...I just don't understand why a grown kid, even your sister, would want a stinky parent to live with her.

I guess it's that ole childhood win.

"Ha, ha! Mommy loves me best."

(shudder)
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
WE REALLY ARE DOING THIS, YOU TWO.
You're doing GREAT!!!!!!!!

You should reach over and pat yourself on the back. Or have your hubby pat you on your fanny...hehe. And then have some fun.

Read your first post and then read your posts now. They are full of growth.

We are strong,
we are invincible (sort of),
we are wooooooooooooooooooooomen!!!! (not mommy's little girls anymore)
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I wanted to write about a difference I see between your dysfunctional FOO, Cedar, and my dysfunctional FOO. And Copa, I think yours was more like mine, but you'll have to let us know.

Cedar, in spite of the hate, the backbiting, the nastiness, and the facade, your FOO was a bit enmeshed, it seems. You talked things over (translation gossipped meanly regarding mother and Sis) and were together a lot for family holidays. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That being said, if it is or was so, perhaps that is why you have more of a problem taking your identity back from them and making it your own, without them. Maybe that's why you long so much for a nice FOO. I mean, we all do, but I think you long for it the most of the three of us. And I think it is harder for you to look at your family and see that it's toxic because you really wanted them to be nice.

"If I'm just good enough, mommy will love me and sister will approve of me."

That's because of your kind heart.

I was meaner, I think.

I did try to be good, as far as not having sex, not using drugs, and not getting drunk in my teens. I wanted desperately to be good because I felt I was bad, (due to being told I was bad, selfish, lazy, etc. etc. etc.). But, if I'm honest, I mostly was my idea at the time of "good" for me. I wanted to respect myself. I wanted to be different from my peers who I saw as out of control and self-destructive. So I both did it because I knew mommy thought good girls didn't drug, have sex or drink, but I did it more because I wanted to be good and I adapted her belief system.

I really had no hope that my family would ever be normal. I wasn't sure what normal was, but I know it wasn't us.

I remember one night I was visiting my high school best friend who really had cool loving parents. Of course, my mother didn't agree. She thought they were "stuck up" and didn't watch their daughter closely enough. As if SHE watched what *I* did at all unless I cut my hair or dated a gentile. But that's neither hear nor there.

Many of my friends were younger than me and this one was 1 1/2 years my junior. I was seventeen and she was fifteen and she was sitting on her fathers lap, hugging him. Later, she told me she's a daddy's girl.

In my twisted mind, I found this very shocking. It never crossed my mind that any daughter could feel that attached to her father. My father was never home. I never sat on his lap...ever. It blew my mind in a way that tells me my ideas of parents and children was very skewed. I never said anything to her, but I thought they were both weird at the time.

I wish I could have been a daddy's girl when I was fifteen. He sat and talked to her and was always there for her, and she was close to her mom too. That also puzzled me. Her parents would sit with us in their huge family room and talk to us. I wondered why my friend even wanted her parents around when she was with her friends. I could tell they were nice people, but it was a concept I could not grasp. Parents and kids liking to hang together and talk. It was beyond what I was able to understand.

From the time I hit high school until I married and got out, all I wanted to do was be out of my parents house and somewhere out there...haha. A play on my nickname. I did not want to be home. I did not want to hear the fights. I did not want my mother to yell at me. I did not want my father to say things to my friends that embarrassed me that he thought were funny. I wanted to be gone as much as I could.

I had to get married and know HIS family to see w hat a nice family does and how they act. No, they aren't perfect. Yes, there are misunderstandings, although they aren't the Talk of the Town. But when times are tough they are there with love. They enjoy being together on holidays. They really love one another.

And this is what we did not have.

Only my dysfunctional FOO was not particularly enmeshed. Except that my mother did talk for hours on the phone to HER mother, my grandmother. And told her everything. EVERYTHING.

"There are no secrets in a family."

Like the day I got my period. How embarassed I felt. I didn't want to have it. Then I heard my mother, talking in a rare phone call to my father at his store and saying, "Hahaha! Our little girl just got her period! Can you bring home some Kotex?" (He owned a pharmacy).

Yep, I'm sure that made my father's day.

