2 questions

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by klmno, Mar 1, 2009.

  1. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Hi, all! I wanted to get some opinions on a couple of ddifferent things.

    1) If there was reason to believe that you, as a parent, caused your difficult child to be a difficult child or that you were doing something major to contribute to the difficult child's problems, do you think out of 3 child& adolescent psychiatrists, neuropsychologist test results/report, numerous tdocs and psychiatric hospital stays with- sw's, that these profs would tell you, as the parent, more than the difficult child's diagnosis, recommended treatment plan and that individual therapy for the difficult child and family therapy might help?

    Obviously, if they thought you were abusing the child or really causing danger for the child, they would have to report that to dss or police. If that has never been done and they've just included family therapy in recommendations at times, or support for the parent, would it be feasible that if they thought the parent had a psychiatric problem or personality disorder that they would tell the difficult child's gal, but not anyone else and never mention that at all to the parent? If they (the mental health profs for the difficult child) thought the parent needed psychiatric treatment and without it they might be causing more difficulty for the difficult child, would it be safe to assume that they would mention it to the parent, even if they mentioned it to the gal, too?

    2) If in your own immediate and extended family the custom was that adults don't kiss other adult family members on the lips unless they are married and the only ones who kiss kids on the lips are immediate family members of very young children, then that even stops as the child approaches adolescence, would it bother you a lot to see an extended family member kiss a 11yo on the lips, especially if the 11yo is of the gender that is the sexual preference of the adult and when that adult was a teen, they tried to force molestation on a younger kid? If it would bother you, how much off a red flag would it throw up to you?
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  2. ML

    ML Guest

    I don't have answers my friend. I just feel bad that you are in so much pain. You are a very intelligent, insightful person who has done extensive research. The problem is that the system is broken and there is not logic, the situation too complex to really get. This thing is like a rubics cube and the more you try to figure it out the more it elusive it becomes.

    I just ask you to take care of yourself right now. Try hard not to go down the path of what if's even though I know it's not easy. All of this insanity is taking its toll. It's amazing to me that you're still standing.

    One thing I *do* know. This ISN'T YOUR FAULT, ISN'T YOUR FAULT. You are a loving mother, a warrior mother. You have done the very best you could despite great adversity and little support. Don't let anyone make you feel differently. It must be incredibly difficult having every parenting decision you have ever made questionned. That makes me so mad on your behalf.

    I guess I just want to add to slow down. Make sure you take your medications/vitamins, that you eat/sleep and that you are kind to yourself. Don't let negative thoughts take over.

    I have to go, I have more to say but manster found the chips.. Love and hugs, ML
  3. KTMom91

    KTMom91 Well-Known Member

    This has to be wearing on you, and I know you've been trying so hard to give him the best life possible. I don't have a magic answer, but I will give you my opinions.

    Answer to 1) Since I'm a mandated reporter, I would expect that a doctor/therapist, who is also a mandated reporter, would either tell me or report me if they truly believed I was causing my child's illness. I would hope they would pass whatever info along that would help my child get the care she needed, but that might depend on how the system looked at my child's right to privacy.

    Answer to 2) That scenario would bother me a great deal, especially with the older person having a history of molestation. I would wonder if my child was next on the list.

    Have you managed to get some rest? Watched a good movie? Eaten a decent meal? Had a nice hot bubble bath? Please take care of you. Many, many hugs.
  4. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I am echoing what ML said, "This is not your fault!" I hate that you are questioning yourself. You have been such a strong advocate for your son and are an incredible warrior mom.

    Also, I agree with ML about taking care of you right now. It is sooo important.

    As for the second question, yes I think it would bother me if I knew the background of molestation.
  5. tiredmommy

    tiredmommy Site Moderator

    1) I would think that it would be very unprofessional for a psychiatrist that works with the child to hazard to guess what (if any) diagnosis the parent may have without a proper evaluation or access to the parent's medical history. In addition, that psychiatrist needs to have the permission of the parent to share that diagnosis because it is a violation of hippa laws. A parent with a mental health diagnosis doesn't necessarily equate with being a danger to the child, it's not so much the diagnosis but the behavior of the parent that comes into question with mandatory reporting.

    2) I would make sure the parent of the younger child saw that adult was potentially crossing the line and the situation should be monitored to keep the child safe.
  6. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Thank you all! I lost power there for a bit so I'm back on now. Shewww....board withdrawal!!

