6yr old with possible ODD....I need your help!

[Misscurly]

Hi, im new here from the UK. I am desperate for any help or advice.
My 6 year old son has suspected ODD. School and health visitor and myself all think he has. Just waiting for a appointment with a therapist/councial/doctors.

I have been a single parent since he was 8 months old, He has always been a very demanding/attention seeking/strong willed/stubborn child...but the last year it has gone from every other day to almost constantly acting out.

Myself and school have tried all versions of time out/been on all the parenting courses/rewards/sticker charts/confiscating toys and taking priviliages away....nothing seems to make a single bit of difference. ..in his words "not bothered" "dont care" or his favourite "whatever"

School have put him on a CAF report and has now requested help from a organisation called DESCS to help and support them with him in school.

His behaviour at school is so bad they now wont have him in the class, he refuses to do his work (so he is falling behind) He is more than capable of the work he just refuses to do it. Rude/tantrums/aggresive towards teachers (sometimes other classmates) general defiance.

He loses his temper like the switch of a button for no apparent reason sometimes. Awkward/rude/ constant rude back chat/everything is someone elses fault/ lies and aggressive towards myself, teachers and the rest of my family. Most days he has me in tears, i have been told the waiting list for treatment/counciling are "months" long...but what do i do with him till then??????

Please any suggestions/ideas would be grately appreciated

Oh and most importanly is that i love him with all my heart and soul. He can be such a lovely little boy that is kind and loving and funny and will follow instructions. But this side to him seems to be only 10% of what he is like now, i start each day with a clean slate. But its getting harder and harder to be positve when you have a 6 year old battering any confidence you have

Thank you

 

[nvts]

Hi Misscurly! I like your avatar - it looks like my self-portrait!

I'm sorry you had to find us, but glad you're here. Have you read "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene? Now believe me, I know you're rolling your eyes at the computer and saying "yeah - I've got TONS of time to sit a read a book". It's a fairly quick read and gives you lots of insight - there are a LOT of people on here that swear by it.

If I may ask a few questions?

Did he meet all of his developmental milestones in a timely fashion (crawling, walking, feeding, etc.)?
Does he get extremely focused on one or two things and speak about them as if he's an authority on it (like trains, or trucks or a particular game)?
How is his eye contact with people (not necessarily you - like with teachers or adults in a grocery store)?
Does he have any issues with loud noises, certain smells, food textures, "itchy tags"?

I stinks that you have to wait so long for a counselor - if there's anything common with all of the countries on this board it is the fact that it seems to take FOREVER to get our kids in to see someone professional!

I tend to look at ODD as a symptom of other issues rather than a diagnosis (not saying that it isn't a diagnosis - it's just here in the states, it's become a label that later on turns out to be something else!).

We're here for you - let us know how you are!

Beth

 

[Misscurly]

Hi Beth, thank you for replying. Sorry its taken me a few days to reply i completly forgot my password to log in!

I had seen that a lot of people on here have read "the explosive child" so i ordered myself a copy. I also ordered "The defiant child" by Dr Douglas A.Riley and "A volcano in my tummy" by Eliane Whitehouse. They arrived yesterday so will start reading once i get a spare minute.
I have cut and pasted your questions, i will answer them in red

Did he meet all of his developmental milestones in a timely fashion (crawling, walking, feeding, etc.)?Yes sort of. he didnt really bother to crawl he rolled everywhere,stood up using furniture. then at 14 months old he got up and walked and practically ran the day after, he never went through the tottering stage. He went from rolling to walking properly. Feeding was not a problem, he was always a hungry baby, fed every 2 hours as a baby. he now eats very well, he will try anything and eats a lot of things even adults wouldnt. His favourite is chinese
Sleep or winding down for the night has always been a issue. "normal" babies will have a nap in the morning and afternoon too maybe, but since he was about 4/5 months he would not sleep in the day at all. But you could see he was tired, but he just wouldnt give in. Docs just said as he was sleeping at night it was not a problem. He would have around 10-12 hours sleep at night. As he has got older he is just the same. He does sleep through the night, but its taking him longer to wind down in the evening. It generally takes him 2/3 hours to go to sleep. I start about 6.30 trying to wind him down,then bath and a story. He is in bed from 7.30 ish( eventually goes to sleep anywhere from 8.30/10pm). Even when im reading him a story he is doing everything to keep him self awake. I would say the winding down going to sleep is getting longer and longer, but again the docs will only say.."well he does sleep through the night". This probably doesnt help his mood for the next day. As for getting up in the morning, that has never been a problem, the moment he opens his eyes he is up and away, never any sleep in's.
Does he get extremely focused on one or two things and speak about them as if he's an authority on it (like trains, or trucks or a particular game)? he has always been obsessed with cars. He doesnt like the baby looking cars though, never has ...for example...if a car has eyes/face or it talks. He likes a car to look like the real thing. He will always want me to watch him play, he doesnt like to just play on his own. ( i dont know if thats a only child thing) When he does want me to play the game with him, its all very controling...he wants me to drive the cars a certain way, park it at a certain place...so basically he is playing the game and im just moving the car the where he wants it...
He acts like he is a authority on pretty much every thing. If he asks you what something is or what something means and you explain to him ,he will then tell you that you are wrong and he thinks its something else ( very annoying when he does this, i feel like screaming " dont ask me if your not going to accept the answer" )
How is his eye contact with people (not necessarily you - like with teachers or adults in a grocery store)? I would say eye contact does vary depending on what mood he is in. If in good mood he will give eye contact
Does he have any issues with loud noises, certain smells, food textures, "itchy tags"? He doesnt have any issues with loud noises in general, but wont go to his school disco's because he always says its too loud??? dont know if that is relevant or not. I have a issue with "his" loud noises, when he's playing cars/trains etc and he's vrooming or beeping or choo choo..it always has to be mega loud You always now where he is as he is always whistling or making some kind of noise at the top of his voice. Im not sure if this is just to get my attention or not, but you certainly cant watch a tv programme if he is in the same room or sometimes even in another room.


