I made him leave.

[Ironbutterfly]

COPA he owns the way you reacted. Not you. He were kind to him, gave him a place to stay. He disrespected you. Actions have consequences. He got the consequence of his actions.

 

[Copabanana]

When it is another mother, with another son, I can see it. It seems so clear. Of course your son chose.

I can see that my own son did, too. I told him that. But there is so much wanting for things to be OK, better, alright, good. Even trying to protect myself, there is grief and fear.

I read your post on my first thread, Ironbutterfly. I have come a long way. I know now the key is taking care of us, myself, of keeping our life together safe. I am thinking a lot about returning to work. Not real soon, but eventually. I am thinking about projects. About friends and camping. Of cross country travel, and really believing we will do it.

In my heart I know I do not want to do much more self-sacrifice.

Our sons I think fear when we decide for ourselves. I think as much as he needed a place, he crashed into our house, to make sure he still could, that I was still here for him. I was, but not like he would have wanted. That is OK.

Thank you very much.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

I may be cut off internet again. M told Comcast they were horrible and we would not pay. I am going there tomorrow to try to work it out. If you do not hear from me, you know why. Take care, all.

COPA

 

[New Leaf]

Oh oh good luck Copa, I hope you can work it out. I will miss you my friend. Hurry back. Take care and don't be away too long.......
(((Hugs)))
leafy

 

[New Leaf]

They know most of us won't freak out over pot so they say they use pot. Do not be surprised if you find out one day it is far more. We can't trust what they say.

I hope I'm wrong. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

Hugs and more hugs. And mucho love.

Mucho love back at you Serenity. I am sure there is more to it then what is mentioned. I do know that she is hooked on pot, probably other stuff, too. Thank you for your honesty, it is much appreciated. I have been through too much to trust my twos' words.....unfortunately. Nothing would surprise me at this point.
Just hope one day they can get away from the grip of drugs. One day........
(((Hugs)))
leafy

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

My son told me yesterday Tuesday morning, I think it was: "I was afraid you would not let me in the house. That you would turn me away. I thought I would have nobody. I had nobody."

Copa, the kids know the vulnerable places in us. They know the horror in it for us when they create for us the imagery that will move us to protect them or give them money or food or time or another chance. They do this intentionally. That is why it is so important that we journal about the incident, or post about it here, or do whatever it is that we need to do to keep the facts of what is happening clear in our minds, and to keep the reasons why we make the choices we make in response to them clear in our minds. To hear our child say words like "I had nobody." destroys something in us. It hurts me to read them. Those words your son used are the stuff of nightmares for a parent. In the night, those are the words that echo when we cannot sleep ~ and those are the words that will keep us hooked into enabling behaviors. What I learned over time was that the kids say many hurtful or frightening things. The ones we remember, the ones that send us spinning into the FOG state, are the ones the kids will use again and again because they work.

The kids are trapped, too. It isn't that they are bad people. It is that they are in desperate situations. That is why they do it. For us to be able to stay with our behaviors we have decided are correct behaviors and decisions where the kids are concerned, we need to be able to face the most hurtful things the kids have said and find answers to ourselves. We need to know, when we face ourselves in the mirror in the morning, what the stakes are, and why we are making the decisions we are making where our children are concerned. We will not be able to stand our ground unless we know we are correct in the positions we take. This does not mean we cannot change our minds, take them in, give them whatever it was that they wanted. What it does mean is that we understand why we are doing whatever it is we have decided to do, and that we have weighed consequences, and that we are responding from our best, highest intentions for ourselves and our kids. We need to be proactive in our self management. Nothing about any of this is easy or right. Every decision has consequences, most of them immeasurably worse than we could ever have believed.

Every choice.

Even giving the kids what they want.

We need to remember that we are not bad people. Our kids are not bad people. It is the situation that is bad.

We are people who do our best to respond to impossibly hurtful situations. When we regret a decision, we think it through and learn from it and respond in that better way we have decided upon the next time.

That is who we are.

People who do our best that we know or can learn.

Sometimes, we are broken shells of ourselves. But we still do the best we know.

***

We need to find answers that comfort our own hearts, or the kids will destroy us with our love for them and our worry for them, and we will all go down the rabbit hole Albatross posts to us about.

It hurts my heart to hear those words your son spoke.

He knows you so well, Copa.

The worst thing about the terrible things that happen to our families when the kids are so troubled is the loneliness that happens between the parents. We tear ourselves apart, in our desperation to save the kids. Our mates are no longer the most important people in our lives. There is no laughter. There is no comfort.

