Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Jungleland, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    That is me screaming HELP!!!

    Not sure how to help our difficult child learn that lying is not going to get her anywhere in this life.

    She has been spouting anything and everything that she thinks will get her either out of trouble or be more "popular". This is happening at school and at home.

    She is lying even when the person she is lying to calls her on it. And even when she knows the outcome will not be good for her.

    Her defiance is off the charts. I am at a loss to how to curb these behaviors. Have removed TV privleges, her room is basically her clothes, bed and one stuffy for comfort. The only thing we are allowing is her guided imagery cd's for when she is feeling out of control.

    Punishments are a joke to her. She really doesn't care if she can't have a friend over or will miss her favorite disney show. She seems content to keep with undesirable behaviors, darned the consequences.

    Yesterday her SDC teacher called. Asked me when was the last time I saw a behavior log come home. I told her it had been weeks. I ask difficult child daily where the log is and she has some explanation as to why teacher has not sent one home. Teacher said that there was a signature on one from the other day, but apparently I "misspelled" my own name!! Yes, difficult child is now "forging" my signature. UGH!

    The behaviorist is not even doing her/our assessment until late May. We need help NOW!!!

    difficult child is so defiant, rude, disrespectful it is unbearable.

    Her lying is so ridiculous. She will come out of her room stating she made her bed and put away clean clothes. husband or I go in and find room looks like a tornado hit it.

    Yes, she fed the dogs...dogs bowls are empty.

    She did her reading at the afterschool program, oh the program didn't sign the form, they were too busy...

    And on and on and on...

    I just don't get it. Does she really not think we will see that she has not done these things or that she is signing the logs or that we will not call to check with afterschool program???

    I have no idea how to address these issues as she seems to spill "stories" or lies or whathaveyou every second of every day.

    Her lying has got CPS involved in our lives again.

    All of these things are dragging our family down and making life at home miserable.

    I am at my wits end and wondering how to stop the madness.

  2. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not


    The bad news is that currently, lying "works" for her. It delays pain.

    It delays the pain of having to do chores, or homework or anything unpleasant.

    It delays the pain of being uncool and unpopular.

    It delays the pain of her reality.

    I'm sorry that I don't have any answers for you....but I do understand what you are going through....

  3. trinityroyal

    trinityroyal Well-Known Member

    Oh Vickie, I'm so sorry that your difficult child is lying like that. It can be so disruptive to everyone and everything. Even when everyone around her is aware that she is telling lies, it's so hard to get to the truth, because the story morphs by the second.

    My difficult child has done the same thing for years and years. He spews lies practically without thinking, and even when it's clear that he will be "busted" for it. Sadly, I don't have a lot of advice as to how to make it stop, because we've never found anything that worked.

    The one thing we have done is instituted a fact-check policy. In effect, everyone who deals with difficult child has been instructed to independently corroborate everything he tells them. If they're unable to back up something he says with independent proof, then it's assumed that he's lying. There's no real discipline or punishment that we've found effective, only the natural consequences that no one believes him, no matter what the circumstance.

    I don't know if it's possible to put something like that in place for your difficult child. It doesn't curb the lying, but it does lessen the likelihood that you'll get taken in by it.

  4. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Thank you daisy, it does "work" for her.

    I forgot to add that difficult child is arguing everything into the ground. We say it's cold today, NOPE apparently it's hot outside...

    And she is picking fights with her little sister and husband and I.

    Yep, life is soooo fun in the Jungle these days. errrrrr
  5. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Trinity, we are doing that, but not with the consistency we should. I think that might help some, worth a try anyways. Thanks!
  6. trinityroyal

    trinityroyal Well-Known Member

    Consistency, that's the killer.

    Sadly, I've gotten to the point where I just don't believe a word my difficult child says to me, which makes it easier to do this. That said, it's such a pain to have to follow up every single time.
  7. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    I don't have advice, just sympathy! My difficult child 1 used to lie like that and also she would lie about things that she could just as easily told the truth about! Taking privileges or things away from her never worked either, she just didn't care.

