I'm Frustrated

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Hound dog, May 13, 2008.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Frustrated is putting it mildly. Nichole and boyfriend had another huge blow out (according to him) this afternoon.

    Now I've told this boy too many times to count NOT to call me during this stuff. Not only do I not want pulled into the drama, there is really not much I can do about anything anyway.

    Yet he has yet to stop calling or coming over to pull me into every darn one.:angry-very:

    First time he called Nichole hung up the phone. He called back and tried to tell me she was trashing his belongings and the house, that he'd had to "restrain her" again too many times to count, blah blah blah.:talkhand: Maybe I should be concerned, but honestly the boy lost my sympathy on this sort of thing a while back. I've told him repeatedly he has no business "restraining" Nichole and to call the police at the slightest hint of violence. Yet he never does. Never. Must not be too darn bad then, huh?

    And I've got a problem with this "restraining" bit of his too. If Nichole is so "violent" that he needs to restrain her, why is she the one who has bruises but not him? I've yet in all this time to see a single mark on the boy, but over and over after being "restrained" I see bruises on my daughter....and many of them in places no restraining hold should have put a bruise.

    Well, funny thing. Nichole got on the phone and her tone and all pretty much told me she was angry but not out of control. boyfriend was screaming like he'd went off the deep end in the background about her preventing him from getting to his midterms. Nichole calmly explained she'd been trying to come home with the baby and he wouldn't let her leave. He varified it screaming that she wasn't leaving til she cleaned up the mess. I told Nichole to simply walk out the door and come home. I figured if there was real damage, he'd call the police. Nichole promised me that was what she was doing.

    Not long after boyfriend dropped Nichole off at the house. There was no scene on Nichole's behalf. He left. Nichole stayed outside and I went out to see if she was ok and what had happened.

    This started because she tried to wake him up for class, the one he had the midterm for so he wouldn't be late.:greedy: She told me she didn't do what he said she did. That he'd been acting strangely lately, really aggitated, easily provolked....too easily provolked.

    I watched for her to take off her sweatshirt. She didn't. Tomorrow I'll keep an eye out for bruises.

    I did talk to her about the Cycle of Abuse. I reminded her that abuse doesn't have to be physical.

    All this time I've done my best to not take sides and to be objective. I'm no saint, but I've done my best. I know Nichole is no angel. But I also know Nichole has been trying hard and has changed a great deal in both her behavior and actions, even the way she speaks to boyfriend. Yet none of his behaivor has yet to change except for the worse.

    I do believe he's manipulative. I've seen too much of it. I know he has major issues of control. I know he uses her illness against her for everything. I know he calls her names, puts her down. I know because I've seen this.

    I don't know if they split over this last blow out. I know they weren't speaking when he left. (a first) I didn't pry too hard because Nichole was reluctant to talk.

    IF Nichole's behavior is so violent, why doens't he just call the police? Odds are that it would be enough to stop that behavior completely. It would scare the heck out of Nichole. (never been in trouble with the law before) But no matter how horrible he says it is supposed to be does he ever pick up the phone and dial 911. Not once. Why would he hesitate when her own mother has told him to do it?

    Is it just me or does that seem really odd?

    I'm worried Nichole is stuck in an abusive relationship. That by trying to stay objective maybe I've sent her the wrong message, that I think somehow she is at fault, or that I believed everything that boyfriend says she does. Because lately I've been seeing more "victim" behavior than "aggressor" behavior. (I'm talking months here) I've literally watched her take full blame for things that were not her fault simply because boyfriend harassed and hounded and caused so much drama she finally caved in.

    And I wonder about her violence because I know she was in a violent relationship once before boyfriend. Funny, she never hit the boy once.

    I dunno. I think I'm rambling now. But there is just something NOT adding up about boyfriend's behavior. And although I'm trying hard to be objective, it's stuck in my craw since before Nichole was pregnant. And it's weighing heavier on my mind since I've watched Nichole trying so hard all this time.

