Just a bunch of questions this morning....paternity and child support

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by DammitJanet, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    What do you think about a woman (in this case the mother and father were married) who knew that there was a 50/50 chance that the child she was carrying was not her husbands? The woman even went so far as warning the husband that the baby would probably be dark with curly hair because that ran on her side of the family. Of course, the husband believed the baby was his because he had no inkling his wife had been having an affair.

    Later on, when they had divorced and he remarried his new wife looked at the girls pictures as she was growing up and she told the father that she didnt think the little girl was his. The child was about 9 at the time. He got a DNA test and it proved he wasnt however because they were married and he was on the BC, he is being forced to pay child support.

    Personally I think this is awful. A mother who deliberately tells a father that he is the father and then later it is proved he isnt, should be convicted of fraud. Especially if she well knew the child could possibly not be the father. This hits home with me because ... well you know. Actually even the mouse doesnt look like her father. There are only two things that make her look like my family. She has completely straight hair and it looks just like her uncle's did when he was little and she has what we call a horned toenail that runs in our family on both sides. Guess who doesnt have that toe? But that child looks a lot like her father at her age. They both have the same chin and she has my eyes. People used to think - and still do - that she is hubby and my child. His hair and my eyes. This is such a hot topic.

    I have known other cases like this too and when I worked for social services I charged several women for getting welfare after naming someone else. That seems confusing when the courts say a man has to be the father if he has acknowledged the child. It seems that now a father should have a DNA test even when they are married these days.
  2. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Well... I am of multiple minds on this.

    I don't think a man should be lied to about his kid. That said... Did he love his child? If he did... Then she was his daughter... And he owed her support. The mother, on the other hand should be charged with fraud.

    But for that little girl to suddenly lose the only father she has ever known?!

    FWIW - Rose has husband's dimples, but my eye shape and cheeks... My cowlick and ears but his long torso... Yeah. And her eye COLOR? Is different. It is the same as mother in law and my Dad's though...
  3. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Yeah I dont think the "assumed father" should lose contact either. I also think the mother should face some kind of punishment which to me would be her going after the biological father and he should have to be responsible for the child support. I dont think a man should be financially responsible if he has been tricked or lied too. There are actual women who get pregnant by a man through trickery. They will tell the man they are on BC or even put a hole in the condom. I have even heard of at least one woman who saved the condom and used that to get pregnant. Then they go after a man who thought he was being responsible to not have a baby.

    The only person who actually knows what she is doing is the woman. They hold all the power.

    I actually ended up pregnant within the first month I knew Hubby and I would have had to tell him the child might not be his because I had been sexually active in the month before I met him. I dont know what would have happened because I lost that baby in September. (I met hubby mid July and immediately moved in with him the same day) I miscarried somewhere around 9/20. Yeah I know, I was a huge difficult child back then however we are those one in a million people who managed to stay together for 30 years now. That is something that is so rare and probably would never have happened if we didnt have the boys. They certainly kept us together through some tuff times. Our motto back then was whoever left had to take the boys...lol. Neither of us were willing to go it alone. I dont think either of us could have done it without each other.
  4. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    I saw a show on this once. The father and mother were divorced. The father loved his 9 year old child and saw him every weekend. He had gotten a new girlfriend who was a nurse. She said to him there would be no way the child was his because he has blue eyes and both parents didn't. Unbeknownst to the mother, a paternity test was done and he was not the father. So he told the child that he was not going to see him again because he was not his father. The child said , "who is my father?" and the man told him to ask his mother. He was in the process of battling the courts, this show was a long time ago, but he had to pay child support anyway. He didn't want to ever see the child and he did not. He said it was because it hurt too much and why should he continue to pay. Of course, no matter what anyone thinks, he went about telling the child this info the wrong way. He still had to pay. There were people on this show from some org. about father's rights or something, this is more common that we may think. Maybe you can look for something like this on the internet. I don't think he should have to pay a dime once he's proven to not be the bio dad, but what do I know?
  5. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    You probably don't want to get me started on this subject. lol

    Younger bro, while a class A jerk often enough, will NOT abandon a child under any circumstances. While this is an admirable trait, it has also come back to bite him in the rear so many times it isn't funny.

