I don't know what I am doing...is it right?

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by bex411, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. bex411

    bex411 New Member

    My son is 1, 18 at the end of the year. he dropped out of high school due to laziness and bullying issues over his orientation. He has depression and has done some superficial cutting (only after I had him hospitalized for a week).
    When he came home from the hospital there were some clear rules and expectations set. He semi-followed the ones about the chores (although if you asked him he was doing everything), but wasn't taking me seriously about bedtime, and wake up time.
    He has no job, and isn't going to school. There was an argument one night wherein I gave him the choice to turn over his monitor until he had awakened on time for a week (this let him set up the music he likes to sleep to before giving me the monitor) or he could give me the entire computer until he had awakened on time three days in a row. He told me:"I see no point in waking up at 10:00 when there's nothing for me to do." He was supposed to be looking for work, and doing something productive everyday, all he was doing was walking to the library and hanging out with friends.
    the argument spilled over with my girlfriend who told him he was selfish and self-centered and only thought of himself.
    I spent 12 years in a relationship with a "man" who worked a grand total of maybe six months in that time, and the rest of the time slept all day and played video games all night. this is the ****thank you example I gave my son to emulate. Realizing this I have tried to be patient and understanding, but my son needs to learn to stand on his own.
    I CAN'T let him live like that, he is amazing when he's "good" and deserves a chance to be happy.
    After the fight, he told me he no longer wanted to live here. I told him ok, and took him to a homeless teens shelter. He'd been there about a week when he texted me demanding to be picked up. he wouldn't tell me why, but I spoke to staff and they told me the other boys had played a prank on him and put ketchup in his bed.
    He's never socialized well, and my heart was breaking for him, but as he refused to tell me the problem I didn't address it with him, just told him that whatever is going on, he needs to deal with it. He keeps asking me to bring him home and now he's threatening to run away.
    He isn't a bad kid, no drugs (he has chosen a straight edge lifestyle and won't take even legal drugs) he's intelligent and charming when he feels like it, but all my friends can see the manipulations he saw my ex using resurfacing in him.
    He's only 17...am I doing the right thing? What if he runs from the shelter? It's driving me crazy and my stomach is sick all the time. I know he thinks I chose my girlfriend over him, or she's the reason I am trying to be tougher (admittedly hard for me, as I am much much better at placation than authority). I accept my responsibility in not being consistent with him, and babying him, but...
    Anyway, I am sorry for the book, but I am hoping someone here has been through something similar and can help me calm down or give advice.
    bex
     
  2. toughlovin

    toughlovin Guest

    OK My situation is different because my son definitely has a drug problem... but yours does not and I think that is important. So I think in your situation what I would do is go and meet with him and say you can come home but there are some very clear requirements for your living at home. You need to be doing something productive... school a job or volunteer work but something. It is not healthy for you to sit around all day and do nothing but play video games. I work hard and I am not going to live with someone again who totally takes advantage of me. So that is the rule, you find something productive to do and you can come home. Then stick to your guns. I don't know the law where you live but I don't believe in most places you can really refuse him a place to live until he is 18. He is young and I think staying in a homeless shelter is really really rough for anyone but particuarly someone so young and especially if he has social issues and tends to get bullied. Others here may have a different take but those are my thoughts. I am sorry you had to find us, it can be so hard to know at this age what to do. I would leave your girlfriend completely out of it and ask her to stay out of it as well. He is your son and I think it will be important to him for this to really be between the two of you, not the three of you. I also would let go of the getting up and going to bed times. He is almost 18 and he needs to feel like he has some choices in his life... at that age he really should be able to decide what times he goes to bed as long as he is not disturbing anyone else.... and as long as he is doing something other than playing video games.
     
  3. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Dear Bex,
    I agree with everything toughlovin said. I am also curious...when your son was hospitalized was he prescribed any medication, anitidepressants? I would be concerned about his emotional stability given what you have shared regarding all the bullying he's experienced...That is SO sad. Kids can be so cruel.

    I'm glad you found us...And SO glad your son is not a drug addict. I have two sons that are addicts and life has been a roller coaster of sorts for over 10 yrs now. So thank goodness you've been spared that particular he11.

    Hugs,
    LMS
     
  4. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    Hello and welcome!

    Not sure where you live, but I think you DO need to look into the laws in your area...