    I'd thought that when boyfriend and I'd talked that it would help some. It didn't. In these last several blow outs, it's been his behavior, not Nichole's that worries me.

    So, what do you do when you think you may have been manipulated too? Because I feel like boyfriend has been playing a game where he makes it look like Nichole is "crazy out of control" while he's the caring calm boyfriend victim, so behind the scenes he can do and get away with whatever he pleases because no one is gonna believe Nichole.

    If you want the truth, it was Nichole who looked like the whipped dog tonight, not boyfriend. Same for Mother's Day. Same for the past ones before that. How does the one supposedly causing all the "problems" always end up literally looking like the victim? And the so called victim never looks the worse for wear??

    Am I right to be suspicious? And if he's doing this, and managed to convince her I don't believe her either, how on earth do I fix that?

    Oh, God. What a mess.:pouting:

    If anyone has any advice I'm open. This situation is esculating fast and I don't know if I can stop it before something serious happens. Nichole is NOT open to talking to a domestic violence counselor. And boyfriend is showing the classic blow up, apologize, sweetness for short period, and then back to blow up signs. I've pointed this out to her. I don't know what else I can do.

    And it does not make me feel better that Nichole told me that boyfriend stabbed his older brother in the back with sewing shears when he was about 10-12 yrs old.:surprise: Brutal wound. This was not kids playing. So boyfriend is not the passivist he pretends to be. Cuz as bad a difficult child as Nichole may be, other than threats she's never actually physically harmed her sibs.

    Ok. I'm stopping now or I'll start rambling. Too many thoughts running thru my brain.
     
  2. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    Oh my! That's a lot of info and I can tell you are upset! I mean this with all the kindness in my heart, Daisy................ You are waaaaay toooo involved in their relationship. I think it would be best if you just stepped way back.

    It sounds like Nichole and boyfriend have a "sick" thing going on. It also sounds like neither Nichole nor the boyfriend are listening to or respecting the help and instructions you have given them.

    I would tell Nichole, enough already! If she is to live in your home, she will not be involved with boyfriend AT ALL. If she chooses to have a relationship with him (and it is really her choice) then she'll need to find other living arrangements. And then enforce it.

    You've told them to stop fighting. You waiver back and forth about whose fault it really is, it goes from your house to his house and then they call you and involve you regularly. WHEW! That's a mess I would not want to participate in. As long as you allow it, they will keep you in it. That poor little girl is getting the brunt of all of this and it borders on abusive towards the child keeping her in that environment. It's not healthy for anyone, least that innocent child that has no say whether to be involved or not.

    It sounds like they both need to mind their own business and then just agree to disagree. Trust me when I say I know what I speak of when I say this............... but neither of them have the maturity to be a parent. That poor child!

    Take a breather Daisy, relax your mind and then tomorrow, lay down the ground rules. (((hugs)))
     
  3. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I think that maybe it is time to take sides, Daisy. It seems obvious that he is using his brute strength against her and it is never ok. He can walk away and call the police if she's dangerous. He can throw her out if he disrespects his belongings. Grown men don't "restrain" their girlfriends. Where the heck did he come across a description like "restrain", anyway? That's rather clinical for a tu-rd.

    Calmly talk to her and tell her she doesn't have to take it again. Tell her it's wrong for Aubrey and it must stop. Calmly talk to him and tell him if he calls again to say he's restraining her, or if she shows up with a hair out of place, you'll call the police. They are obligated to take the report. Have literature prepared to give to her regarding protection for her and Aubrey.

    They may both deny it's happening, but she and Aubrey needs to know that it's not ok with you. Don't debate, but you can't stand idly by anymore, either.
     
  4. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I tend to agree with the above. My first H like to "restrain" me claiming I was out of control. BS! I was only out of control when he attempted to control me or abuse me and I didnt take kindly to being abused...lol.