    First wife, married at 18.....knocked her up prior (supposedly, he actually chose the wrong sister shotgun wedding). No doubt baby was actually his bff's child NOT his. Looked nothing like him and was a female clone of his best friend. His bff chose the sister, and his son is a clone of my bro. omg Anyway......she has 2nd baby immediately after, this one at least LOOKS similar to bro......except she was sleeping with anyone she could drag into the house so it's anyone's guess if the child is actually his or not. Because he was married to her with first daughter was born, he was forced to pay child support even though it was proven she was not his bio child. Any child born within a marriage the state regards as the fathers bio child, regardless and expects them to take responsibility. (at least in Illinois at that time) Second wife was worse. None of his children by this woman are his. NONE. No doubt. He wasn't even in the state for 3 mos when she got knocked up with the youngest. omg. State could care less. He paid child support on all of them.......is currently raising the youngest.

    This, however, ticks me off. I understand in most cases this is the only father the child has known.........but dammit fair is fair. If a biodad has to take responsibility for a child born outside of wedlock, then a husband should NOT have to take responsibility for his wife's infidelity. Although I do think if him and the children are close the relationship should be maintained. Not fair to him or the kids on that score.

    Honestly though? State / govt could care less who is responsible for who as long as they aren't footing the bill for any given child. Fair doesn't matter. This is the ONLY reason we have child support laws.

    And sorry, I think it's wrong. Don't care if I get blasted or not.

    Katie's biomom could have worked for years and years with no issue. She had a built in sitter with her dad, and I know had several other options for free sitters. No excuse. Yet she collected child support and welfare (at that time both a check and food stamps plus insurance although we always had Katie covered) until they literally threw her off when Mo changed their laws.

    Now I never minded paying child support. And I was the one who saw to it that it was always paid. But when Mo decided we also had to pay for biomom's sheer laziness.......that is when I became furious. We were forced to pay back every single dime she ever got from welfare..........TWICE. Granted ohio forced them to refund the second set of nearly 40k but still. omg

    I'm all for Dad's taking responsibility, but by darn a woman has got to take it as well. She also had those children......it wasn't a one sided deal.

    My mom raised 5 kids on min wage with not a dime in child support ever paid. (my dad sat in prison for a year for refusal to pay because mom refused to comply with visitation) It wasn't easy by a long shot. But she did it and we respect her for stepping up to the plate. Needless to say there is little to no respect at all for biodad who totally dropped the ball. My grandmother raised 7 without welfare or childsupport.........the entire family respects the hades out of her and has zero for maternal grandfather, nor did they have a relationship with him. phht

    The way child support is set up......a woman can play a male for a big fat check each month (if he has a decent job) just by getting preggers with his child. I have seen waaaaaay too many women where this is their only form of income, and they are quite content with it. state/govt doesn't care because they're not footing the bills.

    I realize dad's need to take responsibility for their kids, I truly do. But women need to as well........and need to be forced to when the males don't step up to do so. You want equality, there it is.

    But getting govt involved only gave parents who would support their children regardless and major PITA to deal with........and has not done much to correct parents who just walk away from a relationship and really don't give a darn.

    The system, as do most govt systems, needs redone severely.
  6. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    If a man has invested emotional support in a child... then that man needs to continue to provide that, bio child or not. It is NOT the child's fault!
    If a man is the bio dad, then he should be paying... whether he invests anything else or not.
    If he is both... then whether the relationship ends or not, he is responsible for both.
    If he is either, then when the relationship ends, he continues to be responsible for "his part".

    If a man doesn't want to be financially and emotionally responsible for raising a kid then... don't have sex. A woman cannot force herself on a man (unlike the other way around). Lies, trickery, treachery, whatever else, yes.

    The men I feel most sorry for are those whose spouse was unfaithful. It isn't their fault that the biology of the child is what it is. But it isn't the child's fault either.

    And of course, the "system" doesn't work that way.
  7. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    I can't argue with that, Lisa!

    No, men should not be forced to pay support for a child that isn't theirs... on the other hand, the child should be supported. And in my opinion child support isn't just financial. Belle & Pat's biomom used to complain to the kids that husband never paid his support... When he was. Turned out she wasn't getting checks because she was on welfare, medicaid, food stamps, the whole 9 yards. Then when the tables turned and she was paying support, she changed jobs and told husband it wasn't her responsibility to make sure it got paid. It took 6 months for her employer to start taking it out of her check. And CSEA? When they were provided with her new place of employment, couldn't find her! Refused to try. But you can be sure they were breathing down husband's neck when the judge increased support and backdated the increase 6 months.