So, backing up, mother and grandma were enmeshed and remained so until my grandmother's death. However, they had a rather rocky relationship though because my grandmother, who I talked to every day, pretty much told me everything she said to her and told her everything I said to my mother. I remember the one time in her life my grandmother bought me a new clothes washer. Sure enough, Mother found out.

"YOU SELFISH GIRL! YOU DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FROM YOUR GRANDMOTHER! TAKE, TAKE, TAKE! That's all your do is take! How awful of you."

We were never allowed to accept anything offered to us, I guess, as this was the only time my grandmother offered to buy me something I desperately needed and I let her. So I was selfish. Why?

"You told her it was broke! YOU KNEW SHE'D BUY YOU ANOTHER ONE!"

Oh, really? I told her almost everything. We were like friends. She had never bought me anything before that. I was as shocked as anyone when she offered, but I really couldn't say no. Ok, I didn't want to go to the laundromat, and first husband was very cheap and that was his solution, so I *didn't* say no. I guess I could have and then been more honorable. But I accepted it.

Shame, shame!!!

The grandmother/me/mother emeshment was kind of odd. I was not enmeshed with my mother at all. I barely spoke to her as she was very unpleasant. But my grandmother brought us together by sharing everything we didn't want shared with one another.

"Your mother is so mean when she takes me shopping." (Grandmother)

So I'd get angry because I loved my grandmother. "Let ME take you. I won't get angry." And I didn't.

Battle over grandma?

Mother issues with my own mother?

Daughter vs. mother?

Her disowning me because I let grandmother buy me a washing machine she could well afford (and was very proud of that fact) and did not give her $5000 to only one of my children?

I think so.

So we were tied together in a strange way, but mother and I were not enmeshed. I truly enjoyed talkling to my grandmother. She was usually so very kind to me and we laughed like kids. We talked about our fvorite soap operas and everything else. But the one catch was, she'd tell my mother and I was always vulnerble to a nasty call from my mother, back when she still did call me, telling me what I did "baaaaaaaaaaaaad" this time.

I was not enmeshed with brother or sister.

We were not really enmeshed.

A few days ago, the family issue came up when I was talking to my hubby. He laughed and said, "Yeah, maybe you wish you had a nicer sister, but you can't MISS having a sister because you never had one. You and her would talk for six months then be off contact for years." He then chuckled as he talked about the cops, the e-mails, and how upset she got me. "You don't have a sister to miss, SWOT."

He's right. In my mind I probably think I was talking more often to her than I actually was. He's probably right that 2/3rds of our twenty years together were spent with me and Sissy not speaking.

My made family is not enmeshed either. That is so unhealthy.

Anyway, just my .02 again. I hope you are having a nice evening. And I'm waving to you too, Copa :) Hope you are well!
 
Last edited:

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
So I both did it because I knew mommy thought good girls didn't drug, have sex or drink, but I did it more because I wanted to be good and I adapted her belief system.
This is so interesting to me SWOT. When I left home I had no idea how to act. My Mother was completely indifferent to my behavior that did not affect her. What affected her, she controlled 100 percent. She was a savage taskmaster.

When I left home I was no longer her slave, in the house. And there was a long time that I would not do much in the house, even though I loved and valued a clean and beautiful home.

As far as sex, drinking, drugs, nobody had cared one bit what I did. But I was timid and afraid and did nothing untoward at all.

Once I left home, I had no idea how to value myself, much less insist that others do the same. Especially men. It took years and years to be able to hold myself as having any value worth saying no to anybody about anything. Luckily I had an intrinsic sense of modesty and decorum and did not crave to do anything that bad. But I had a very hard time controlling what others did bad to me because nobody ever cared either to protect me or to teach me to protect myself. I did not know enough to protect myself from anybody or anything. I had no voice at all to protect myself. No sense of my worth to others. Just to myself.
I really had no hope that my family would ever be normal.
I agree with you, SWOT. I knew that there was nothing in my family for me. I knew it very, very early. But still until my mid twenties I craved my Mother and was very dependent upon being with her.

She thought they were "stuck up" and didn't watch their daughter closely enough.
My Mother was indifferent where I went or with who. As much as I was out of the house after my chores, the better for her. With who, mattered little or at all.
So, once my mother was gone, I made D H leave.
Why did you make your husband leave, Cedar? Did you know then? Do you know now?
Addressing the issues is the one thing not allowed between she and I.
My sister is that way, too. The only thing that can be said is that I am 100 percent bad and wrong. And everything I have ever done in my life is bad too.
If one cannot look down on the sibling, then one can hate them.
I think this is so. As long as you have less or are in dire straits you can be included. If your relative position improves you become someone to be destroyed.