    On the other hand, Cory is always much worse when he is in a difficult child type relationship. His babies momma is such a witch with a capital B that she liked to think up scams to get Cory to do that she knew he could get in trouble for. The checks? Her idea. Fake raffle tickets...her idea. The tv thing at walmart...her idea. Big thing is she never got caught and in trouble because Cory always took the heat. She actually got Cory caught going back to a store that he was banned from because she "just so wanted to go shopping there and surely they wouldnt remember him." Oh she knew what she was doing!

    She would egg him on telling him stuff just to see him go off. I am so glad he is over her now.
     
  5. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    First, I wouldn't bother telling boyfriend you'll call the police the next time he claims Nichole is out of control. I'd hang up on him and call them. Explain your daughter is being physically restrained and forcibly stopped from leaving his home. You know this because the boyfriend called to tell you. And then call the police each and every time he calls. It won't matter to the police who is the one being violent, at the least they have to make a report. Hopefully, they'll even go check it out.

    After that happens, then it is time to talk to Nichole and let her know that you are totally on her side. That you had tried to not take sides for the sake of her and Aubrey but this has gone on too long and seems to be escalating. Let her know all of your fears that boyfriend is in fact abusing her. Let her know you are there for her no matter what.

    I'm sorry Nichole is going through this. I think I would try to kill anyone who hurt my daughter and she knows this. I can't imagine what I would do if there were only suspicions and guesses but no real facts besides go quietly insane standing on the sidelines. I can only imagine your pain and frustration in all of this.

    From what you have said of Nichole in the past, I'd guess that she will be angry if you call the police but also happy to know you love her enough to take her anger.

    So, put that warrior armor on and go fight the good fight. May the best woman win and the manipulative jerk who thinks he's a man be taught you can't hurt the woman you love -- not emotionally, not physically!
     
  6. everywoman

    everywoman Active Member

    I agree with what everyone else said. You are Nicole's mother. boyfriend has one and it has always been obvious where her allegience lies. No man has a right to stop a woman from leaving "until she cleans up her mess." You have the right to call the police if you think she is being held against her will. If she destroys his property, he has the right to call the police. The first call, from whomever, should end this!
     
  7. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Last night Nichole didn't attempt to talk to boyfriend in any way. Evidently this morning he called to apologize. We're back in the "I'm so sorry" stage.:biting: Evidently nothing I said to Nichole last night stuck.

    Actually, I was telling husband I was ready to call the police when boyfriend pulled up with her outside. Next time, I'm just going to call them.

    It sounds sort of childish and mean but heck, last night I was also tempted to call his mother and work and give her an earfull of what's been going on just to see how HE likes it. But I didn't. Too childish of behavior for me I guess.

    I mean, what guy calls his girlfriends mother every time he gets into a fight with her to Tattle on her??

    I haven't had an opportunity to talk with Nichole this morning. She's wrapped up in the baby's routine. But I did see a text message from boyfriend which I clicked out of without responding to.

    Unfortunately my only leverage to get Nichole to stop seeing boyfriend altogether (her living here) would drive her straight to him. And that's the last thing I want to do. Or I'd use it.
     
  8. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Got interrupted.

    I stopped to try and talk with her a bit. Didn't do any good. She's being defensive and taking on the guilt.

    M23 it's not that I believe Nichole is guilt-free. She tolerates the behavior. And she doesn't walk away when boyfriend starts manipulating her into a reaction. I don't think she sees the manipulation at all.

    I'm so involved because Nichole lives here, and boyfriend keeps bringing me into it. 99 percent of the time I hang up on him. But I feel the need to answer the phone when he calls because I fear for Nichole and the baby. The rest is what I witness from the sidelines. And seeing what I do, I can only imagine what's going on otherwise.

    I also think the time has come for me to take sides. Although I don't like it. I want my kids to learn to handle their own relationships. But this one is way out of control. boyfriend was seriously off the deep end yesterday.

    I can no longer just sit by and watch this.