    She told me recently (she is 20 now) that she really had a bad case of ODD when she was younger--(you think?!) She said that whatever I said she would do the opposite just to defy me. She doesn't know why she was like that.

    In our case things didn't really improve til I made her leave our home permanently at the age of 18. I still think she lies a lot but since I don't live with her or even near her it doesn't really have any impact on my life. I am able to just take what she says at face value.

    Hope someone else can come along with some actual advice!

  8. lovemysons

    lovemysons Well-Known Member

    Hi Vickie,
    Was just thinking of something my young difficult child told me recently about forms of punishment that actually helped him while growing up...

    Writing it down, that's what he told me, that writing what he did wrong and the consequences and apologizing were helpful.
    Maybe you could try this with your difficult child, I don't know, just a thought. Maybe if she could put it down in writing she might see the seriousness of it...that she is not believed when she speaks, that she loses priveleges, that life becomes harder for her and the family not easier, etc. Also what she might do next time INSTEAD of lying...how to make it right.

    Hope you get some good answers that help soon.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  9. Stella

    Stella New Member

    Jungleland - sorry for what you're going through with difficult child. I can understand what you're going through to a certain extent and it's just so frustrating when they just don't seem to give damn about the consequences of their actions. I agree she seems to have become very advoidant. She has mastered the skill of avoidance and it's working for her. Sadly I can't give you any advice myself but I really like Lovemysons idea of getting difficult child to write down what she has done wrong. I am defintely going to give that one a go, Will help her practice her spelling at the same time!! lol!!

  10. mom_to_3

    mom_to_3 Active Member

    This is very much how our difficult child was while growing up. You have my sympathies for sure. Our difficult child still continues to live her life this way. I do know one thing THAT DOES NOT WORK.................. and that is to stay on top of everything and to make that child accountable. It makes that child soooo angry! I don't know the answer, it just goes against my grain to ignore such behavior, but I know from this side, making her do whatever she didn't do previously, and checking in all the time, verifying, set my difficult child off worse. If I had all the money in the world and went thru what we experienced with our difficult child, I would have sent her to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). Maybe that would have spared our relationship, who knows. I do know that this is very aggravating! Good luck to you!
  11. nvts

    nvts Active Member

    One thing that worked for us was, "if you tell the truth, you won't get in trouble". Now, since she's 11 you could try, "if you tell the truth, I'll be willing to discuss whether or not there will be a punishment BUT if I find out that you lied, your trouble will be 5 times worse than it would have been if you told the truth". Then stick to it.

    Forged signature? That's a major.

    "Did you sign my name on the log? Remember, if you lie the consequences will be 5 times worse."

    2 things can happen.

    1. she tells the truth. Congratulate her for making a great decision, and let her know that although you're disappointed in the action, you're really proud that she chose to tell the truth. Then hand out a reasonable punishment.

    2. she lies. You're busted - 5 days, not computer, telephone or technology.....whatever will impact her. But remember: whatever you decide will have to be enforced.

    Good luck! I hope it works for you! ;)

  12. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Lying is a BAAAAAAAAAAD habit and our difficult child's seem so comfy there.

    What you described was Dude not so long ago. IT was so frustrating! Matter of fact this is the issue that DF STILL can't get over - and won't for a long time and that's okay because someone needs to make them be accountable.