I think my sister thinks I do not understand my place. That I should be entering through the servants' door, and really have lost sight of my true position and value. Which to her is very small. Or nothing at all.

My mother and I used to joke that my sister wanted to think of herself as a matriarch, a very powerful woman not just in the world but in her family. I had thought until now that her role as matriarch she assumed within her own family. I now see that in her mind she had assumed that role in her FOO as well.

My mother used to say that my sister was envious of me, that in her secret heart she felt that I had been advantaged, had lived a life more content and complete, and that she was even jealous. My mother said that she thought my sister felt insecure compared to me. With my mother I always discounted that this could be so. (Frequently my mother would ask me to be kinder, more accepting, more embracing of my sister. To forgive her. Which I would never do.)

Sometimes, I thought to myself, this: How could my sister envy me, when I have had or asked for so little. Have deferred to her, given over her the place, the space of having it all?

But this is what I really thought about what my sister might feel about me: That I had tried to live a life of integrity, responsibility and intention. And that my sister had not. I did not accept that she might be envious because these things were not important to her. To her the important things were power over, money, things, status and control. I dismissed that she felt that anything I had was was worth having.

I think my Mother felt that my sister's envy was of attributes I had, whether it was looks or intelligence or a certain intrinsic confidence in and trust of myself, I guess what you would call authenticity. No matter how beaten down I did not lose that.

Being in touch with who I am I was able to do brave things that I wanted to do, that other people could do, but usually did not, because they would not make the sacrifice or take the risk. So I ended up doing audacious things. I believed that she did in fact envy this. Looking at this now, this way, I can see why her daughter ended up going to the exact city and college in Brazil, where I had gone, and learned Portuguese, the same language.

But back to the question of hatred. From whence did it come?

I think it came from betrayal of self. My sister betrayed not just others she betrayed herself.

The question is this: Does she know it, does she know she betrayed herself? I do not know.

M has said, your sister, when she gets old and is dying, will be in monstrous agony. She will try to do horrible things. I cannot remember why he said it, but I think it was about the way she has treated me and my mother, and others as well.
Copa, I was thinking of your sister's behavior in the hospital when your mother was sick. That same overwhelming sense of "I am the important one, here."
For my sister she was the only one there. Think about what she did in the hospital trying mightily to dehumanize M.

To my sister I had no legitimacy or entitlement in any way. And I do not know why.

M and I were talking about my sister a little while ago. His mother wants all of the children to accept the decision by their father to give the house to the evil daughter who plotted and pressured him to get it. Without fighting and without rancor.

I thought about this and was incredulous. I said, you mean she wants you to accept that this evil sister did this evil thing and will keep doing evil things? Including putting your mother at risk, and her disabled son?

Yes, he replied. She believes that family loyalty is more important than everything, and that if we are unified we will be better able to work out whatever problem may come in the future. And I will respect her wish.

I said, you mean, kiss the evil sister and forgive her and do nothing? He said, yes.

And, just accept everything? All the wrong things she does? And will do? Yes.

And I thought about it for a minute. And I said, in a way, that is what I did with my mother and sister. Very early I left the field to my sister. She could have of my mother what she wanted and needed.

I believed that nothing was worth participating in their mess. Nothing that I could gain or get, whether emotional or financial or family or anything was worth it.

Underlying that belief was the sense that my sister and my mother would suffer from their own hand; that no denunciation or vengeful act by me or attempt to equalize things, would ever come close, to that which they would bring down upon themselves.

My sister herself would suffer by what she would do and how she would act and how she would be. That was the belief I had and still do.

So I just left. For years and years and years. Until my Mom got sick.

My sister I think believed that I had capitulated out of weakness. Because I would not be her adversary. To her I folded. To me, I yielded, in the martial arts sense. And if I thought about it all I believed that her own misdeeds and negative attitudes would double back on her. That I needed only to walk away.

And she believed me to be not worthy of a thought. And with this sense of arrogance and underestimation of a silent adversary, she ended up the vulnerable one. And hence her rage. Because I was supposed to know my place. And enter through the servants door.