    I've come to some decisions this morning. While I can't control Nichole's decision when it comes to boyfriend, I can control what I will tolerate. And I've decided on zero tolderance.

    1. No transport to boyfriend's by any family member. I know even easy child will stand by this as she's as fed up as I am.

    2. boyfriend calls, or I see it happening here I call the police. No more playing around. No more leaving it up to them. Let the police sort it out. And this creates a paper trail for Nichole. If police feel Nichole is guilty and needs to go to jail then so be it, same for boyfriend.

    3. boyfriend is no longer allowed here. He can come pick up the baby for visitation. I will be nice and polite but he is not welcome in my home while treating my daughter like sh*t on his shoe.

    Does #3 sound unreasonable?

    That said......boyfriend just picked up her and the baby. sigh Aubrey didn't want to go at all. (gee I wouldn't either) I have a feeling I may be acting on # 2 today at some point.

    Thanks for the advice. I need it. If you have more keep it coming.

    Hugs
     
  9. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    I'm really beginning to get frustrated here! I just typed out a nice long reply, only to have it disappear! This isn't the first time, I wonder what in the world is causing that? Okay, I'll start again.

    If I sounded mean hearted in my earlier post, I'm sorry, not my intention at all. I notice that the other replies focused more on you protecting Nicole against abuse. If I was aware of my girls being abused, I would turn into a HUGE momma bear! The problem that I see here is that, you have already talked to both participants and they BOTH continue the same actions with you in the middle of it. That is why I was "harsher" in my response. Nicole willingly walks into that situation. She takes her child into that situation. She doesn't HAVE to go to boyfriend house and stay there, she chooses to. WHY? Yes, they have a child together and it's in the best interest of the child to see both of her parents. That doesn't mean that Nicole has to be there and set herself up to be mistreated.

    Nicole needs to learn some "big girl" lessons, yesterday. Not only for herself, but for her daughter. She's teaching her daughter life lessons right now through her actions. She's teaching her daughter to be a weak person, to purposely put herself in harms way and how not to respect herself. It would be one thing if Nicole was married to or living with boyfriend and had no other choice but to be there. In that instance I would fight tooth and nail to protect her. Nicole is not "stuck". She willing walks into that mess. I think you have talked and talked and talked to her, correct? That is why I suggested ultimatums.

    My favorite line in life is "you teach people how to treat you". It is so true! We each teach others just by our demeanors, if we can be spoken to a certain way, we teach by our reaction, if someone can repeatedly treat us badly, and we allow that, we teach them that we think so little of ourselves that we'll come back for MORE bad treatment. We must respect ourselves before anyone else will respect us. I teach these words to my daughters when the opportunity arises. I imagine I would teach my son's the same "truths" if I had son's as these are words for everyone to live by. I know you are upset and I am sorry for that.
     
  10. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Lisa, I think your new "rules" are perfect! They put the responsibility on the two of them to see each other and you protect your daughter from herself without flat out trying to stop them from seeing each other.

    You rock!!!!!
     
  11. WhymeMom?

    WhymeMom? No real answers to life..

    Hoping you have less frustration with your plan in mind.......hoping Nichole gets it before Aubrey pays the price.......
     
  12. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Thanks MB. I was trying not to go overboard and push her right into his arms while showing her I don't approve at all in the abusive treatment.

    M23 I don't think you were too harsh. And I do understand where you're coming from. It's hard to how to word advice based on info here because if I went into every little detail the post would turn into a book. And I try not to post too often on it because 1. I've been trying to detach from it and 2. I don't want to drive you all crazy with it too.

    And I do very much value your input.

    She willing walks into that mess.

    "you teach people how to treat you".

    I agree wholeheartedly with that. And I've been telling her this since the abusive behavior began in the relationship. And I've been stressing it more for the past year or more.