    To clarify- the 1) situation didn't warrant a "mandated report" and no report like that was made. I'm just thinking this might be another way I can explain why I wasn't comfortable taking that psychiatric evaluation- which I do have to explain. I have several reasons already that I need to sort thru, but I thought one might be that difficult child's current treatment team, nor any other mental health professional involved has never suggested that I might have any psychiatric diagnosis (other than depression/anxiety) or personality disorder or that I caused difficult child's diagnosis. They have suggested typical family therapy and support, as is typical, but NOT ONE has ever even mentioned to me or in any writing that I have seen that maybe I should be evaluation'd/tested. I want to make sure that isn't countered with gal saying that they told her that. I doubt they did- she never said they did- and I can't imagine that they would without at least telling me. Mainly because if it was a situation where they need to report something, it wouldn't be reported to a gal and no one else. If it required mandated reporting, it would mean that I was a danger and dss would already have been at my door.

    I want to put this across in court like- I concede that I have depression/anxiety issues at times, it runs in my family, and difficult child's current and previous mental health profs are aware of this. None of them have suggested that this is causing difficulties for difficult child or that I needed a psychiatric or personality disorder test. When I am feel that the depression/anxiety might be a problem, I seek out appropriate counsel.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  7. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    klmno, with a lot of compassion in saying this, it seems as though you are over analyzing and have huge anxiety over this evaluation. In my eyes, (not that I am the end all or be all) If I were a judge and court ordered an evaluation and that person refused to have it done, I would personally be MORE suspicious of that person. What are they trying to hide?

    I don't think you are meaning to do this, but from *my* view, it seems like you are fighting against EVERYONE and trying to control everything that happens to your son. The powers that be WILL see you as the enemy and I don't believe you will be heard because of that. I also don't mean this rudely at all, and of course I could be wrong, but it appears to me that your anxiety is causing you to run in 50 thousand directions to no avail.

    Your son is in the system and he needed to be. That doesn't mean that you are no longer his mother and that you shouldn't have some kind of input. But I do know that all of these caseworkers, po's, gal's, ect. and the judge have a job to do, and they will do it, and you will not be able to control them or control every aspect of your son's life right now.

    Also remember that I am the mother of a 24 yr. old difficult child and a grandmother to a 5 yr. old difficult child and guess what? I STILL have not figured out how to make them easy child's or even something in between! So, I'm right there with you and feel that I can say, what you were doing at home wasn't working. (I didn't manage that feat either)Yes, your son does need help and yes, what he did to you on numerous occasions was seriously wrong. He definitely needs to have a consequence. It won't be pleasant I'm sure and it will hurt you, but HE needs this. It's my opinion that he's been handled with kid gloves really for his violent acts against you and your home and his defiance against you. It's better that he learn that now than even one year later.

    As parents, we can't make everything okay for our children. Nor should we. You fought the good fight for your son and you should be proud of that. Now, you're going to have to chill, (did I really just say that) take care of your self, and go along with the program for the most part. If you are compliant for the most part, I would think that when you DID speak, you would be heard.

    Also as far as the psychiatric. evaluation? We have dragged our children from place to place, having them evaluated one way or another right? Isn't is only fair that we make ourselves available to what we expect of our children?

    You can take this or leave it whatever helps you most, it's only my opinion. I do hope you find some kind of peace soon.
  8. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    And for your other question........... In our family, we don't kiss anyone on the lips other than our spouses. I think it's gross that your brother would do this! I would make sure I was right there for the greeting to make sure it didn't happen. I would be very open and clear that kissing your son on the lips was unacceptable. I feel confident that you educated your son not to allow this to happen correct? This did only happen on one occasion right?
  9. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Mom-to-3: they are considering him home with no more in place except me having the evaluation and then a treatment plan based on that by the county. There are numerous reasons I have a problem with that- one of which is that I don't think it's enough consequence for difficult child. Another is that it sends the wrong message to him- not that I am above therapy- difficult child knows I've gone in the past and have gone recently. But I think it is wrong to send him the message that it's justified for him to whip a knife on anyone, whether they have their own issues or not- unless I was abusing or neglecting him. Another is that I would NEVER trust this county to do one written test (and that's all they were going to do), diagnosis me, and provide a treatment plan. EVER. I wasn't comfortable with them doing this for difficult child either- if their idea for his treatment plan had been carried out, difficult child would either be dead or in state juvy right now because all they planned on providing him was a behavior contract that is typically provided by a counselor assigned to Department of Juvenile Justice. That wasn't as a punishment for him to be in addition to his care for his diagnosis- that was in lieu of treatment for his diagnosis.