    You may be in some legal trouble if you simply kick him out at this age. You may in be MORE legal trouble if he runs off and does something really stupid.

    So that's probably first.

    ((((hugs)))

    I know it's tough...
     
  5. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    I'm not sure I agree about not requiring a wake-up time; it depends on how late he's sleeping in. Certainly, for a 17-year-old who has dropped out of high school and isn't working or looking for a job (despite being told to), asking that he be up and about by 10 AM seems fine by me. The legal requirement that parents house, feed, and clothe a child until the age of 18 doesn't mean that a parent is required to coddle an idling high school drop-out.

    My difficult child nephew, also a high school drop out (due to refusing to go to school) at 17, was permitted by his mother to get up at whatever time he pleased due to the "he's 17 and not a child--I can't ask him to get up at a given time." The result: he partied all night and slept in every day until at least 3 PM and often closer to dinner time. He got NOTHING done, of course. That's NOT acceptable. Even if your kid isn't doing drugs or partying every night, being a drop-out and sleeping in every day and not job-hunting is NOT acceptable.

    Being in a teen homeless shelter is a drag, to be sure. But if you can legally get away with it (I don't know the laws in your state), I'd not let him come home until he's VERY compliant about living by your rules. The legal requirement to house a child until he's 18 doesn't mean that you have to treat him like a crown prince or endure gross laziness, disobedience regarding your household rules (or ANY rules you enact--it's YOUR house, not his), and so on.

    If it were me, and I had to comply with the law regarding providing shelter on my property for an idling, disobedient 17-year-old child? I'd buy a tent at Walmart and pitch it in the backyard for him: it's summer time, so it's not unhealthy to live in a tent this time of year. Or toss a mattress on the floor in the garage. Or in a tool shed in the back yard, if you have one. You get my point: if he's not going to comply with YOUR rules in YOUR household, he can sleep/live outside the house but on your property and under cover of tent or garage or shed.
     
  6. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    Again -

    you must check the laws in your area, first.

    Letting anyone "live" in your toolshed may violate any number of laws and ordinances.
     
  7. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Hi bex,

    Welcome to the board, and glad you found a safe/soft place to land.


    Well - I see a lot of things going on here with your son. And while you don't 'know' me? A lot of things that you say may or may not be what they seem. Without knowing you and your son, your history it's kinda hard to play helper, but just from the little bit you've told us - I'm going to give it a stab from a friends point of view. Don't let it make ya mad or defensive - that's not what we're here for at all. This place is all about helping. If I get it wrong - just come and say NOooooope. Then you and I will regroup and go from there - As of right now? I onlly have what you've posted and my thinking between the lines, raising boys, and years of idiot ex husband to go on with kids who just really never understood and girlfriends who liked to jump in and sabatoge the entire thing with their opinions (Thank you very much NO) like Daisy said - this is none of her business as MUCh as she wants to help - she really needs to back off. Friends or not - this is just complicating an already complicated situation and trust me - your son will appreciate her keeping her nose out of YOUR business. Right now however - he has a MAJOR bully complex and well- to be frank - anyone older, bolder - and louder? He's going to shut down - she's all of those. So he's not going to challenge her - he's just going to internalize what he feels about her and anger internalized is depression. Again - not helping.

    Secondly? He's P.O.d. He's really angry about a LOT of things in his life. Oh and who is he gonna tell? YOU ? Pft.....nah. Not gonna happen. Don't try, don't beg - give it up. You and him - besties? Right? yeah - well NOT now. He's an 18 year old boy and you and him have been you and him against the world and it SEEMS like besties - but RIGHT NOW? He needs someone besides YOU to talk to about the anger and YOU can't mention it at ALL. NOT.ONE.WORD. But that's why he's leaving. YUP. he's trying really hard NOT to blow up - So where does he get help? I'm thinking he probably went to the shelter because if your girlfriend is living there with you (for whatever reason) He's angry about it. He's not over his Dad and your marriage /divorce - and hey - lemme tell ya - it was a bad marriage for YOU-----but that was HIS Daddy. Yeah you can't talk to him about THAT either. The sun rises and sets on a boys Father. When does he figure out that the man is Satan incarnate? Ugh - (laughs) Well my jury is kinda still out on that one - but you can't say a word to him - something he has to figure out on his own. Therapy would help, a buddy a good one - a mentor would help your son tremendously. Someone that he knew would have his back. A grandpa, an uncle? Someone that would NOT buy his load of poo. I'm 18 I can sleep in, I'm being picked on, I'm lazy....He needs someone to kick his butt - and it has to be a dude. A guy that will take him and do GUY things with him - and YOU butt out of it. Not ask questions, not be in the middle of it - just let it be. And it has to happen more than once a week.

