Anyone else dealing with a pathological/compulsive liar?
P-nut2004
New Member
Carolyn: We have also, yes even at her age, had issues with her stealing money or belongings from the family which she of course lies about. And she comes home alot with small things she insists her friends gave her (cute pencils & erasers etc) I question it but I don't usually push the issue because so far she hasn't shown up with anything big or expensive.
MWM: I have no clue what she's telling the kids at school, which worries me. I do believe that a good portion of the stories are designed to make people like her or pay attention to her & I have seen this in action. We have also had issues with her shoplifting small items and claiming she has no idea how they got in her pocket if she gets busted. *sigh* I know everyone says not to dwell on this but all of this scares the *&%# out of me because I'm afraid of what we're headed for as she gets older. I am glad to hear that after all of the troubling behavior your daughter turned out to be a 'normal' adult.
Keista: Thanks for the hug & yes I'm sure she will be able to have a career as a fantasy book writer or script writer if she retains her imagination into adulthood.
Step: You are right, if she is paying attention to DHs little white lies it could be influencing her but I honestly don't think she has picked up on it as I don't make a big deal out of it. I have learned to not even ask him if he did something or fuss at him for it because it only causes an argument. And although its very hypocritical of him, husband does preach the 'honesty is the best policy' theory as well.
MWM: I have no clue what she's telling the kids at school, which worries me. I do believe that a good portion of the stories are designed to make people like her or pay attention to her & I have seen this in action. We have also had issues with her shoplifting small items and claiming she has no idea how they got in her pocket if she gets busted. *sigh* I know everyone says not to dwell on this but all of this scares the *&%# out of me because I'm afraid of what we're headed for as she gets older. I am glad to hear that after all of the troubling behavior your daughter turned out to be a 'normal' adult.
Keista: Thanks for the hug & yes I'm sure she will be able to have a career as a fantasy book writer or script writer if she retains her imagination into adulthood.
Step: You are right, if she is paying attention to DHs little white lies it could be influencing her but I honestly don't think she has picked up on it as I don't make a big deal out of it. I have learned to not even ask him if he did something or fuss at him for it because it only causes an argument. And although its very hypocritical of him, husband does preach the 'honesty is the best policy' theory as well.
P-nut2004
New Member
Bracing for criticism as I type this (but hey we're talking about being honest here anyway)....we chose not to endorse the idea of santa, easter bunny etc. Instead we taught the kids that we work to earn the money to give them gifts & we also stress that no holiday is about 'getting stuff'. We don't have the same holidays as most other ppl but they do fall very close to the same dates, we are very big on explaining the 'true meaning' behind them and what is to be celebrated and the gifts that are given always have some significance to the particular holiday. Trust me we have gotten all kinds of flack for this but I absolutely do not regret the decision. by the way we have also taught them not to go around busting other kids bubbles, and so far none of them has informed any 'believer' that said imaginary figure does not exist.
Step I do kind of agree with your statement that Santa is a feeling, we just refer to it as 'the holiday spirit' instead of giving it a persona and the kids get a lot of joy out of picking out and giving others gifts rather than fixating on what Santa will bring them. They make a 'wish list' which is passed out to the family and they know most of their gifts will come from that list so in a way they have similar expectations but more respect for where all those expensive electronics come from LoL
Step I do kind of agree with your statement that Santa is a feeling, we just refer to it as 'the holiday spirit' instead of giving it a persona and the kids get a lot of joy out of picking out and giving others gifts rather than fixating on what Santa will bring them. They make a 'wish list' which is passed out to the family and they know most of their gifts will come from that list so in a way they have similar expectations but more respect for where all those expensive electronics come from LoL
AnnieO
Shooting from the Hip
No criticism here!
When Onyxx was 7, first-response-trained-husband saved a little girl's life in a car accident. He made the paper, and BM saw it... So she then told the kids that he lied to the newspaper, and to prove he was a liar, that Santa didn't exist, it was their father, and that's why they didn't get everything they wanted - because he would not buy it.
Jett did not remember, so we had a couple of years to ease him into the spirit of things.
In 2006, I made a donation to Toys for Tots in the kids' names. On Christmas, I had Onyxx open and read it - and then she demanded to know where the money was. I still make donations - they go in my grandpa's name, letter to my Mom.
A couple years later, husband and I took one look at ALL the GIFTS under the tree and put on the brakes - just too much!!! We asked the grandparents to back off, and we now do one "big" gift and one "small" one, plus stocking stuffers - and last year, Onyxx thought our soup kitchen idea was great, until it came time to commit to it.
