Court case is over and Bart isnt happy

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
Every "nightmare" Bart worried about happened in the Judges ruling, although nothing was really that big a deal. It was inevitable he lost some battles and not the end of the world but to him it is.

I was sympathetic and listened a lot but when he said "I cant do it that way for another day" I said "The Judge ruled and now you need to find a way to deal with it. Not my ways that I deal, you dont like them. This is reality, the Judge ruled, and you have to accept it in YOUR way."

"I cant. Could you?"

"Yes! I have dealt with many things but you arent interested in how. I would get professional help first off." I just HAD to put in my unwanted two cents :(

"Thats your way, not mine. Your ideas are stupid."

"So I will listen but offer no other ideas." I shut down when he says "stupid."

Wow. My head hurts. There is no comfort I can give him. No suggestions. Nothing. And I am taking a vacation from this craziness. The holidays are coming and I am excited and will focus on that. Three days eill pass before I talk to him again.

In the middle of our chat Bart said "J. Is my entire world. I have nothing else."

I said he needs other interests. J. will grow up and leave.

"Gee, thanks for saying that."

" All kids leave. You did."

He grumbled, didnt like it.

He also said lawyers want all your money and dont care if you become poor because of them and that he likes his toys and will not live poor. He said derisively he knows I dont care of! if I am poor but he cant live that way. And if he has to spend enough to make him poor, he may as well kill himself."

I just said "What about J?"

He said "J doesnt want me if Im poor!"

I said "Thats ridiculous. He wants you, poor or not."

So Bart then hung up as I apparently hit a nerve (although I dont know which) and I took a deep breath. His values are so screwed up. I know parents think their kids get their values from them, but its not always true. He wasnt brought up to think he has to have "stuff" in order to be worthy.

Anyway I am resting until he has calmed down and, as always, my loved ones who care for me will encourage me not to talk to him again.

I cant bear no contact ever but I can bear low contact.

And so it will be.

Love and life!!
 
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Triedntrue

Well-Known Member
I agree with low contact not no contact I just can't bring myself to do it. I draw the line though when he is being verbally abusive. When that happens I block him for up to a week. My son reacts the same when dealing with the courts and they don't seem to realize that they brought it on themselves at least my son did. Prayers that you can enjoy the holidays with those who support you.
 

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
Thank you. My son didnt exactly bring it on himself but its a custody case.....he retained 50 percent custody. But there are some things that infuriate him. Its so insane.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
Well last I remember he was never going to talk to you again. Guess he got over that. He'll get over this too.

I thought he won? I mean, J is staying 50/50 like before and didn't have the change schools. Wasn't that the biggest issue? Nevertheless - he's going to have to learn to live with it. The judge has spoken and won't be happy if he goes right back trying to change it again, so you're right. He has to learn to live with it.

" All kids leave. You did."

He grumbled, didnt like it.
But he can't deny that's a fact. Kids are born, they grow up, they leave home. It's natural.

I just said "What about J?"

He said "J doesnt want me if Im poor!"

I said "Thats ridiculous. He wants you, poor or not."

So Bart then hung up as I apparently hit a nerve (although I dont know which) and I took a deep breath.
That conversation makes me sad. Does he really think that his son only loves him for what he buys him? What a sad thing to think so little of yourself. I mean, we know that we deal with kids who we wonder...do they love us, or just want to use us? But not little guys (good little guys) like J.

And I am taking a vacation from this craziness. The holidays are coming and I am excited and will focus on that. Three days eill pass before I talk to him again.
A very good plan.
 

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
The Judge said rightfully that the two of them can not be at peace without a parental coordinator. A parental coordinator is a guardian with the ability to make legal decisions. The last one they had ruled almost always in favor of Barts ex and Bart doesnt want to be under the legal eye anymore... plus its pricey. My ex husband has the money to pay for him but is getting frail and sick and is cranky and forever threatens to pull his monetary help.