    I'm wondering if there is a big brothers program or a YAPS (youth advocate program) or at the least maybe a volunteer program with peace corps or something he's REALLY interested in? He needs a man mentor that will take an interest in him help him with his self esteem issues keep him busy - keep his hands busy, make him feel like his days are not wasted...keep his mind occupied. I bet he is incredibly talented at something - what? Is there a chance that you can get him to go to therapy? Anger management? The reason I say that is because of the cutting. He needs to learn better ways to control his rage - new techniques ----how about a gym membership or tae kwon do where he is learning self discipline with a sensai? Boxing? Working in a gym with a coach? How about a YMCA membership?

    Those are things that YOU can find out about for him and casually take him to for a free lesson or two - and see if there is any interest - work something out with the coach without the kid knowing. maybe trade out cleaning up around one of the places for lessons...let him ride a bike there......

    He needs some sort of schedule in his life - some outlet .......and while I believe that he needs a job where he is earning money - and NOTHING is coming from you unless he works for it? Right now? I think he has bigger issues. Anger - self-esteem....lots of things.

    These like I said - are just MY opinions - and again - DO NOT discuss these with him or your girlfriend or anywhere he can hear them ----the absolute best thing? Therapy. If he won't go - YOU go. Show him that there is nothing to be ashamed of by going yourself and after a few sessions - invite him to go - you said yourself if you ask him he'll do practically anything for you - so why not this?

    I'm with the others on moving back into OUR home with rules etc -but what you have GOT to stop doing is feeling sorry for him - HE knows you do. He had a crappy dad, he's had a crappy life. He's had a sad little this, a sad that - I want it to be good for him. Yeah? Well LOTS of kids have had it worse. What about them?????? WE all have choices....Lots of kids have had it WAY worse and have done fine in life - really. You feel sorry for him? Why shouldn't he? You want him to be SOMEONE? Something? You start showing him that YOU EXPECT MORE OUT OF HIM!!!!!!!! HE has to see that FROM YOU!!!!! And you have to start SHOWING HIM - THAT YOU ----are doing and showing him HOW to expect more out of your own life even though life handed you a basket of poo. Yup - I had a rotten husband that was a poor example for you - SO I EXPECT MORE OUT OF YOU - I'm NOT A POOR EXAMPLE FOR YOU!!!!! You've had a hard life - and people get a little bullying with you sometimes - YUP - BUT WE HAVE WEATHERED SOME PRETTY TOUGH JUNK THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVEN'T HAD TO - and LOOK AT US - JUST LOOK AT US!!!!!! YOU AND I ARE TOUGH....people who say things have NO idea the stuff we've survived - let them say what they want - If we can live through that - WE CAN DO ANYTHING.....

    I mean - you will find your own way to get through to him - But don't let him get on the USS Pity boat. I told my kid - if that's the ship he wanted to sail? Weigh anchor - I wasn't stopping him - but I was hoisting sails to bluer waters. And his biofather absolutely positively qualifies for never getting Father of the year - and I think after a year and a half of seeking out that wisdom? he's figured it out. But you just have to let them do that sometimes.

    Anger management is good too - not necessarily the same as therapy and sometimes a lot easier to talk an 18 year old into attending than regular therapy - FYI.

    Hope something in this helps you and him.

    Welcome - and no offense to girlfriend NO doubt she cares about you and your welfare very very much - this is just one of those things where she's going to need to love you and him from a distance and let you work this out with your son.

    Hugs
    Star
     
  8. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I think the others all have good points. Esp Star and what NOT to talk about. Personally? He would have a job before he lived with me and had any electronic anything. I would lock them up and he would be OUT of my house the hours I am at work unless he had a job and worked full time nights or evening. I would let him come home maybe before he finds a job, but NOT to what he had before.