Everything goes nightmare.

And then, we go to work the next day.

I don't know how we do it. We become very strong.

It is alot of pain to carry.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

The thing is what does me in is my own conflict about it all. There were moments he was here I was so grateful to have him close, to feel that he has mellowed somewhat, when he said that he thought he might be all alone, with nobody. I believed him.

Yes.

That is our position.

You are doing well, Copa. I am sorry for the hurt of it. I love it too when I am near one of my people. Just the feel of them, the scent of them; just to look into their eyes. It's like in the cartoons, when the music begins to play and the birds sing. It's so goofy, but it is also very real. Brief, utter joy. I believe they feel the same way...but then the situation intrudes. The manipulations begin, the shading of what they believe is true or matters turns in to what they want.

For us, the need to decide.

It is very hard.

***

It is the situation that is bad.

I am glad you were able to be near to your son, Copa.

It helps me to remember I have the power I have in the situation. I have my words. I want for the child turned man (or woman) what I want: Independence and self respect. My child is neither a beggar nor a victim. I will watch myself closely so I do not enable. I will do what I have to do to help him do the right thing.

You are doing well, Copa.

It is the situation that is hard.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Except for one thing. I waited until I exploded. I should have, the next morning, told him: You had your night. You need to make your next step for yourself.

I disagree.

You were brave. You reacted to your son appropriately given his behaviors. Maybe, if I hadn't been always so afraid of my own anger that I never blew up, my children's lives would have been very different. I was forever dealing with the situation that existed. I fixed things, Copa. One of the things I would do differently now is that I would be an explosive force to be reckoned with. Then, my kids would have been too afraid of me to do what they did do. With impunity, those little brats, and look where that got us all.

Your son needs to get it that you mean what you say. Had you waited until morning, you would have said nothing I think, Copa. That is how I do it, too. Oh, so reasonable.

There is not one reasonable thing about any of this, Copa.

I am glad you got mad.

Your son will think twice about his behaviors in future.

Stop beating yourself up. If we are going to be guilty Copa, let it be for something we actually did that was wrong, and not because we were not perfect.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

I would be an explosive force to be reckoned with.

Cedar, should I have turned him away at the door in the night? Waited to the next morning? Or what I did, try to meet him halfway, to see how it would go?

Had you waited until morning, you would have said nothing I think, Copa. That is how I do it, too. Oh, so reasonable.

I did wait until morning, Cedar. And to the next morning. And it was that late morning that I exploded.

M says that in the car my son lamented all of the problems in me. Hysteria. Irrational anger. Who knows what else.

The thing is once they contradict what you say: You cannot come home even for one night, there is no right thing. How can it get right, when what you want has been transgressed?

M told my son: This is not about your mother. You have to learn that what ever she says is the right thing. Or do not come home. Do not come home until you give her the respect that she merits.

M carried my son to the house he is repairing. He told him you will have to make your next step by next month. You cannot stay here indefinitely. But it is between M and my son, for now.

I did the best I could.

COPA

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

M told my son: This is not about your mother. You have to learn that what ever she says is the right thing. Or do not come home. Do not come home until you give her the respect that she merits.

Yes.

It doesn't feel right Copa, but this is the right thing.

Your son is a man. Treat him as such. That is what he needs, Copa.

M is correct.

Cedar

 

[Albatross]

should I have turned him away at the door in the night? Waited to the next morning? Or what I did, try to meet him halfway, to see how it would go?

See, that's the thing, at least for me. I think there's a right course of action, and if I find it and take it, all will be well. But I don't control how it goes. There is no *right* course of action before the fact, only afterward, when I look at what I MIGHT have done. So then I berate myself for not prognosticating and/or controlling the future and what other people do/say/think.

Copa, I would have done exactly what you did, especially with the (albeit somewhat small) changes you have seen in him lately. I would have met him halfway, and seen how it would go.

So it didn't go as you'd hoped. Maybe you set your sights too high. You can forgive yourself for that, right? And for expressing your disappointment/anger/hurt? We are not machines, we are human beings.

Plus, I have come to believe that our "losing" it" on occasion is just the raw truth of what they are doing to the people around them. Letting them see and feel that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Quite honestly, I get a lot more respect from my son since I "went off" on him. I don't like being that person and don't want to be her again, but I don't regret letting him see her.