    But I know Nichole. I see the relationship every day. boyfriend has a major hold on her. He's got her convinced it's all her fault, if she'd just change it would be hunky dory. One minute he's telling her they can't live together because of her behavior, the next he is making plans to move in together. One minute he wants to go to psychiatrist, next there is nothing wrong with her, the next she's a homicidal maniac. He flip flops all over the place. Heck, I can't keep up with him, let alone Nichole. And I'm working on getting her to see there is just no pleasing the boy. He wants her to get a job but sabotages it by refusing to watch Aubrey and a half dozen other ways. He wants her to get her license, then refuses to take her to get it. (I'm working on getting family to do this for her) He told her he'd finance for a cheap car so she could use her money for school, then backed out once he'd convinced her to pay for it telling her he'd give her the money back. So she was stuck with a car she couldn't drive and no money for school. Which was why she needed the car in the first place.

    No she doesn't have to take it. I just have to convince her of that. And in the meantime not manage to push her further toward dependence on him.

    Does that make sense?

    Nichole is terrified of adult responsibility and of raising Aubrey alone. I'm trying to help Nichole take steps to show her she can do it and help her do it, while boyfriend somehow manages to keep blowing it out of the water. If I get her convinced becoming independent is a good idea before moving in with boyfriend, he comes along and starts talking marriage and moving in with her again.

    Head games. God! I hate that sort of thing.

    Ack!
     
  13. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    I think this can be resolved rather simply -

    The next time he calls you and tells you he "restrained" her - tell him you are calling the police, hang up and do it.

    First of all - men do not "restrain" their s/o's. Where is his certificate? How long has he been "restraining" her? He's abusive period. The yelling, the screaming, the restraining, the bruises - it's all a recipe for TOXIC relationships. Google Toxic relationships - see if there isnt' something out there that can help you.

    I personally would call a domestic violence shelter and ask them to send me ANY and ALL literature. I have some - somewhere - but have packed it up and can't find it - and need to send it to someone else I know.

    Whatever you do - explain to Nicole it's not a matter of "fault" per se - it's a matter of having and maintaining a relationship that is healthy. If she is unable to be around him - and he is unable to be around her - then get Aubrey a guardian ad litem or you serve as such and when he wants to see his daughter - someone else takes her.

    This cycle is vicious - and the honeymoon periods seem to (in an abusive/abused relationship make the other stuff okay or acceptable. We know it's not. And she's just as toxic as him so like I said - no reason to blame either - but to continue this and stick YOU in the middle? That's just nuts.

    Like I said - You get another call - TELL HIM - OKAY MR. D - I'm calling the police right now...then hang up. And CALL THEM. DO NOT EVER threaten that - and not follow through.

    If they both get arrested? Maybe a judge will tell them they have to stay away from each other and how immature and normal this type of behavior is becoming to Aubrey. Either Nicole loves Aubrey and wants her to NOT behave in a relationship like her Mother or she wants her to continue to seek out abusive men like her father. The time is NOW to get all this behind her and start thinking of that baby - I know, and I STILL have a difficult child.

    Hugs
    Star
     
  14. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    My ex used to 'restrain' me, but pinning me down on the floor with one arm under my legs and laying across me with his body. Every once in a while, he'd get a hand free to slam my head against the floor or to backhand me.

    Major flashbacks here, Lisa. When you said this started because she woke him up....OMG. Same thing I went through. My ex would also on occasion call my mom at times like that. He was usually at my house so there wasn't too much of him not letting me leave, but he wouldn't leave. If my parents were home, he'd sit in his car in the driveway. If they weren't and this started and I wanted him to leave, he would not leave.

    He also liked to tell everyone that he was defending himself from me. What a jackass.

    Stick to your guns.