After my Mother died my sister wrote to me her sense that my mother had chosen me at the end. That I had forced her to.

Why? I had said nothing. Except in front of her girls I said, maybe your mother is saying something so important to the doctor, that I need to go and listen.

All my mother said was this: Do not take over my care. Do not go behind my back. Copa and I have a plan in place and I do not want you to go behind my back to change it unilaterally.

My sister thought she was the only one present that deserved a voice, not just the important voice. The only one. To her I did not have any legitimacy at all, even to say in front of her children and my mother, I want to be present when L asks important questions, was beyond my right to do.

But she did not voice this while my mother still lived, she just said no contact. Why she waited I am not sure.
already feeling so rejected that nothing good could have come of it even if my sister had told her obnoxious little girls to sit down for once.
I know. When I am less tired I will tell you about my sister and her two girls.
D H increasing financial success. Competition has been intense to outdo whatever it is we have.
I wonder Cedar if this is the main thing. All of it. Everything. That it is all about money and success and the relative position it confers. In your sister's way of thinking about things.
 
Last edited:

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
This is so interesting to me SWOT. When I left home I had no idea how to act. My Mother was completely indifferent to my behavior that did not affect her. What affected her, she controlled 100 percent. She was a savage taskmaster.
Copa, my mom only cared about what she cared about, like my long hair and dating Jewish boys. And it was for her, of course. She didn't like short hair and thought it was a betrayal to date anyone but Jewish boys. She was a sloppy housekeeper who did not work or drive, but never cleaned and didn't cook well and never taught me how to do either. These things didn't matter to her.
There was also a personality difference between you and me. You could NOT control me unless I felt guilty and gave in, which happened sometimes. But *I* had to think it made sense. The Jewish boy thing just didn't resonate with me as something that made sense, especially the way she described it. So I thought it was unjust and I eventually did not listen to that. I did keep my hair long, but I also liked long hair. She did care about things like drinking, sex and drugs, because she didn't want me to be a tramp (her word was "loose girl") and she made it clear she would never take care of a baby if I had one, although I was a virgin. Still, I didn't want to be a tramp or a bad girl, so I chose not to do these things for ME. Still, she accused me of them anyway.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I agree with you, SWOT. I knew that there was nothing in my family for me. I knew it very, very early. But still until my mid twenties I craved my Mother and was very dependent upon being with her.
I wanted my mother to love me, but did not crave being with her as she was not nice to me most of the time. I also did not know anything about life when I left home.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
My Mother was indifferent where I went or with who. As much as I was out of the house after my chores, the better for her. With who, mattered little or at all.
My mother judged everybody and nobody was any good. She didn't care who I was with, unless it was a gentile boy, but she had have an opinion about everyone I knew. I can't think of many people she gave credit to. It wasn't just me she didn't like. It was me she had control over. These people she judged couldn't have cared less about her.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I wish I could say things are better but they are not.

My son called yesterday. He is preparing to leave here, and never come back. He expects a doomsday event in August or September at the latest. He wants to come here to the house to see us to say goodbye. I suggested that we go out to eat. He replied that would be fine but I want to see everybody, including the pets, Stella, Dolly and Romy.

Since then I cannot shake my sadness. M says it is not sadness, it is fear, that I am afraid of my son coming to the house, afraid of him.

I feel like I cannot bear the sadness that he is not getting better, and the idea that he may never. I know I am not the only one, but I find myself jealous that Lil again has hope that her son will get better and I have none.

I ask myself, if we had not thrown my son out 4 years ago and found another way, getting him an apartment or whatever...would it be different now? Is there something, anything I can do to repair this which is killing me?

I know, I know, I have to work on me, on having a better life, but I seem to be unable thus far to do it.

The plan to leave town is still on, and we will do it. M talked to his sister about Dolly and I talked to her about Romy. M says it is almost certain she will take care of Dolly the Boxer but not Romy, the Yorkie because she is afraid he will escape and get run over. She lives on a street where the cars go fast, and Romy is an escape artist. I feel very, very sad about Romy. I love Romy. But can I sacrifice my life for him? I hope not.

I keep wanting somebody, somewhere to understand. I cannot live if my son does not get better. There is something broken in me, that cannot be fixed...if he does not get fixed. And there is nobody I can appeal to, no power that will hear me. I am so sad.