    And, yeah, a lot of women DO use men to get pregnant and then get money. I never understood that... If I had Meggie and no Daddy in the picture, I'd just do my best to make sure she was well cared for. Period. Rather have her than all the money in the world.
  8. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    At least Im not completely alone. Actually a woman can force herself on a man. There is rape by women on men. It actually exists. Do remember that if someone is intoxicated then they cant give informed consent. Or the woman could have oral sex and save the proceeds. What man...heck what person...is going to think they can get someone pregnant by only having oral sex???

    Women hold the power to decide if the baby is born even if the father wants it. Now I cant say I disagree with that one but we dont give the father the same rights to decision making. I think if a woman gets pregnant by somehow tricking the man then she should be held completely responsible.

    As far as a woman on welfare, well, I cant tell you how many women I had in my caseload who got pregnant by "Joey" who just happened to have sex with women in the backseat of any number of cars. Literally...they claimed to only know a nickname of some guy and they all had sex in the backseat of a car and then they never saw the guy again. Absolutely no way to find a real father. Thats why in 96 they did a major change to welfare but it has been changed basically back to the way it was. For as long as I worked at DSS and I know it was still the same in 2006, a person could only be on TANF for 2 years at one stretch and 5 years lifetime. Now there were exceptions such as grandparents raising grandchildren. Oh and they made it so that once a person went on welfare (the check portion) then they could only get it for the number of kids they came in with plus one more pregnancy. No more of the keep having babies to increase the check each month. Thats all changed I think. I know back in 2006, a single person over the age of 21 who had no kids and wasnt disabled was only eligible to get 3 months of food stamps in a year...or it may have been 3 years. I cant remember. Now anyone can just sign up and get them for as long as they want.
  9. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Sad part about that "unknown" father..........is that many of them weren't lying. They had no clue.

    And I don't know what reality exists that a woman can't force herself onto a man. Men, sorry to say, are fairly weak minded and tend to think with their crotch when it comes to seduction. (same with some women to be fair) Those that can turn down open season are extremely few, like maybe 1 percent. And the women doing this sort of thing will swear to all that is holy they're using birth control......and pop up preggers. Because it was deliberate.

    In all fairness?? Men have NO WAY to know if a woman is using BC or not. So placing the bulk of responsibility onto their shoulders or stating they should not have sex is a sexist remark. Would you say the same for the woman? Where is HER responsibility.

    We talk a good talk of equal for all but we don't like it when it comes down to actually doing it.

    Women control what they do with a fetus before birth. Um? Sorry, then she should also support the child she CHOSE to have, HER decision, not HIS. He gets NO say so in the matter.

    How is that equal? If she doesn't want the child for any reason she can abort. He doesn't have that option AT ALL.

    Sorry. That just doesn't fly with me.

    Women need to stop *itching about equality when they can't step up to the plate and take on their own responsibility. You go out and have causal sex you know the odds of getting preggers BC or not. (and yes people DO get preggers using all forms of BC......welcome to everyone of my pregnancies) Only females decide whether or not to give birth to that child. Dad has NO say so in the matter, he just gets to foot the bill regardless of whether or not he was ready (long list of reasons) to be a parent or not.

    The system is set up against males and they simply cannot win. Not the way it stands now. It's not right and it peeves me off to no end.

    Those that will take responsibility for their children will do so without being forced. Those that won't you probably would be better off not having them involved with the child in the first place.

    Sorry. I'm in the mood to be blunt today.
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Life isn't fair and DNA is not the only way one becomes a father. But, for the sake of eliminating an argument, women are favored when it comes to children. My son is trying to get custody of his son and it's hard. The courts favor the women, even when they say they don't. Having said that, I can think of ten-to-one ways men are favored over women. After all, THEY run the world. Of course the world is running by their rules. There are few female leaders and voting polls show that men and women think very differently about issues. Hey, in Wisconsin Walker the Wonderman is trying to find ways to ban abortion and he's doing a good job of it. Yet women will re-elect him or help re-elect him (shrug). What IS fair anyway?

    This man treated this child as his daughter all these years. I assume there is visitation. In every way but DNA he IS the father. It's kind of lame that he couldn't see for nine years that the child didn't look like him. He could have gone for a DNA test at any time. My guess is that new wifey doesn't like to share his money, even though she is a daughter to him in every way but DNA.

    People lie. Men, woman, children, people of all races and ethnicities, etc. It doesn't matter. If we punished them all, say, a jail sentence, we'd need ten jails in even the smallest town. This story is not new. Nor are men who keep children hidden with their mistress and don't tell the woman about it.