    (((hugs)))
     
  15. janebrain

    janebrain New Member

    Hi Lisa,
    just wanted to say a couple of things. First, I think your new plan is a very good one and number 3 on the list is just fine, leave it in! Second, I wanted to say that I have had many talks with my difficult child 1 where she really seemed to "get it" or I would feel we had such a great heart-to-heart talk, etc. Well, I think the emotions she expressed were real but she was lieing to me in some of the talks or she would seem to make a good decision only to find out later she had done none of what she had spoken about. I've been worried each time you've had one of these talks with Nichole because I could see you getting your hopes up and I was pretty sure her behavior was not going to change. I am really glad you are going to take the steps you plan to take--I think those are what might cause a change--I think you can talk yourself blue in the face and Nichole will do nothing different and you will be disappointed once again. Keep us updated, I am proud of you and your new plans!
    Jane
     
  16. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I had the chance to ruminate on this, and two things occur to me.

    1) It's kidnapping to hold someone against their will.

    2) He's brainwashing her and Aubrey into thinking they deserve this.

    I like your ideas for action. Call the police next time.
     
  17. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    Wow, I feel sick.
    I agree with everyone. "Restraining mates" is classified as abuse. That is why we have police, and do not advocate citizens intervening in volatile situations.

    I think you need to take a step back, and become more objective. It is hard to do what you are doing, and set the limits, when you are too close. Bottom line, detach, and think about this as if you were reading it as a story in the paper, then how would you handle it? I think you already have the outline of how to handle this - but implementing the plan might be hard since you are so close to all of this. Keep focused, and strong.

    The biggest thing that kept popping into my mind when I read your post is the baby. What about Aubrey?
    I think I would pull out the grandma trump card, and say, if the baby is witness to anymore of your idiotic drama I am calling CPS.

    If Nichole and boyfriend want to be dysfunctional doormats for each other, so be it - but the baby has a right to grow up in a happy, harmonic, healthy home.

    Many, many hugs. This must be SO hard. Major strength being sent your way.
     
  18. Andy

    Andy Active Member

    Start a journal - go back as far as you can and write this story. Purchase a calendar and start marking dates. Color code -

    Red = blow up date (write in journal the details)
    Blue = cooling off period (write in journal how Nichole spent the time)
    Green = boyfriend makes Nichole believe they are o.k. again.(write in journal what boyfriend says to get Nichole to return to him)

    When you get a chance show this to Nicole. There will be a pattern.

    Mostly though, this will be helpful when Nichole wakes up to the dangers she is facing and needs to get a retaining order against boyfriend. (make sure she includes the baby if she does this)

    What a very abusive person - encouraging independence but making sure it can not happen. He doesn't want to call police because he knows he will be in trouble. Calling you is trying to convince you of his story before you hear Nichole's (Very childish).

    Your plans sound doable. His next step will be to use the baby as a pawn so watch for that.
     
  19. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Thanks guys.

    Star when I call the police I won't forewarn him because he'll have it all nicey nice before they get there or have a chance to make Nichole out the bad guy. I want them to actually see what is going on during these blow ups. This is awful but if it's a domestic volence call around here the cops don't move very fast.:dissapointed:

    So, I'll just make the call and let the chips fall where they may.

    I'm going to print out materials on abuse for Nichole and start leaving them around. Now that he's back into the "Green" phase as Adrianne put it, Nichole is as receptive as a brick wall.

    Steely, I've thought about CPS but our cwers here are a joke at best. been there done that with Kayla and Alex and got nowhere fast. boyfriend's name alone would be enough to keep them from acting. (small town politics) I may be forced to play that trump card eventually but I'm hesitant to at this point.

    Adrianne, odd you should mention a journal because I was thinking the same thing today while at school.

    Today evidently everything was all sweetness and light. (smack me please) Tomorrow, who knows? boyfriend had agreed to watch Aubrey while I take my girls out for our Mom's dinner for Mother's Day. Usually this is something that will set him off again.

    I gave Nichole the rules. She didn't like it, but didn't fight me on it.

    Now I'm off to bed to hopefully catch a few hours sleep. I've an early morning tomorrow. And a midterm I haven't had enough time to study for.

    Hugs
     
  20. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    How selfish of them to keep you from bettering your life.
     
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