    You are legally required to provide shelter, food, clothing, a mattress (on the floor is find), pillow, sheets/blanket, a light in the room (ceiling light is fine). Clothing should be what you can find for cheap - NOT whatever he wants. Food? What will fill his belly NOT what he wants to eat.

    Go into his room and strip everything else out. leave an alarm clock. He wants music? Get a job and buy a radio. Want a computer and the internet? GO buy a computer - and you will have to prove you got the money legally and you pay for the internet service. No job? I don't care if you bought the computer - it won't live in your room in MY HOUSE. You don't do chores> You don't eat anything but beans and rice (or noodles if he likes rice). You disrespect me? YOu get your own place to live. You refuse to go to therapy and/or take the medications the docs rx? You don't live here.

    Get him into a MALE therapist. Get him a mentor. Write out the rules, present them to him, and let him know that you have stripped his room. IF he wants his nice clothes, the food you usually provide, the computer/tv/internet/radio/mp3 player/whatever? He follows each and every single rule to the letter, does EVERY chore the way you want it done, and he is RESPECTFUL and compliant with therapy. YOU make sure the therapist is sane and good - go see him first and go to a session every few weeks.

    Above all - he works for a GED and has a full time job or starts a business mowing lawns iwth a push mower or dog walking or whatever. He saves money to get an education.

    Your girlfriend is good in encouraging you to make some demands on him and not placate and treat him like a princeling. But other than encouraging you to do what you say, follow through always and NOT feel sorry for him, she needs to BUTT OUT. It isn't her son or her home. And it isn't her business. Let her raise her own kids and dealw ith her own home and business.
     
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Welcome to the board.

    Star made some really good points.

    I'm sure your girlfriend means well because she cares about you, but from your son's point of view......she's sticking her nose in where it has no business being and he's going to resent it in a major way, most especially at the age he is at now.

    My house rules were ones I knew I could stick to no matter what, same with the consequences. Because if you don't stick to them, to a kid they have no meaning. And for a kid who is using/trying manipulation every time you back down on a consequence you lose ground with them. And that ground is hard to regain.

    I don't see waking at 10am as unreasonable. Although at that age mine weren't allowed to sleep in. Well, they could "try" but Mom had a way of making enough noise ect that it never worked out that way. lol

    And you're right.........your son just sitting around doing nothing or just hanging out with friends is NOT good for him. He needs something constructive and productive to do with his time. How about GED classes at the local community college? Then he has something to do AND gets to graduate and have a diploma. While he's there he might discover something that interests him......he may find that he likes the environment much better than high school......and sign up for classes after that GED.

    With my easy child and Travis........they both knew long before leaving high school what they wanted to do with their lives. Nichole had so many interests she couldn't seem to choose, the choice was daunting to her, and she was afraid of failure for quite a while.

    I have a standing rule with adult kids. It's work full time or school full time or find somewhere else to be. You don't get to be a perpetual kid. Your goal now should be helping him become an independent adult.

    If he is depressed it needs to be treated. If he's not willing to use medication, then he needs to see a professionals regardless to learn to deal with the depression/anger issues without medication. It's not just magically going to go away.


    hugs
     
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I'm really a BIG believer in leaving new honeys/girlfriends or men OUT of decisions we make for our children, no matter how old the children are. Our kids hated our divorce (which happened because of OUR poor decisions) and I have never met a teenager who was thrilled that his parent(s) started dating somebody else. It is embarassing and awkward for them to think of Dad or Mom having sex with anyone other than their own parent and they tend to resent the intruder. I totally don't blame the kids.

    In my case, until we were almost married, the kids were not involved in my hub and my relationship. Until I was SURE it was going to work out, I didn't want to drag them through MY love life and demanding partners that were not related to them. I think this should be strictly between YOU and your son. I would ask girlfriend to back off...he does not respect her yet, if he ever will, and does not consider her somebody who should have a say-so over his life. I may be alone here, but I totally agree. Our kids have got to come first.

    I do think you and son should sit down and work out rules. If he refuses to follow them, then YOU decide (alone) what the consequences will be, even if it means he has to leave home. No teenager who is a high school dropout should be sleeping all day and not looking vigorously for a job. I may have made it a rule that he has to get his GED if he wants to come home. He will get nowhere without one.