    When this became our #1 issue we went to the therapist. Dude admitted that yes, he lies, he doesn't know why - it just comes out. For stupid stuff - like - Did you feed the dog? Yes - check bowl....NO you did not!!!! UGH. SO asks him - WHY would you lie about feeding the dog?
    I dunno
    There is a reason - you must give us a reason
    I dunno
    I dunno is not an acceptable reason - try again, WHY did you LIE about feeding the dog?
    .......BECAUSE....when I have to feed the dog I have less time to play.
    REALLY? Your dog - and you can't feed it?
    NO - I don't want to feed it.
    Okay - then the dog is going to the Humane Society
    NOOOOOOOooooooo I'll feed it. (starts to cry) I love my dog.
    Well if you love him - you'll feed him. If you lie about it one more time - the dog is gone.
    Oh really - not a big deal for the dog to go?
    (sat sullen with arms crossed, and that furled eyebrow thing)
    Fine - Dad - take Puckey to the Humane Society
    Dude crying and crying yelling NO NO not my PUckey
    (Dad relented and brought Puckey back in the house)

    HERE is the deal - WE dont' believe you - WE don't belive a single word that is coming out of your mouth. If you tell me you're going to the bathroom I'm goign to follow you down the hall and stand outside the door. If I aske you if you flushed - I'll be looking, DId you wash your hands? THe door will be open and I'll see you washing your hands.

    As far as your dog? If you tell us you fed him and we look and you did not - we're giving you ONE change to double check - then admit you didn't feed it, then feed it. ONE TIME - you lie - he's gone.

    And thus - PUckey lived with us no longer. The first time Dude told us he fed Puckey and we said "Are you sure?"" giving him an opportunity to check and he lied? DF loaded Puckey and DUde in the car, drove to the Humane society and DF made DUde walk Puckey in and tell them WHY he was giving his dog up for adoption - He had to tell bunches of people "Becuase I lied about feeding my dog."

    WE did this - for EVERYTHING....and I mean EVERYTHING. During the time that Dude was at his worst for lying? WE were stuck to him like glue. He would say "But I'm just going outside to play." and we were told to grab a chair, and follow him outside and say "THen I must watch you play because you lie so much I don't know if I can believe you." if he got done playing and said "I'm going to go inside now" we had to get up and follow him - if he questioned or got upset about us following him - we were to say again "WE don't belive you because you are a liar." and follow him in the house. WHen he stopped asking - we stopped calling him a liar, but we still followed him everywhere.

    It got to the point where telling us the truth was EASIER than lying. Lying takes work - your parents will follow your every single move and call you on it. If he was done at the end of the night and said "I'm going to bed." One of us got up and followed him to his bedroom, watched him get in bed and then turned out the lights. We even had it worked out that I would stand in the hall - and DF would shut the door to the den - so that DUde would think I was gone - when he came sneaking out of his room? THe first few times it shocked him to tears......there I was standing in the hall WAITING for lying boy to come out of his bed. That went on for about 2 weeks until he got in the habit of KNOWING I was standing in the hall - or was I?

    There were no penalties for lying - there was just me and DF following his every move.....and trust me after a couple months of THAT? Your kids wear down before you do. YOu don't get upset you don't engage them in a conversation or arguement - you just say "You never tell the truth, so I can't belive you, that causes problems so I'm going to stick to you like glue and make sure what you say is the truth because I don't want to live with a liar."

    I hope I NEVER have to do that again .......but when we went to therapy we'd all sit down and Dude was asked "So how do you think you're improving on telling the truth, that seemed to be a big issue with you and your parents." and Dude said "Ask THEM - they never leave me alone." This was the first sign that this was working - it was a week after we started it. It took that child 2 months before we allowed him to leave the room on his own without asking "What are you doing? WHere are you going? and not following him." and the first time he left the room without us? He did what he said he was going to do, came back in the room and said in a snotty tone "See I went to the bathroom just like I said." and we said "Yes, we believe you." - and he just smiled.

    It's hard - it's time consuming - and it doesn't seem like your plan is working - and of course in difficult child fashion they will try to make a game out of it or tell you they LOVE being watched on their every move - but they don't really.