I know this sounds awful but I am so glad his behavour is the same at school as it is at home, otherwise i dont think i would of got any help at all.

On a brighter note he has had 3 very good days, i am so very proud of him. But i dont want to get my hopes up as he will soon turn again. The back chat did start again early this evening

Oh another question I find some days he can control him self and other days its explosions from morning till night. Are they able to conrol themselves some days and not others??

Oh and i forgot to mention, if he meets a new person for the first time he will be absolutly charming and loveable, but once he gets to know them and they like him, it's like he doesnt need them to like him anymore and he is as rude to them as he is with me??

So many questions to bombard you with sorry. I am just so glad i found this website and you to help me on this long journey.

Thanks for listening
Natalie

 

[Marguerite]

Hi Natalie, I'm coming a bit late to this. Welcome, sorry you need us.

Your son sounds a lot like mine. The apparent rudeness, defiance, refusal to work in class even though he can do it - I do strongly beleive he needs to be assessed for Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form. Also possibly ADHD which you can have at the same time (some people say it's part of the specrum).

You would need a neuropsychologist assessment, they aren't necessariiy cheap. The school could possibly organise it but schools tend to not have the resources to really go into the child in depth. They also tend to average out the subscores, which means that a kid who is gifted but learning disabled, gets completely missed and classed as normal and average. A tragedy.

If the school has already done their own neuropsychologist assessment, get copies in detail of the sub-scores and send them to someone private who can then follow on with their own more detailed testing. But if there hasn't been anything done yet - then this is a vital investment in your child, go private for it.

When you get the results, look at the sub-scores. What has he scored really high in? What has he scored low in? Then you use this information to use his high skill areas to encourage him and help him in the low skill areas.

You also need them to work towards a diagnosis. The behaviours you describe could indicate poor social skills, difficulties in tis area which for your child, do not come as naturally as for other children. He IS capable of learning, but the usual reward/punishment is clearly not working. And anything that is not working - drop it. It is better to not try to discipline a child, than to try and get egg on your face.

There are other ways.

We recommend, among other books, "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. There will be other books recommended, but I suggest you start with this one. Get it out of your library or browse the info about it on this site (Early Childhood forum has some stickies dealing with this book).

Also for your own brainstorming exercise, go to www.childbrain.com and do their online Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire. You can't use it to diagnose, but you can print out the result and take it to the school, to the doctor, to a specialist and say, "This is an indication of what concerns me."

Welcome. We can help. Many of us have been where you are now, and are doing better.

I have so much more I could say, but I will wait until you're ready for it. It can be overwhelming and really, you have to deal with things a little piece at a time.

Marg

 

[Usha]

Hi, What does an issue with sticky tags indicate? My daughter has huge issues with it.

 

[Adizziedoll]

Hi there!

I'm extremely new to the board, and understanding all this new information that the doctors have so far have failed to tell me. So I can't really tell you what the next step would be, but boy can I relate! I know for me it was just nice to know that I wasn't alone...

"He acts like he is a authority on pretty much every thing. If he asks you what something is or what something means and you explain to him ,he will then tell you that you are wrong and he thinks its something else ( very annoying when he does this, i feel like screaming " dont ask me if your not going to accept the answer" )"
Strike me down if this isn't one of the most frustrating behaviors ... it makes me want to pull my hair out. Probably the same as your little guy, mine (who is also just about to be 6) will get explosive if you continue to try to explain and tell him that, while his thoughts are good, they aren't correct. He askes because he doesn't know, but in actuality he knows everything.

When he does want me to play the game with him, its all very controling...he wants me to drive the cars a certain way, park it at a certain place...so basically he is playing the game and im just moving the car the where he wants it...
It's like, why did you even ask me to do this with you? Can Mommy have a say in this at all? Ummm, no. Don't even try, or else.