    I hope this helped. I had one very difficult teenager too (she straightened out) and my kids did have experience with a stepfather...nothing good happened there until stepfather and me decided that HE would not discipline; that it would be myself and my ex doing that. It was quite effective as far as relaxing the household.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
     
  11. dashcat

    dashcat Member

    Welcome and hugs. You've come to the right place.

    Last summer, my difficult child (then 19) lived here for three months. She had dropped out of college, had no job, looovvvved to sleep until noon and expected to be able to hang out on Facebook or on hercell phone all day.

    She expected this because, in the two months that she'd lived with her dad after leaving college, this was what she did.

    She moved in on a Saturday (and, to complicate things, I was moving BACK into my home following a house fire) and the weekend went swimmingly for her ... she helped with the moving and clean up after dinner but that was it.

    On Monday, I marched into her room at 9:00 and announced it was wake up time. I told her, as long as she was not working outside this house, she would work in and around it ...eight hours a day with one hour for lunch. She could have the weekends off and, on thos days, sleep in if she wished. I handed her a list and put her to work.

    She was less than thrilled, but I wasn't in the negotiaing mode. I was working more than those eight hours around here and she really had no choice. If I saw her on the computer, I kicked her off until her "break". I also said she didn't have to work around here as long as she was looking for a job. She had a job in three weeks - as it was WAY easier than the kind of work I was imosing on her here.

    She now lives with her dad. She is currently unemployed, not looking for work (though she pretends), sleeps till 2 or 3 in the afternoon and dad considers it an accomplishment on his part if he leaves her a note to empty the dishwasher and he complies! He has a cleaning lady and lives in a condo with no yard maintenance. She watches Neflix all day, hangs out of FB and is l iving the life of the queen of Sheba.

    They'll do what they can get away with. You will get what y ou'll tolerate. It's not easy to stick to your guns and, sometimes they still find a way around it (as in mine simply relocating to the happy house of dad), but only YOu can draw boundaries in your home. And you'll be doing him a huge favor if you do.

    Dash
     
  12. dashcat

    dashcat Member

    Yikes! I think I sounded unintentionally snarky in my post below. By NO means did I mean to imply that anybody here is tolerating lazy difficult child behavior. What I meant to say (but did so badly) was that we have to wook extra hard to put boundaries in place in order for our kids not to make doormats out of us. In the case of my d aughter and last summer ... it worked for awhile and it worked in that, when she decided to behave badly, not work, etc, she left and moved in with her dad. I miss her, but I know that holding the line was the right thing. Hope I didn't offend anyone.
    Dash
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2011
  13. toughlovin

    toughlovin Guest

    Dash I didn't think you sounded snarky... a really good idea actually. I had similar thoughts about my easy child daughter this summer. She has a two week volunteer job and we are going away for 3 weeks but otherwise she has way too much free time and I was getting anxious about thinking about home just hanging out watching tv etc. I have to watch my anxiety because i go to this place where I get scared that she will somehow follow the path of my difficult child.... and she is a different kid and so so different in so many ways. Anyway I thought of giving her a list of jobs to do around the house since she was home.Well you know what, and here lies the difference, she has decided she wants to take over difficult children room because it is a much nicer larger room. This really makes sense and so we said yes.... so she has started cleaning it out (and since husband and I have a bunch of stuff in there too we need to clear our stuff out), and is looking at paint. She is planning on fixing the wholes in the walls and painting it herself. She did this with her other room so I know she can totally do it. So this is what a healthy teenager with good self esteem does, she had all this free time and she came up with her own project to keep herself busy... plus various healthy social activities. This never happened with my difficult child and still doesn't but thankfully he is not living at home.
     
  14. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    TL--

    You are exactly right! A "typical" teen finds all kinds of things to get involved with on their own. They set goals - and figure out ways to achieve them: get a job, study hard, whatever...

    difficult children, if left to their own devices, tend to drift until they land in trouble.
     
  15. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    I have lately found this kind of fascinating: all of the primary conduct/personality disorders emphasize misconduct issues as their primary traits (i.e., ODD = defiance, CD = criminality/violating the rights of others, ASPD = amorality & remorselessness), but all of them have, as a secondary but invariable feature, absolutely bottomless laziness. I have wondered at times if this shouldn't be regarded not as a secondary "oh, there's also this" kind of feature but rather as a central, almost definitive feature. difficult children--every last one of them--seem to be almost peculiarly, pathologically lazy. What's up with that?