The kids have always known who the tooth fairy was and Easter Bunny as well. EB is stepmom, and she doesn't wear ears, and we no longer do baskets. TF is Dad.
When Onyxx was 7, first-response-trained-husband saved a little girl's life in a car accident. He made the paper, and BM saw it... So she then told the kids that he lied to the newspaper, and to prove he was a liar, that Santa didn't exist, it was their father, and that's why they didn't get everything they wanted - because he would not buy it.
Jett did not remember, so we had a couple of years to ease him into the spirit of things.
In 2006, I made a donation to Toys for Tots in the kids' names. On Christmas, I had Onyxx open and read it - and then she demanded to know where the money was. I still make donations - they go in my grandpa's name, letter to my Mom.
A couple years later, husband and I took one look at ALL the GIFTS under the tree and put on the brakes - just too much!!! We asked the grandparents to back off, and we now do one "big" gift and one "small" one, plus stocking stuffers - and last year, Onyxx thought our soup kitchen idea was great, until it came time to commit to it.
The kids have always known who the tooth fairy was and Easter Bunny as well. EB is stepmom, and she doesn't wear ears, and we no longer do baskets. TF is Dad.
I just want to send hugs. The lies you describe, esp about things that didn't take place that don't serve any purpose like getting you out of trouble or someone else into trouble, remind me of a jr high classmate. This girl, KC I will call her, told the most unbelievable, outrageous lies - things that no one would ever believe. Like the CIA coming to her house to get her to help get secrets for a spy and then smuggle him out of the country - and she couldn't tell her parents or get their help with any of it. This was the first one I heard and was just so far fetched that it was all I could do to stare. We were 13 at the time. For a long time we all thought she told these lies for attention. If someone commented on a song or artist then the artist was so thankful for her help with something or an idea she gave them or how she inspired them that the artist wrote a song just for her and gave her the rights to it. Of course no one ever heard the song because she was keeping it all to herself, refusing to let it be recorded so it would be special just for her. Or there was a huge bidding war for the song between several top artists and she was going to spend the summer with the one who wins the rights so she can make sure they record it "right". This was back in the days of the band Wham and seh KNEW that the artists were not gay because they hit on her = but of course she didn't do anything with them because she was a "good girl", but they were heartbroken because she said no. Those were the more believable of her stories. I know several people spoke to her parents about them, simply because they were SO crazy and she truly seemed to believe some of them. That was the part that alarmed many of us that knew her.
Her parents moved her to a small private school when their church opened one, but the people who she still saw said that the lies kept coming. The change was that they became religious in nature and even more delusional. By high school her parents were at their wit's end to figure out what was going on (this was the 80s and Oklahoma didn't have children's hospitals or even many psychiatrists/tdocs who treated kids like this at that time). I lost track after that but I won't ever forget feeling so sad that she felt she had to have these lies as part of her life. I know that one teacher was so worried she started keeping track of the various lies and how she would change them when challenged on any of the facts (things like how did you get this person out of the country through NY when you were at school on Friday and at the game on Sat and in church on Sun and in school on Mon?). This one teacher tried to get her to recognize them as fantasy and work to write them as short stories or books, or even to dictate them to someone as stories. But ANY challenge to the reality of the lie would send KC into near hysterics. That was what scared so many of us.
I wish I could say things changed. A friend recently posted on facebook that she ran into KC about a year ago and her various stories are still being spun.
I hope that your daughter can accept her own special qualities and give up the idea that she has to have all of these things to make her special and interesting to others. I think that you will need a very experienced therapist and psychiatrist and possibly a neuropsychologist to help unravel the whys of this problem and to help her find solutions that work better than the lies. So many times KC sat at lunch near us and people were so hesitant to speak to her because almost anything could get her to tell you some crazy lie.
Her parents moved her to a small private school when their church opened one, but the people who she still saw said that the lies kept coming. The change was that they became religious in nature and even more delusional. By high school her parents were at their wit's end to figure out what was going on (this was the 80s and Oklahoma didn't have children's hospitals or even many psychiatrists/tdocs who treated kids like this at that time). I lost track after that but I won't ever forget feeling so sad that she felt she had to have these lies as part of her life. I know that one teacher was so worried she started keeping track of the various lies and how she would change them when challenged on any of the facts (things like how did you get this person out of the country through NY when you were at school on Friday and at the game on Sat and in church on Sun and in school on Mon?). This one teacher tried to get her to recognize them as fantasy and work to write them as short stories or books, or even to dictate them to someone as stories. But ANY challenge to the reality of the lie would send KC into near hysterics. That was what scared so many of us.