 

[Copabanana]

My son is staying in a home M is remodeling (that is what he told my son). Actually, it will be my office. I own it. He does not know. Before I made my son leave I went into the bedroom where M was and said, "Can he go there?" And when my son was lurking outside waiting for M, after I ejected him, *triangulating, M took him there.

M this morning went there to bring my son's phone and debit card. My son complained he has no money and needs for M to drive him here to our house to get his vitamins.

When M told me, I said no. I want nothing to do with him and his games.

With every single game he plays I will say: If you have no money manage it better or tell Social Security you want a payee. If he comes to my door I will bring all the vitamins in the house to the door and let him choose (they are in a tray). I will not let him in.

They do this to us. Make us batten down the hatches, as if against some fierce intruder, when all they were were our babies. No more.

Thank you all.

COPA

 

[PennyFromTheBlock]

I've been reading along and I have to say that I learn so much from you guys. ((hugs)) Copa. Mothers/sons has such a dynamic, don't they? /sigh.

 

[Copabanana]

Mothers/sons has such a dynamic, don't they?

It never ends. He came to my door. M let him in. He wanted his stuff. Fine. Can I have these two cans of tuna Mom? No. What about the clothes of mine you said you have? Here. Take them.

I just got a call from his friend. The woman where he was staying is talking about suing him for breaking things in her apartment. She took his $500 and kicked him out.

The friend wants to locate my son in order that he speak with the woman directly (good.)

His friend (so nice) said he paid somebody to clean up the place because my son left it dirty and he did not see anything broken. He thinks the woman is overreacting. *I feel sure (I hope) my son thought he would clean up before he left, but was kicked out in the night.

I told him: my son needs to reimburse you. Please do not take responsibility for anything that is my son's responsibility.

The friend said, Son was upset when he had to leave. I tried to find someplace else for him, but I ran out of options.

It is not your responsibility, I said. Son needs to figure out how to do this himself.

I feel so weary.

COPA

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I feel so weary.

But you are doing the next right thing. You are seeing clearly. You are refusing to pop into denial, or to roar into protective mother role ~ or into any role.

Cedar

 

[A dad]

If you do not mind asking what bothers you most about your son that that well makes you mad?
Or its all the flaws combined?

 

[New Leaf]

With every single game he plays I will say: If you have no money manage it better or tell Social Security you want a payee. If he comes to my door I will bring all the vitamins in the house to the door and let him choose (they are in a tray). I will not let him in.

They do this to us. Make us batten down the hatches, as if against some fierce intruder, when all they were were our babies. No more.

Thank you all.

COPA

It is the hardest thing, when all we would like to be able to do is give a big hug, kiss, sit down and have a decent conversation. I can do this with my easy children. With my two, I have to keep my guard up. I am not viewed in their eyes as a person, I am merely an opportunity.
This is a hard reality, but the truth, for me.
Whether it is drugs, or mental illness onset with drugs, I do not know.
All I know is that I have to protect myself, my heart.

I love it too when I am near one of my people. Just the feel of them, the scent of them; just to look into their eyes. It's like in the cartoons, when the music begins to play and the birds sing. It's so goofy, but it is also very real. Brief, utter joy. I believe they feel the same way...but then the situation intrudes. The manipulations begin, the shading of what they believe is true or matters turns in to what they want.

This is so true Cedar, every word of it. I think it is a good way to look at it...the situation intrudes.....
I think that when my two see me, they may feel an inkling of love, but their situation with drug use, continues the patterns of triangulation and manipulation.
To them, I am the reason for all of their troubles. They keep up this shield about them, I am the "bad mother", it enables them to continue to blame me for all of their troubles, and be disrespectful, cunning.
So it is up to me, to see through this shield. First, I must protect myself, guard my heart. I must know that I love them, but also what they are capable of when near me.

This you are doing Copa. It is the hardest thing.
You are being very strong, and very smart.
Keep guarding your heart Copa.

You are seeing clearly. You are refusing to pop into denial, or to roar into protective mother role ~ or into any role.

I agree. You are doing the right thing.

(((HUGS)))
...and steady state.

leafy

 

[Copabanana]

I am checking in only. I cannot answer in depth. I was very ill last night. All night. Vomiting what I think was blood until dawn. A doctor told me that black vomit is blood.

I am fragile, desperate, weak this morning.

I have to do something to protect myself. What that will be I do not know.

COPA

 

[AppleCori]

((((hugs))))

Is there anywhere you can go to get away from the house for a while?