    Took me almost forty years to accept that life isn't fair, but I have that down pat now :) I personally blame men 50% for every child born. If the man opens his zipper to a liar, it's his problem if she gets pregnant and lies. I don't like my son's ex. She is vile. I didn't want them to have a kid and when he complains about how underhanded she is being during this custody battle I tell him he picked her...what does he expect? He knew what she was like.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  11. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    Lisa, my husband has exactly the same argument.

    As much as he loves every one of his children... difficult child was pretty clearly one of those deliberate ensnarement kids.
    Lasted edited by : Aug 21, 2013
  12. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    My oldests grandparents flat told me and my parents that oldest was my problem even though his father and I did get married and the baby was named after the father. He is a fifth in the line of those men. And just for fun and fact, oldests grandfather was a part of the group that invented Mobile 1 synthetic oil! Yet these people, who actually sent me a copy of the front page of their local paper when their new business made its first Million dollars, fully contributed to hiding their son from child support. They paid him under the table to avoid it. Oh well...their loss.

    Oh and his paternal grandparents never sent birthday presents or cards, Xmas presents, nothing. We didnt hear from them until he was 9 years old and they wanted to see him again. Then I let him go down to see them for a week but I told them that if I called I better be able to reach them and if he wasnt home on time I would file kidnapping charges. They saw him that one time and then we never heard from them again until he was an adult.
  13. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    As some of you may remember, this is personal issue for me.

    Our laws about matter are simple. If married, husband is the father unless he denies it in reasonable time after child's birth (about four years) and shortly (at tops half a year) after he has found out he may not be biological father. Also if doubt and husband still claims a child as his own in writing, then so it is. Biological father has no rights, if his child is born to married woman (the last part is one of main themes of our father's right organizations.)

    I had an one-night-stand during the time we were trying to get pregnant with husband. I still don't get it. The most foolish, gfgish, stupidest, self-destructive thing I have ever done. And I didn't even take morning-after pill though I got one. When I noticed I was pregnant, I considered abortion, but couldn't. I also considered telling my husband but I was in denial of the possibility of husband not being a father. And I did knew he would leave me, if I would tell. I didn't want to loose him. When difficult child was born, I couldn't be sure, though I did know somehow . There is no tell-tale signs. husband is 6 feet tall, strong built guy with blond hair and greyish/light blueish eyes. The other guy is closer to 6,5 feet, strong built guy with blond hair and greyish/light blueish eyes. difficult child is tall, lanky boy with blond hair and greyish eyes, that are just like mine. difficult child does not look much like either of these men, never has, though he does have lots of husband's mannerism.

    But he does have that other guy's hands, had already as a baby. And I did know even though I tried to deny it, not think about it, forget it. I very well knew I was doing a wrong thing and was hurting my husband. It was incredibly low of me not to tell husband. That is something I'm extremely sorry about.

    But difficult child started to scream, when he was a day old. And he didn't stop. I just couldn't imagine surviving on my own and did what was the best for my baby and didn't tell. husband did find out when difficult child was little over half year old and in hospital, critically ill. Child of ours could not have a blood type difficult child has. husband left us to hospital and few days later demanded a chance to see difficult child without having to see me. It was extremely chaotic month all the way around, but of course our baby being very ill made it all the more confusing. In the end husband came back with few stipulations. The other guy will never know, unless difficult child tells. We will tell difficult child but other than that, difficult child is his and topic is not discussed. Well, of course he had told his mother, so beans were permanently spilled when it comes to our extended family, but we can live with that, mostly.

    At that point I had also understood, that I could make it on my own and that I and difficult child were not depending husband, so I did have few stipulations of him coming back too. That may not have been fair, but I was not going to live in situation there this would be used against me in every turn. Neither was my child going to live in the situation, there he wouldn't be equal to others. First thing worked well for me, second could have been better, but I think it has been more about other things than where difficult child got half of his genes. My granddad also demanded husband to write an letter there he claims difficult child even though 'he knew, that there is a possibility that he is not a father.' No going back and forth.

    We have discussed about these things with husband during marital counselling last spring. husband says that he did come back mostly for difficult child. He did love me still, but was very angry and could had moved on. But understanding that if he denies his paternity on difficult child he would not have any rights on him either. And that if he left me, also I could contest the paternity and take away those rights. And leaving his baby behind and loosing him was not an option.

    I'm extremely sorry for the hurt I caused to my husband and I can't explain even to myself why I chose to do as I did, but I can't say I regret a thing. Not really. I can't regret a fling, that gave me my difficult child. Neither can I really regret the lies and deception that lead husband to fall in love with our little boy and kept our family together. After all, without that, I would not have easy child. I simply can't regret anything that lead to those two boys living on this earth. I'm not proud of myself, but it is, what it is.