But I am sad, too, if it is the end of my life. And if I never get out of bed, it is an end.

M said something this morning, which struck me. His mother will go home in a week. His Dad is hospitalized, almost died because of diabetes. The doctor says he needs a full time caretaker from now on.

M's Mother dreads going home. She feels she is reentering prison. But she will go, to take care of her disabled son.

I said to M: will it not be better with someone in the house? I mean, for your mother. Will his power over her be diminished?

He said, it might. When your mother worsened and was bed-ridden her authority over you much lessened.

While my mother was here and still mobile she tyrannized me in my house. 24 hours a day.

This is good for me to remember. When I feel guilty for the bad, bad thing I did, which I cannot even write.

I am wondering right now. How was I ever able to do the work I did in prisons, and I did it very well?

It seems I am unable to set limits or make distance or put my interests above anybody I love...if they are vulnerable. Without paying a price which is unbearable.

How in the world did I do what I did in prisons? I was caring, I was strong, deliberate. I was true to myself.

Maybe I need to try to go back to work.

My son will call so that he can come over. And I am dreading it. But I cannot say no. M will be working until 8 or 9 pm. Perhaps I will ask my son to wait until tomorrow, so that I will have M with me.

I do not know what in life I did to deserve this pain. I know it may have been determined from the start. I still cannot accept it. But I know I must.

I know everybody here loves their children like I love my son. And I really, really don't know how to accept what is happening to us.

Sorry.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I know everybody here loves their children like I love my son. And I really, really don't know how to accept what is happening to us.

Copa, kids leave and move to other states. In that way, you son is not unique. I know lots of people whose kids don't live nearby. Yes, your son may be going for a reason you find silly, but is it really any different that the pain any mother feels when a child moves far away? I'm not sure. This is kind of why I made sure I had a lot going on in my own life...so that my happiness would not depend upon constant contact with my adult children and grands. My two grands are pretty far away.

You are not your son. He can't ruin you and he can't save you by living the life you want him to live. It's more complicated than that. Kids move, get married sometimes to people we don't like who don't like us and there can be estrangement due to that too, grandkids may not see us as much as we like, everything isn't rosy just because an adult child has a house, a job and a car. There are still challenges and our grown kids, if healthy, do grow away from us, still loving us, but having their own life.

My youngest is already talking about where she may want to get criminal justice work. It used to be right around here. Now she isn't sure...maybe a big city. I have to live with her career choice and it's danger. She is not afraid, but excited and sure she can handle it. She works at a nursing home on her summer break and told me, "No real difference between a dementia patient smearing poop on you and an inmate doing it." Naive maybe, but she can do it. I know she can do it, if she decides to work in corrections.

I want to keep my baby right by my side forever, but I would never tell her that. She has to go where her heart leads her.

She is talking too about coming home every weekend to work so she can visit Europe (she has friends to stay with) and maybe seeing if she can do any of her college work abroad. She is very good friends with a few exchange students who came to her school and they are visiting now so this is on her mind. I think it's great!!! My daughter Princess got to go to Austria through school. But that was LEAVING. They always leave, Copa. We give them "roots to grow and wings to fly."

Your son may or may not go to Montana for a long time and he may hate it and come back right away. You can't tell the future. Either way, he is not the key to your life. The key to your life is with you. You make your life any way you want it to be. Anywhere you want it to be. With whomever you want it to be with (peer-wise).

I don't know how much you can control your life and put it in your own hands. You didn't nothing bad to deserve anything. Most people suffer somewhat. It socks to have a crummy FOO, but it's over now and we do have to move past it and think about who WE are and what WE need.

I don't want you to share anything you feel uncomfortable doing, but I doubt if what you think was so horrid that you did to your mother (who was, for the most part, horrid to you all your life) is as bad as you think it is. People are human. We react. We make mistakes. We are ashamed of our mistakes. I wonder if your mother was ever ashamed of how she disregarded you.

We have to see them straight.

We can't cheat.

We can't make them "more than they were just because they are gone. That often happens. Suddenly we idolize the bad guy. I'm glad you got to love her in the end, but she didn't allow it until she had no real choice.