    I value your opinion, but I think you've read part of the situation and aren't familiar with all that has transpired through this. Not that I don't understand- I have written rambling posts about it all many times. LOL!! And I do get caught in parts of it a lot- still- when we go to court again, I will be asked to explain why I broke this court order. I do feel I have valid reasons. I am not going to argue the judge's authority to order it. I heard afterwards that the attny's had thought that i was not doing ANY therapy for myself. That simply is not true. I am thinking about asking difficult child's current psychiatrist if they'd do an evaluation/assessment though. I would trust and value that and I think they could help determine triggers that I might be unaware of, especially since I know they would be taking into consideration difficult child's diagnosis. What the county was planning was to give me one test without any "interview" or social hisory or anything else. Even on google searches, it says this test should NEVER be used like that. It's kind of like asking the sd to evaluation your child and them doing nothing but giving the child one test for adhd but not taking anything else into consideration, then writing an entire treatment plan and medications based on that and being court ordered to do it. The particular test they were going to do on me tested areas of a person's personality to see what does not fit into statistical norms. It is supposed to be inconjunction with other tests and assessment that takes into account hisotry, current situation, etc, but they weren't going to do all that, so it leaves it all up to inference. Then, I was told that I would get a diagnosis and treatment plan based on that. The reading I did about the test says that is DANGEROUS because if you score high on guilt, for instance, it could be because you are a rape victim who internalized things, or it could mean because you have committed a crime, or it could mean you are schizophrenic or something, but they have no idea without the other info. And, exactly how would determing what areas I don;t fit into statistical norms determine if I'm triggering difficult child?

    This test is very commonly used for assessing criminals to see where they should be placed when in Department of Juvenile Justice. Obviously, that isn't the situation here. And, it is used in custody cases where they give it to both parents and whichever one fits more in the norm is most likely to get custody- but it is not listed to be used alone to one person to form a treatment plan for that person. It has been used as part of job applications, but that is highly controversial.

    I don't think giving custody to my bro is acceptable either. yes, I did speak to difficult child about it afterwards. And, I think difficult child would understand it better now because I hug and kiss him on the cheek, but even I don't kiss him on the lips and haven't since he was maybe 6 or 7yo. What bothers me about it more is the way my bro looked at me after he did it. But, I cannot prove it in court. Unless difficult child remembers it and I haven't asked him to see if he does. Of course, difficult child doesn't know about the "family history" stuff and I have nothing to prove that- however- I did testify to it a year ago and it was after my bro dropped his custody case, so it holds more validity than just bringing it up now. Any contact between difficult child and my family has been monitored for several years- 6 or 7 maybe. The judge knows it. The judge knows about my previous therapy. But dss says if difficult child gets turned over to them by the judge, based on gal's recommendation, then dss HAS to send difficult child to my bro.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  10. Estherfromjerusalem

    Estherfromjerusalem Well-Known Member

    I personally don't think kissing on the lips is acceptable, not at any age, and not any relationship, no matter what the person's history. in my humble opinion that is only for partners, and not ANYONE else. I always kiss my children, even the oldest grown-up boy who is 39, but only on the cheek.

    Culture differences, I suppose. But having those boundaries helps to keep things clear and uncomplicated.

    I grew up in a family where I didn't get hugs or kisses, so it is important to me to give them to my children. But NEVER on the lips.

  11. house of cards

    house of cards New Member

    I'm sorry you are between such a rock and a hard place. I'm worried that refusing the evaluation will lose you the judges neutral position, but I see what you are saying. I also would be concerned about the lip kissing and the gloating, very conserned.

    I would certainly have a very straight talk about good/bad touch and make sure my difficult child had a cell phone and knew he could call 911 and/or you. I would probably ask him to keep the phone out of sight.
  12. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Esther- cultural background apparently does make a difference, but since you raised this point i have to ask, do others from the US think it's acceptable to kiss or receive a kiss on the lips from a very young child in the immediate family? I'm not talking about just happening out of the bllue, but like if you give a gift to a 4yo daughter/son and they run to you with open arms and start to kiss you- is that ok, or do most turn their head to make sure the kiss lands on the cheek?

    As far as my bro and difficult child, I tend to think if difficult child lived with him out of state that it would only do so much good to warn difficult child. At the teen years, it seems that manipulation and exposure could eventually convince a kid to "give in", no matter what their parent has told them. difficult child would be living in a house where men are kissing men and sleeping together and it would be acceptable in that house.

    I hope the judge doesn't decide to dismiss anything I have to say from this point on- I think she does have to hear my explanation of why I didn't take the test though, because it will be "show cause". Of course, that doesn't mean she will care about my reassons. But I just keep thinking of where it would lead if I did take it and that seemed much worse to me. If it was going to be a complete assessment, it would be different. But, I still think sending difficult child home with nothing changed except giving me an an order to go to treatment would be a drastic mistake and sending a horrible message to difficult child, even if I had faith in their diagnosis.
  13. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    klmno, honestly, I've never heard of kissing anyone on the lips except a partner/spouse. Everyone I know kisses their kids on the cheeks, even from a very young age.
  14. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    Occassionally a little one may get by with a brief lip kiss, but we're talking 18 months and almost accidental.

    Beyond that, cheeks. Or that's the way we were brought up.