The thing is, Bart can say he csnt afford the Parental Coordinator. I dont know what happens if you wont pay but he could try saying he cant. Also Bart has a little secret...he makes six figures. Now it is eaten up because of child support and the bills for his son, but he also wants and loves expensive toys, especially electronics. For himself and his son who has everything materially.
.
Although he wouldnt be able to buy expensive toys if he paid for the parental coordinators himself, he could bite a very hard bullet and do it. But the idea of living a poor man's life is almost as repulsive to him as not having J. As much as he wants him (although he lost no time with his son in this ruling.)

But he may not have a choice and he cant accept not having a choice. He so far can not acceept a parental coordinator .The old one traumatized him.

Everything scares him. He has extreme social anxiety and people with titles scare him. He wont get help.

If this were me, in this bad spot, I would so have reached out to others for advice, guidance snd support. And I do accept what is. So it is hard for me to not encourage him to do what worked for me.

He does nothing to even try to see if reaching out works.

He also expects me to give up my time with Hub, Jumper, Princess and Sonic to spend HOURS on the phone with him. Why? Because he is going through the worst thing ever except cancer and I need to give him more time because of that.

I wont do that. My other kids are not only equally important but fun and my husband is very important! If Jumper or Sonic is over, they get my time.

Maybe this is karma. My Mom hated me and thought I was a big problem to her. Maybe I was worse than my memories. I do believe in karma.

But then why am I blessed with five angels...hub, other kids, granddaughter....it is very confusing. Bart is a lesson the Universe wants me to learn...uncondituonal love. How NOT to be my mom with a kid who is honestly a gazillion times more difficult than i was....and I was never mean to him like Mother was to me. So I guess its different...but still a lesson.

At any rate, karma aside, Bart is getting plenty from me and I do have a busy life aside from him. I push myself to have a busy, fun life. He can do the same maybe with counseling. I hope one day....

Love to the Universe and God and archangels!
 
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Tired out

Well-Known Member
Well if Bart and his ex could grow-up and get along then there wouldn't need to be a mediator. if he was smart he would get therapy help to learn to deal with ex and save money on the court appointed mediator. The only way that judge will life the mediator requirement is if Bart shows that he has addressed the way he handles things. Bart needs to realize J is the most important thing, not his own toys. Love and peace and a calm mind are much more important than things.
SWOT, good for you taking a step back and enjoying the rest of your family. Bart is draining you.

Huggs.
 

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
Thank you. Yes.

This is not a mediator. This is a Parental Coordinator and they are ex Judges and attornies who have LEGAL POWER to make decisions between the two since they can never come to a concensus. So this is much more serious. A mediator is NOT legally binding. This is like still being in court.

I have gently told son he now must find a way to deal with the fact that he is under a legal eye even though the case is over. As before I suggested therapy to help him cope, a divorce support group to make friends who are in the same situations, going back to his old fanatical love of sports (he is no longer interested), and trying to find new interests.

When I put forth ideas, he calls them dumb and hangs up. I know he will and am so used to this that it causes me no distress or pain at all. I just go on with what needs to be done next. Then when he ine inevitably calls again (soon), he doesnt apoligize or address the rudeness. Normally this just flies over my head too. Today he called me three times about the case. Thats too much, so it bugged me. Tomorrow I am going to put my phone on vibrate. In general my other kids text me. Hubby too. My friends sometimes call but I can see who is calling on my screen. I dont have to answer.

Three days off. Why dont I cut him off?

I love him dearly. He IS my son.

My mother cut me off and I was a good person. I did have a mild form of bipolar and very poor social skills but she was very much the same and probably was borderline. Because I know how it feels to be rejected by your mother, I just can not cut off my son as long as he loves and needs me and he does. He has said things that make me not feel safe alone with him but he is far away and I will never be alone with him. So talking to him feels like the right thing to do....but taking breaks sounds ok too. And not pushing my other family to engage with him also seems right.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
if I am poor but he cant live that way. And if he has to spend enough to make him poor, he may as well kill himself."

I just said "What about J?"

He said "J doesnt want me if Im poor!"
Bart is impossible, SWOT. I am not saying otherwise, but you have choices too.