    Past doing this? WE tried punishing DUde for lying - and all it got any of us was frustrated. He'd lie - he'd get XX taken from him. He was FINE with weighing the odds and knowing that if he lied he'd have to live without XX for XX days - but what he could NOT know was that when you lie - someone will be watching your EVERY MOVE.....even when you potty....and belive me no one liked giving up their time - for two whole months I thought we'd go batty. ANd did.......but trust is something that is given until it's broken. THen trust must be earned and if I have to stand there and make sure I can trust you to go potty? Eventually it will wear you out. But I figured either I was committed to this exercise OR I would be committed to the nut shack or difficult child would be committed to prison where they watch you like this anyway -

  13. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Pico and Blondie had a very good thread in the archives about consequences and punishments. The gist of what they said was that you cant have the difficult child calculating if the price of the misbehavior is worth the consequence. Hmmm...is it worth one night of losing tv for me to forge my mom's signature and risk getting caught? If I lie...maybe they wont catch me in a lie...they cant catch me everytime. But if they finally do catch me...oh well...I can tell the truth and still only get the one day. I only get the 5 days if I go all out. hmmmm....this may work!
  14. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Star....we should do parenting seminars!
  15. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911


    Can you see the look on the faces of the parents in the audince when we would start to give a peek into our lives with Cory and Dude?

  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I think its funny when we are both on the board and post at the same time. Half the time we post the same thing in different words.
  17. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Thanks everyone, some great advice and suggestions.

    Star, will have to think that one through. Can't see husband being onboard with this, he is NOT the most consistent person I know. Aly, at home, is always underfoot, actually can't get away from her, lol. But being told that we are stuck to her like glue because of the loss of trust and it being OUR idea, might just help. Hmmmm...definetly worth some serious thought on.

    Taking away tv time or whatever, is not a very good punishment for our difficult child. She is a "so in the moment" kinda kid that I am not even sure she gets it.

    This morning was horrible. Blow out because she STILL didn't bring behavior log home after all of this and I called her on it. I am giving her the chance to meet me at her lunchtime today and bringing me yesterday's log. If she does not, I am her shadow the rest of the day. And let's just say, today is laundry and cleaning day so I will not be dressed to impress. He he he he he (evil laugh).

    Wish me luck!
  18. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    You have my best wishes - and......

    I have shown up to school in a pair of pajamas, curlers and slipper -

    Had an overcoat on, but it was to prove a point - and I think I only needed to do that once.

    GO FOR IT.....

    I also showed up in full witch makeup, hag hair, black hat and cape - I was dropping off cupcakes......lol. After that I'm not sure they questioned why Dude was like he was.
  19. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Daisy, I agree with-the others. She does not want to do these things. They're all avoidance tactics.

    We've been through this, and it does continue if you don't stay on top of it. Believe it or not, I learned to double check people's work from a mega-real estate developer. He said if someone tells you they've cut the grass, go look out the window to make sure they've actually cut it. It sounds like micromanaging, but it seems to be human nature that people will get away with-whatever they can.

    When my difficult child says he's made his bed, I say, in a fake happy voice, "Oh, good! Let's go see!" and then I go upstairs. Halfway up the stairs, he's tugging on my arm, "Wait, I just have to finish one thing!" LOL.

    The idea is not to yell. I can say this because I still yell ... on occasion. :) :) :)

    Also, do not pile on the chores for her. "Clean your room" may be too big of a deal for her. I'll bet that if your difficult child is like mine, her emotional age is way behind her chronological age. So pretend you're dealing with-a much smaller child, and break her chores into smaller chores. "Remove all your pillow cases and put them in the laundry room. Fold your comforter and put it on top of your bed. Put all your school books in your backpack."
    Three things. That's it. Even if her room is still a mess, she will understand that she put a dent in it.
    (Frankly, I have to do that to myself when I get overwhelmed with-my office!)

    Then, at dinner, brag about how she helped clean her room. It will kill you to half-lie, but it will boost her ego.

    Don't expect it to work overnight. Expect that you will have to continue this until she moves out. Then, if she makes huge strides, you'll be 10X happier!
  20. helpangel

    helpangel Active Member

    Any chance teacher would email the behavior logs? I like the if you can't trust them watch them approach, I'll have to try that one.