I wish I could say things changed. A friend recently posted on facebook that she ran into KC about a year ago and her various stories are still being spun.
I hope that your daughter can accept her own special qualities and give up the idea that she has to have all of these things to make her special and interesting to others. I think that you will need a very experienced therapist and psychiatrist and possibly a neuropsychologist to help unravel the whys of this problem and to help her find solutions that work better than the lies. So many times KC sat at lunch near us and people were so hesitant to speak to her because almost anything could get her to tell you some crazy lie.
keista
New Member
No criticism from me either. Wish I had done the same as you since, after all, *snicker*, wait for it . . . we're not even Christians. We have no specific religious affiliation, although I was 'raised' Catholic. We acknowledge all Holidays and learn about religious and cultural differences as well as similarities. As a parent, I consciously chose to perpetuate the iconic "lies", so unfortunately I may have to pay the piper due to it some day.
in my humble opinion--
There is a difference between playing along with a fantasy for fun (like Santa or being in a play or pretending with little kids) and out-and-out lying.
To stop hearing the lies? I have stopped asking the questions...
I just assume that my experience and "Mommy-Instincts" can be trusted.
If I have a feeling that difficult child is trying to plan something that I would not allow (such as sneaking out to a party), I don't even ask her about it. When she says "Can I go around the corner to the dollar store?" I just say NO! I don't say 'I know you're lying about going to the dollar store'....I don't ask for "proof" that she has gone to the dollar store...I don't confront her and try to somehow "catch her' in the lie....
I assume it's a lie...
I say NO.
If I see a bad grade on a report card? I don't ask... I don't need to hear a big, long elaborate story about how the teacher misplaced the homework and besides, EVERYBODY failed the last test and the teacher was so unfair about not letting difficult child re-take it and yadda, yadda, yadda...
I assume she is going to tell me a lie...
so I don't even ask...
I just ground her.
The end.
There is a difference between playing along with a fantasy for fun (like Santa or being in a play or pretending with little kids) and out-and-out lying.
To stop hearing the lies? I have stopped asking the questions...
I just assume that my experience and "Mommy-Instincts" can be trusted.
If I have a feeling that difficult child is trying to plan something that I would not allow (such as sneaking out to a party), I don't even ask her about it. When she says "Can I go around the corner to the dollar store?" I just say NO! I don't say 'I know you're lying about going to the dollar store'....I don't ask for "proof" that she has gone to the dollar store...I don't confront her and try to somehow "catch her' in the lie....
I assume it's a lie...
I say NO.
If I see a bad grade on a report card? I don't ask... I don't need to hear a big, long elaborate story about how the teacher misplaced the homework and besides, EVERYBODY failed the last test and the teacher was so unfair about not letting difficult child re-take it and yadda, yadda, yadda...
I assume she is going to tell me a lie...
so I don't even ask...
I just ground her.
The end.
hearts and roses
Mind Reader
We also are not affiliated with any specific religion. Both H and I were raised Catholic and I suppose it's natural that we celebrated Christian holidays, however, we did research other holidays so we and my daughters were aware of other religious cultures out there. And I did raise them believing in the Easter bunny, tooth fairy and Santa. I believe that those are not lies, but fantasy, bringing light and fun into our lives - it's storytelling and harmless. As the kids grow, they figure it out themselves and that is when we had a discussion about what it means to believe in such things that bring us joy and is fun. I don't believe it has to be a traumatic thing for kids nor do I believe these things are on the same level as lying to get out of trouble or to deceive another. I still have all the letters and notes my girls wrote to the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy and santa. It's all in fun and in my opinion harmless.
As an aside, my easy child has a very well adjusted sense of her own individual spirituality assigning herself to particular religious sect, however, difficult child still struggles with this. Actually, she's not strugging with it - she doesn't even think about it. She used to think she leaned toward pagan beliefs but now she says she doesn't believe in anything because they all talk about death too much - lol!!
Sorry for the highjack P-nut!
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
Wish I had some sage advice, but I do agree with-Insane in that more testing is in order and that this is partially not being able to help it and partially deliberate. You may never know, but you can certainly keep the lines of communication open and tell her that certain things are absolutely not correct. The other things you can perhaps discuss at length, maybe by a question-answer mode, aka "Do you remember doing this yesterday? Do you remember what we discussed then and how it turned out?" Just a thought.
OMG, turning a bug bite into being run over by a car! That's a Big Fish Story for sure.
OMG, turning a bug bite into being run over by a car! That's a Big Fish Story for sure.