When he starts talking like this (the quote) you COULD get off the phone. You KNOW that when he starts in like this that he is going NOWHERE good. He is being mean to you. He knows how you will react. He knows you hate it. He just does not want to control himself.

He can NEVER threaten suicide even if it is to make a point. This is very, very cruel. But you engaged. You took his bait. You took his bait and you stayed in conversation with him, while he was talking mean nonsense.

This is something that you can learn to control. You know you cannot control him but you have control over what you do. Bart is living the life he chooses. You know that. He has loads of good things in his life, that other people do not have. Money for one. A lovely child, even more important. A home. Hobbies. A great job. All of the girlfriends he wants. A loving mother.

He and his ex-wife have earned this Parental Coordinator. Both of them have. No matter how horrible is the ex-wife (and she is horrible, I recognize that) he is her match in terms of his unwillingness to moderate his behavior and cooperate even a little bit.

But the thing is Bart loves you. I think part of our job as mothers is to train our sons how to love us. While Bart does not care if he hurts you in these conversations, I believe he can learn self-control with you. He can learn it because he is motivated to be connected to you. He cannot and does not want to lose you. I feel convinced he will learn to be less hurtful if you show him how by the limits you set.
 
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Elsi

Well-Known Member
Oh SWOT, he sounds exhausting. And narcissistic. Does he ever ask you how YOU are? I think taking a break sound like a very good idea!

He’s going to have to grow up and learn that we can’t always have everything we want in life. We have to make choices with limited time and limited resources. We have to accommodate other people’s needs, rights and desires. We have to compromise. And when the courts make a ruling, we have to comply! He seems to have the idea that these realities don’t apply to him. Every conversation you describe with him amounts to you saying ‘this is how life is, and these are your options’ and him saying ‘but I don’t want it to be that way!’

I’m sorry. It sounds like you’re keeping your equilibrium through all this, though. Good for you.
 

Tired out

Well-Known Member
SWOT..how about blocking his number for 3 days. He won't know, it will just ring on his end like your phone isn't on. that way your adrenaline won't rush when you feel the phone vibrate, afraid to look and see who it is. That is what I did when my ds 1st moved out.
I hadn't any idea about the difference between mediator and parental coordinator. this sounds like the judge is sick of their crap and sticking it to them. Basically saying you didn't grow up so now it is going to cost you. so many times you have to hit people in the wallet to wake them up
 

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
All of you, thank you so very much. I cant begin to express my appreciation.

I know this makes no sense logically but because of how my mother hurt me, I could never do it to him, even though he can be awful. I cant leave my kids, any of them, with the legacy of a mother who disowned them. I have a kindness towards Bart...even if he suffers because he cant feel kindness's toward others. I wont deny him. He can be cruel but I want to make sure I dont act in kind. A cruel mother follows you a lifetime. I cant do it.

Bart loves me as much as he can love. There are limits here, except with his son....then he goes too far and treats him inappropriately (explanation below). To me it is not about how much he loves me. I have more love from others than a person deserves. I dont lack any, never feel unloved. It is about my loving HIM and how I continue to keep the love going regardless of how he can act toward me. And anyone.

At the same time I do balance my time with him and vent here. And sometimes to my therapist. And, yes, he is narcicistic. And yes he is one who has many gifts, yet if you heard him speak he would tell you he is the most unlucky person on earth because he has to fight for his own kid. And nobody has it that bad. Nobody. Now he doesnt really have to fight for his son. He has 50/50. But he cant control his ex and the (this is him talking) horrible things she does to him and his son. There is a black cloud over his head. Blah blah, blah.

Copa he refuses to see his life as any better than your son sees his. Although I am sure you find it as ridiculous as I do, my son believes his life is that of a cursed man and there is nothing good in his life. Isnt that pathetic,? And he does have girlfriends but he cant keep them because they are only useful for as long as they can serve his high needs. His relationships are all about him. He is not in love with these women. I pray he never marries again. I pray becsuse of the women.

To the poster who asked if he ever asks how I am or how his ailing father is, NO. It is all about him. I am aware how odd this is. I have three other adult kids who àre full of kindness and love and a husband whom is still my greatest love and my best friend.