    As for the test...if you have been as forthright with the pro's working with difficult child as you have here, you're said you will do anything to help him. I know in my relationship with my difficult child's counselor, I have told her about his uncle, and have said "if sending him there to live would help him, I would bend over backwards to do it" and I think she would tell me if she thought that would solve his problems. She has not. I would assume you've had relationships with your difficult child's counselors that were similar, yet no one told you another place to live would be better, so I can't see that.

    I see Mom to 3's point - refusing to take the test looking bad. However, I see your point loud and clear, too. Do you still have a therapist? Could they recommend someone to do an evaluation on you? Then you could present those results from test that actually have some merit in this situation instead of the bogus test these guys are trying to make you take?
  15. Estherfromjerusalem

    Estherfromjerusalem Well-Known Member

    klmno, if it happens with a small child, it's no big deal, but I prefer not to. I personally feel really uncomfortable with it. I felt that way even with my own children, and they got used to it that way and that's how they act too.

    Love, Esther
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Well...the kissing...Keyana and Hailie kiss on the lips...ages 2.5 and 1.5. They kiss what I would consider immediate family.

    If I listed everyone that consisted of it would be quite a list though...lol.
  17. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Well I feel horrible now about the the kissing when difficult child was little. I hope everyone here understands that even then, it was not anything other than parent-child affection with no perverse thoughts at all involved. It was that way when I was little and I really had no idea that this was not acceptable. I remember my mom giving me a peck on the lips when I was very young on certain occassions, and the other way around, and I never thought of it as anything more than affection.

    I could have the evaluation done indepently, but I would have to pay for it- apparently insurance won't cover it. I am going to let them know that I had already started seeing a therapist. Apparently, that was an issue with some- I guess they thought that I was just blaming everything on difficult child having a mental illness and not considering that maybe I needed a therapist or was refusing to get myself involved in any way. That isn't true and the judge does already know that. But, as an example, when I'm nervious my hands shake. My father had the same problem. I choose not to take medications for it and quite frankly doubt that they would work, but seriously, it harms no one so I don't care. They could decide to order me to take medications for it. The test they wanted to do would in no way be able to determine in what areas or how my personality might be affecting difficult child. The more I read about it, the more ridiculous it seemed, given exactly what they were going to do.

    I can see how it happened- the order just says it's a criminal case, not a custody case. This, of course, is true, but it's difficult child's criminal act, not mine. It says psychiatric test request for parent of juvenile. The only clarification given, if any, would have been an explanation from mst guy to the testor. The mst guy always felt thet difficult child just needed a behavior contract and better parenting and he would have no more problems and would probably be able to come off medications- yes he actually said that. And it was made clear to me that all those in the probation area (PO, mst, super) felt that difficult child had no mental illness, the problem was just me. So if I got a written test by a testor who had no information on me except that and the test is one that takes judgement from testor to determine problem areas, it is extremely dangerous, in my humble opinion.

    I doubt I'd have too much trouble defending that in court, if I could afford an attny. If I get chraged, I think they might have to allow an attny if my finances qualify and they do. And I do plan to make it clear- I have no problem with a complete assessment by qualified people to see if I'm doing something that is contributing to difficult child's problems. I think that would be more appropriate to be done by people who understand difficult child's issues, though, and they have contracted with difficult child's current treatment team, so if they'll accept those people assessing me (to inclulde my history, etc), I am fine with that. But I would still have a problem with them requiring me to take medications for something clearly unrelated to difficult child- like my hands shaking.
  18. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    A couple of you snuck in on me. Thank you- I feel a little better now!

    Oh shoot- I was expecting 3 important phone calls today and government offices are closed due to snow.
  19. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Well -

    WHAT IF YOU Were part of some of his dysfunction?

    Long story short - If you have issues? Deal with them - until you do? You can't help anyone else. I'd ask for free counseling and DID. (I had lots of issues and didn't know it). If you dont' have issues - ask them for free counseling to prove you don't and then get it in writing that you are issue free and quite capable. (these people get paid HOW much? UGH)

    As far as ?? #2.....

    Kissing a child on the lips is fairly normal until a certain age. If the person is of questionable motives? I would rip their lips off. We're a family of kissers - but cheek kissers. If there was an uncle who had a history,that was a toad - and he kissed a niece of mine on the lips with ulterior motives - we'd be going to his funeral.
  20. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Are you worried that someone is going to say that difficult child's problems are due to you kissing him on the lips? Oh please...that is really reaching.

    Me and my kids are very affectionate. They cuddle with me now even as old as they are. It is not unheard of for them to jump in my bed and snuggle up to give me hugs. I would bet the farm that when I was in the coma that they kissed me on the lips. I know they never left my room without kissing me somewhere and telling me that they loved me. Kissing didnt cause mental illness. Not kissing would be more apt too. Kids need our love and affection.