    Neuroscience has pretty much identified the source of the amorality & remorselessness & lack of empathy in the primary conduct disorders: it's the under-functioning of the so-called "empathy circuit" between the amygdala and the neocortex, which malfunction disables the capacity to learn from experience, the development of a moral faculty and thus a conscience, the ability to love, and so on. But this pervasive, invariable gross laziness--again, what's up with that? Where does it come from? Its absolute regularity among difficult children is very striking--they seem to completely lack the faculty of willpower, of being able to summon the will and drive to get even the simplest tasks done. My nephew difficult child would rather sleep under an overpass then get a job. I just don't get it--it seems pathological rather than "chosen." Your thoughts/ideas on this?
     
  16. toughlovin

    toughlovin Guest

    Interesting. I wonder if it is really laziness or an inability to figure out what to do or how to do it. My son when he was 12 really really wanted to get certified in scuba diving. He and my husband took the class together. They had the book etc. and my son came home and studied it, I mean really studied it and of course passed the test. This was something he wanted and so he did the work for it. Also while he was at the Residential Treatment Center (RTC) he was at, we were told he was the workhorse of the group. They all felt he had a great work ethic.....??? we were happy and surprised at that. He never showed that at home!!! Now he has a job and the little I hear he is doing a good job and I am sure he is working hard. Yet I think he gets lost when he has to take initiative in things he is unsure about etc... yet given direction in something HE wants to do he does great. Now he is oppositional and is not great when it is somethng he does not want to do... and i certainly think pot smoking saps any motivation you have... but I do believe if he could find a path he really wanted he would be motivated and would work hard at it. I just think most difficult children have multiple issues that make them unable or unwilling to do the things most healthy teens do.
     
  17. dashcat

    dashcat Member

    My daughter often spends more energy avoiding work than she would spend actually working. I find this infuriating, puzzling and -a t times - amusing. I've said that she did not become a difficult child until later in life but, in this area, she has been a difficult child forever. In the third grade, she was in a G&T program. The kids were given an assignment where they did playground interviews, recorded their findings on an Excel spreadsheet and wrote a report. The teacher, kinowing difficult child, pulled her aside and said "You need to write an entire PAGE on each of your findings". She kniew difficult child would write a sentance and be done with it. difficult child's solution? She tore a piece of notebook paper into tiny strips, wrote a sentance or two on each of her findings and turned it in! Ah - if only such creative energy were spent actually working!

    I roped her into helping me spread mulch a few weeks ago. She'd called and wanted to come play the piano, so she couldn't say she was busy or anything. Getting her to work is WORK, but she did help. I then offered to take her for ice cream. We went in the house to get the keys and I told her to wash her hands (yes, she is twenty and has to be told this). We got outside and I said "go back in and wash your hands." She said "I'll just use the baby wipes in the car.". I mean we were FILTHY from this mulch, but she'd rather eat ice cream with filthy hands - or use the baby wipes in the glove box - than walk 15 feet to the sink!!!

    She takes "lazy" into an art form.
    Dash
     
  18. mrsammler

    mrsammler Guest

    Oh, I can do you one better: my difficult child nephew wouldn't even the flush the toilet after using it. EVER. It was evidently too much trouble.

    You can imagine what Herculean forebearance it took for me to remain in the same home with him for 14 months before finally leaving in utter disgust and frustration.
     
  19. dashcat

    dashcat Member

    You win, MrSam! That is beyond disgusting.
     
  20. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Not flushing must be a BOY thing - I've talked to more men who are so off put by that particular lax, and disgusting habit. The one that I found even MORE disgusting was that men cared to discuss it with me. (sorry Mr. Sam, but DF would go out of his way to have potty talk with me about Dude and it was absolutely the MOST off putting thing in my world and Dude was encopretic) at some point you just figured potty talk was kaput. My thought was 'First you can't get him to GO in the toilet. NOW he goes in the toilet and doesn't flush and you have to complain about THAT? There is no pleasing you. Of course this disgusting discussion came to a 'head' (pun intended) when we brought it up with the therapist. Imagine the eye rolling that night when "will flush toilet" was added to the ACCOMPLISHABLE CHORE list.

    Yeah there's one you can discuss with your backyard BBQ friends. Oh wait - No one wants to come to OUR BBQ. It's as disgusting as our toilet.
     
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