    Now, if difficult child ever decides he wants to meet his biological father... Well, I hope he doesn't, because that would be a mess. Hopefully mess we could still survive, though.
  14. helpangel

    helpangel Active Member

    My X boyfriend always knew the youngest wasn't his; they were splitting up wife dropped off 2 babies for the weekend he doesn't hear of her until over a year later some hospital in another state looking for her next of kin, he went and got her (6 months pregnant) brought her home, got her off drugs then divorced her.

    His big complaint wasn't being financially responsible for the one his wife had who wasn't his, it was they made him pay her child support for the year and a half she was off doing drugs and he had the kids for the longest weekend in history. It gets better the IRS said since he wasn't custodial parent to the 2 boys he couldn't use their tax deductions or deduct the daycare costs he paid out.

    He was upset when his idiot X sprang it on the kid at age 13 his dad wasn't his dad. He explained to the kid that though he didn't provide DNA that created him he became his dad when he kept his mom alive then rocked him while he was screaming with withdrawals and not to listen to his idiot brothers they were accidents because he didn't use a condom but he was his son by choice. He loves them all the same but he chose him.

    Oh did you all think I could end with warm and fuzzy's about men?
    I want to ask a ? regarding a different man - my kids X dad owes over $50,000 I haven't seen a penny in over 10 years - but the medicaid support he owes has gone down by around $8000 (still owes medicaid $4000, me $49,000+)

    My ? is after medicaid gets paid off and both these kids are over 18yo who gets the support me or the girls?
    If it's me I better check out the stalking laws in whatever state he's in LOL
  15. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    As I said... if a man doesn't want to live with the consequences... don't have sex. That means ALL forms of such activity. And yes, it means don't ever get stinking drunk either, or you won't be in control of what happens.
  16. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Hmmmm... Did both parents have to sign the BC? I know that we're talking about young and probably naive people here. But child support and visitation and all that are legal matters, and signing the BC is in essence saying that you take legal responsibility.

    My personal opinion is that "fake daddy" should sue mommy - and if he can find him "real daddy", too - to recover every penny. on the other hand, he and his family have no claim to visitation at that point.
  17. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Suzir and IC, I'm right there with you. Suzir, you made a mistake, but your husband considers your child his child too. You have both been very mature in a siutation that destroys many relationships. I commend you both.

    It is idiotic to claim that only a DNA is your child. If so, then X off every stepchild anyone has that he/she thinks of as his or hers. Not your DNA. X off adoption...it can't happen. Not your DNA. Not your responsibility. I think that's baloney. Who you love is your child. If the child loves and depends on you that is your child. And some sperm donor who never paid a cent toward his DNA, and has no interest in raising him/her is not really a father...he is a sperm donor.

    And, IC, I 100% agree with you. I 110 % agree with you :) If a man doesn't want to risk being a father, knowing that any woman can cheat (this is a plain fact that we all understand), then may he keep his zipper shut and not have sex. I don't buy that men are weakminded. They know exactly what they are doing. Some just don't think in advance, the same as how some women don't. And some man up when they have to and some women mature when they have to. Men know they can not reproduce. They should be more careful when they have affairs or choose wives. Ditto for the women. Many a woman has been raped in marriage and raises that child with love anyway. It is next to impossible to prove your husband actually raped you. Sorry, not just men get mistreated.
  18. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Saw this on "Ray Donovan" this weekend.
  19. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Believe me I am not talking about personal issues but this issue as a topic of discussion.

    I dont see how anyone can say a man cant be raped by a woman. Drug him, tied him to the bed and do what is needed. There are many ways a woman can get pregnant if she wants to even if she doesnt want the father around except maybe later if she needs money. Or think about what if an older girl had sex with an underaged boy and a baby was conceived. The younger boy has no way of giving consent and the older girl should be held liable. Why should a young boy be saddled with a responsibility he had no right to consent to? This is happening more and more with some older women having sex with young boys. Think about that teacher years ago who fell in love with that 13 or 14 year old boy and had a baby with him. I know she went to jail and I think after that boy grew up he actually has custody of the child but I dont think that should have been forced on him if he didnt want it.

    Or what about a developmentally disabled person who has no concept of what the consequences of having sex means? A woman could take advantage of such a person. Or she could convince him that he was the father for years when its really not.
  20. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Janet, if it's the same teacher I'm thinking of, she married that boy after she got out of jail. Yuck...