 

[Copabanana]

When M went to the house where my son is staying my son mentioned the inadequate hot water. Mind you, he is paying nothing. According to him he has nowhere else to go.

If you do not mind asking what bothers you most about your son that that well makes you mad?

This is a brilliant question and if I could answer it I would be better off.

I think the issue for me is more the relationship between us, and not so much about him. I think I turned to the relationship with my son to fill holes in myself. And when he grew up those holes in myself became manifest, just as much as his difficulties became so. Much of it is about me, I fear.

Let me come at it backwards and sideways. I adopted my son. Really I had nobody else. I did not have my family. Any family. I had no life partner. I had set my sights on a career as meeting my needs, a way to get stronger and more secure. Not financially. I was seeking worth as a person. I felt I had none.

When I found out my father was dead I spun out into a bad depression. I had not seen him or spoken to him in the 5 years before he died. I was told he died 4 years after the fact.

I decided I needed more in my life, a child, another person, that I could not live with only me anymore, me and my ambition. It all felt hollow and meaningless.

I had been trying to solve the problem of "me" for all my adult life. I was very goal oriented. I always had friends. I went to college. I worked always. I got good jobs. I went into intensive psychotherapy. I paid for it myself. My issues: I was afraid of men. I had flings, dates, friends, lovers, and one great love. Just before I had learned my father had died this great love had left. I was devastated.

During that time I became convinced that I had had a history of sexual abuse. I say this because I want to convey what my son meant to me. Everything. Into this fractured life, I brought a child, himself with problems.

He had nobody, either. For a dozen years we were two peas in a pod. It was a great love story. And then it wasn't.

My son was always disorganized. Needed Special Education for ADHD type behaviors. But nothing ever touched us. Our love sustained us both.

We had great adventures. We traveled a lot and lived a lot in foreign countries. He became tri-lingual.

At first when he got oppositional, it was not that big of a deal. Maybe because I felt strong then. Strong and capable. I had a lot of success in my work. The traveling. I felt strong.

I will summarize here: By 18 or so he became depressed. Dramatic. Self-indulgent. I had to push him to do anything or everything. He would not look for jobs or study unless pushed. He could not keep jobs.

He would talk about me to my neighbors. Gossip. Who would criticize me and talk about me together. I did not push him out early enough.

He blames everybody else for his problems. He is a terrible slob. He is disloyal. He can be arrogant. More and more he looks like a homeless person. He has been homeless off and on. He gets SSI. He cannot sustain a living situation. He does not want to work. He is bossy. Torn clothing.

I was hopeful when he went to live and work with a friend and his father. He worked hard for the friend who has a landscape concrete business. I set limits on phone calls. I did not want to see him. And then it all fell apart.

In a way it is as if I fell apart. He keeps going.

He does not have the fight as a person that I had, but in many ways he is stronger than I.

When he is here in our home he leaves horrible messes. He does not want to help in any way. The seductive piece of it, is that I love him. When he is close to me there are moments I find the old feelings. The great love for him. And then something happens and it turns into rage.

Or its all the flaws combined?

When people meet my son initially they are impressed (OK. Not now with the ratty clothes.) His manners. He is very smart. Articulate. Confident. Handsome. But he does not want to take responsibility for himself. When he secures an opportunity he imposes his own rules, and the opportunity blows up. He does not seem to learn from his mistakes. His judgment is very poor.

Is there anywhere you can go to get away from the house for a while?

For almost 2 years now we have been planning to go back East. It was never feasible because I could not get over my mother's death. Now there are responsibilities here. The boxer dog, Dolly, has a recurrence of her cancer. We are fixing up a property to rent.

Last night I got dreadfully ill, and I am still in bed today. I do not think my health or spirit can bear more. I am not sure if it is that I am an essentially weak and damaged person, if I am unable to accept my son as he is, or if he will not let me go.

But I cannot take it. I am so undermined. So completely undone. I have had some scary health diagnoses lately. But that does not mean I am dead yet.

But today I feel like I am almost dead. I feel more weak and dependent and bereft than I believe Serenity's Dad feels, with his lung cancer. All of the life and hope seems sucked out of me.

When my son is here in my town I cannot bear it. I feel like my life is over. I do not want to see or talk to him. I did this with my family, too. I think I am at heart a very weak and defective person. That is all I can say. I am very, very sad. And sick.

I would still love to go back east. Just leave my house for a while.