Your son was born with challenges that you did not want to see (nor did I want to see this in my older adoptee) and he is paying the price for his birthmother's choices. You ddin't do anything to him. SHE did. That "she" that you never knew, but whom disregarded him by drinking and doing drugs while she had a developing baby in her body. SHE DID IT, not you. This DOES affect how adults can make choices, but you can't change his brain wiring. HE has to want to change it.

You are a good person. I wish you valued yourself as much as I do and Cedar does. You are deserving a great rest-of-your-life. Pretend "This Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." In fact, it is and I love that saying. Make every day a good day. Don't look past or to the future or at your son to fulfill you. What can YOU do to make YOUR day happy? What makes you halppy? If nothing does, consider getting help...that is true clinical depression and it doesn't just go away. You don't need to go to therapy if you don't want to, although I do think a counselor would help, but that is your life, up to you. Do see your GP at least and let him know that you are sad and can not function.

You are enough. You are BETTER than enough. You are kind and caring and a very good person. Not much trumps that.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Thank you SWOT. I had been just about to edit this post and to put in that I remembered that I am my own little flower. And I didn't forget. And I will take care of me. And I remembered that on my own. Even before you wrote back. Thank you SWOT.
You are not your son. He can't ruin you and he can't save you by living the life you want him to live.
What I am talking about here is this unfathomable sadness that he is not okay and the longer this goes on the more it seems he will never get better. And I seem unable to bear it, even if it is not my fault, it seems to me, it is my responsibility to fix it.

And the weird thing is this: There were always problems when he was growing up, but they were largely outside of the home, in school or daycare. They were not between us. I was able to bear everything that happened until lately. I do not know what changed. It must have to do with being depressed, so affected by my mother's death
You don't need to go to therapy if you don't want to,
I have been talking on the phone with a Psychiatrist for almost a year, I think. I went a few times, but he is a few hours away and it was hard to get there. I trust very few if any therapists. I was on Zoloft prescribed by my Internist, but it had no effect. This psychiatrist will not prescribe medication unless I go see him at certain intervals. I will talk to him about medication and/or go to someone here where I live for it. I will do that next week.

And I looked up Al Anon meetings and there are a couple within a mile away. I will go on Thursday.

Pretend "This Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." In fact, it is and I love that saying. Make every day a good day.
Today is the first day of the rest of my life. And I am so grateful for what I have. That I have M. He is such a good and flawed man. He always interests me. I care deeply for him.

Today he is working late. So I am on my own. My son wants to come today to the house.

That makes it not a good day. If I am honest, that is what I feel. I do not feel up to dealing with him alone, and there are no days for the next week or so where M will be home, to make it easier.

I do not know how to handle that I do not want to see my son.

What can YOU do to make YOUR day happy? What makes you happy?
Thank you, SWOT. I will begin to approach every day with this task. To fill each day with things that make me happy.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
What I am talking about here is this unfathomable sadness that he is not okay and the longer this goes on the more it seems he will never get better. And I seem unable to bear it, even if it is not my fault, it seems to me, it is my responsibility to fix it
How? How can you fix him?
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
That makes it not a good day. If I am honest, that is what I feel. I do not feel up to dealing with him alone, and there are no days for the next week or so where M will be home, to make it easier.

I do not know how to handle that I do not want to see my son.
I wouldn't want to either if it was to say good-bye. But I don't think he is leaving forever, if he leaves at all. Maybe that will make it more bearable. He is still connected to you or he would not want to say good-bye. He will keep in touch.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
How? How can you fix him?
That's where I am stuck, SWOT. I do not know how.
He is still connected to you or he would not want to say good-bye. He will keep in touch.
He is only going 3 hours away. Not to another State. To another City. He hopes to get into a good homeless shelter, there, in a City where he I both were born, and lived, that has excellent services for the homeless and mentally ill.

Actually, I think it is the best place for him, if he gets housing. The problem is paid for housing is impossible for him, because apartments start at like 2000 dollars a month. Rooms cost as much as his SSI. So the only way he can live there is at a homeless shelter or if he enters residential treatment again and gets subsidized housing, eventually.

Perhaps, now that he has faced that he hates it where we live he will take more seriously the need to dig in and avail himself of services in this City. Because it seems as if other options for him are dwindling.

What do parents do, SWOT, like me. Who know they cannot fix their children but feel they cannot accept either that they live as they do, with sad and difficult lives? Is there ever a resolution?

Thank you, SWOT.
 
Top