I hope that you find the site as useful as I have in just the few days that I have actually been posting. It's nice to have a place to vent where you won't be judged, and gain information that you would have otherwise never known. Trust your instinct, fight for the correct diagnosis, and remember that you are the Momma.
Good luck to you

 

[Marguerite]

Usha (and any others with the same question) - "an issue with sticky tags" sounds like sensory integration issues which can also be a factor in a few other conditions, including Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD).

Adizziedoll and Natalie, the extreme need to control in these kids, is often because they feel that everything around them is so confusing and anarchic, that they need to limit things and control them in order to begin to make some sense of it all. They can cope better when they can predict better.

Do your utmost to not get angry or yell. Always try to stay calm. That doesn't mean you have to be a doormat - far from it. But as they can handle it, you calmly lead them to where you want them to be. For example with the cars and him telling you where - try asking him why you can't drive the car to a different place. Don't just take over and do it, just ask him or suggest (gently) and slowly work towards him being a little more flexible. Praise him to choosing to 'take a risk' or try something new. But don't push it if it begins to upset him.

As for always being an authority - praise him when he gets it right. But if he states something as 'fact' and you're fairly sure it's not, then try saying, "That is interesting. I didn't know that. I'd like to know more about that - let's go look it up and see what else we can find out about it."

When SIL2 moved in with us (a few years ago) he came from a family background where the men especially, bluff a lot (aka lie their heads off to try to impress). We challenged things he said in exactly the way I described - SIL2 would say, "the bloke that wrote that song was having an epileptic fit at the time," or some such nonsense, and we would say, "Really? I was so sure that was a myth. Well, well, you live and learn. Let's go find out more..." and then we would immediately go look it up. If he was right, we'd happily say so. If he was wrong - we'd educate him. Gently.

Over time he began to realise that first, he didn't need to try to impress us, that sort of thing made no difference to us. And second, knowledge and information needs to be true, but for us it is currency. The truth is far more important than the person telling us.

Of course, we now realise he got this from his dad, who is a major BS artist and sadly, feels a lot of pressure to impress. I've caught his dad out in some outrgeous and totally pointless lies - it really annoys me that hge feels he has to big-note himself to try to impress me. I like his dad, but the lies annoy me a lot. And you can't call him on it, it only makes him need to bluff all the hardrr, it's compulsive lying in his case.

In the case of your sons - it is NOT compulsive lying. But it is still a need to control, as well as a need to be certain. He needs knowledge, for him (as for husband & I) knowledge is currency.

So when you help him confirm his knowledge and even extend it, and do this with an air of exploration together with him, you are helping him increase his own knowledge base and this boosts his confidence in himself.

Do not try to control your child. If you do, you make the problem worse. Instead, work to help him learn self-control. Become his aide, not his warder. He is trying to control everyone and everything around him - if you try to reassert your own control back, it becomes a competition. And even though he's only a child, don't engage in such a competition with him because his focus is always going to be tighter and more directed than yours. You have too many other demands on you. He will always win. So don't engage, then you won't lose. The aim is for you to not lose, and also for him to win.

Avoid blame. Avoid competition. Use his intense need to control, to help him learn self-control and better personal organisation. Don't judge, avoid being over-critical. Support. Love. Unconditional love. Spend time with him, let him direct you. That actually makes it easier for you to say at a later stage, "It is now my turn to have you do things my way. I drove the cars the way you wanted, now this is my game. Please help me by doing things this way for now."
If you did things his way before, it increases your chance of him trying to do it your way.

One of the best rewards you can give him, is your time, doing what he wants you to do. This is good currency. It's OK to do this. But use it as a reward to get him to do what you want sometimes too. Trade on it.

Keep a diary, take notes, it will help you see progress.

With you newbies, I strongly recommend you put your own thread together for yourself, each of you. That way you will get the attention your problem needs personally. Otherwise you can risk getting overlooked, or possibly even hijacking someone else's thread.

Also I don't know if it's been said to you - don't use your real names, it is really important to maintain confidentiality. One day you might want to gripe about your child's school, or a relative, or a doctor, or someone else, and if that person knows you're posting in your own name and is worried about what you might say against them, you may feel less able to vent, for fear of being caught out.

I had a teacher of difficult child 3's who used to track everything I wrote. I had an article published in a small obscure journal, the article dealt with problems I'd had at the local school (which I carefully did not name). But this teacher got a copy of the article and circulated it round the school. I had not said anything untrue or even exaggerated, she could not have sued me. But it made me feel very uncomfortable to know every word I wrote was being searched out. This teacher was later a big problem for us with difficult child 3, even though she was trying to help him (in her own hamfisted way). There were times I really needed somewhere to vent, big-time, and was glad there was no way this teacher could track me here. I could be a lot freer in what I wanted to say - I only had to dodge the site censor!

Marg