The contrast is striking.

I do not truly thinks he realizes that he makes his own self unhappy...that it isnt God throwing lightening bolts at him. That he throws his own lightnening bolts at himself. I don't believe he is self aware about his self centeredness. Many girlfriends csll him out on his lack of interest in them. He hangs up on them, blocks them, and is in a huff that they lied about him. But they arent lying.

The parental coordinator is a necessity. These two parents are tearing this little boy, my grandson, in half. Of late I see my son making the mistake of expecting this little boy to act as a peer, his friend and confident. J. is terrified of his physical mom snd crazed stepdad. Then he comes for relief from that with my son who never even yells at him and throws expensive electronics at him, anything he wants. But he also tells him about the legal crap and grown up problems he should be protected from. He shares his legal problems with his young son! He talks to him like a full grown peer. This started this year and it makes me sad. When I bring up that its not appropriate he doesnt see it.

Honestly, I dont like to even tell my grown kids if I have a problem. They have their own stuff. IIdont want them to worry about me. And my grandson is a ten year old little boy. And there is nothing I can do to soften his life. They are fifteen hours away. I would love to get him for a summer snd show him Grandparent love, but Barts ex wouldnt allow it and I get that. So it can hurt my heart.

But I do take long time outs from Bart and bask in the wonder of my blessings. I have learnedl to marinate myself in the goodness of my life. My girls are beyond amazing, Sonic is truly the greatest gift from God, my granddaughter is my heart, my husband is and always will always be the great love of my life and such a wonderful friend. I have good friends, a life purpose and my dogs who fill me with happiness.

I dont always focus on difficult son unless things heat up, like now, then I have all you great people for venting. In general I feel very lucky. I am able to seperate my Bart life with my loving life. In some way I truly believe everyone who has ever been in this life with me is for the evolution of my soul and my future lives.

Thanks for all the great support.

Love and light!
 
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Lil

Well-Known Member
This is not a mediator. This is a Parental Coordinator and they are ex Judges and attornies who have LEGAL POWER to make decisions between the two since they can never come to a concensus. So this is much more serious. A mediator is NOT legally binding. This is like still being in court.
More like binding arbitration. Truthfully, I'd never heard of a Parental Coordinator and I'm in the same state! It is not a position created by statute like a Guardian ad Litem. It appears that certain Circuit Courts have developed this program under local court rules (which is allowed by statute). I did a quick google search and found this: http://stlcountycourts.com/pdf/FC/FCparentingguide.pdf

Other local circuit courts may vary a bit, but it's kind of just a 3rd party that will make decisions if the parents have a dispute. Dad wants to do A. Mom wants to do B. P. C. can order them to do A, B, or C and that's what they have to do or be in dragged back in front of what would be a very unhappy judge.
It would be an absolutely exhausting job.

Because I know how it feels to be rejected by your mother, I just can not cut off my son as long as he loves and needs me and he does. He has said things that make me not feel safe alone with him but he is far away and I will never be alone with him. So talking to him feels like the right thing to do....but taking breaks sounds ok too. And not pushing my other family to engage with him also seems right.
Dear, you are doing what feels right in your heart. So it is right. That simple.

But he also tells him about the legal crap and grown up problems he should be protected from. He shares his legal problems with his young son!
He's giving his ex all the ammunition she needs. That crap needs to stop. :( Judges HATE that stuff!

And yes he is one who has many gifts, yet if you heard him speak he would tell you he is the most unlucky person on earth because he has to fight for his own kid. And nobody has it that bad. Nobody. Now he doesnt really have to fight for his son. He has 50/50. But he cant control his ex and the (this is him talking) horrible things she does to him and his son. There is a black cloud over his head. Blah blah, blah.
How sad. He could have such a good life is he just pulled his head out of his ... :kickme:
 

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Lil. The Judge is tired of both of them but he doesnt really know about the crap that goes on in their respective homes. My sons attorney almost dumped him and he had to plead with him not to withdraw from the case. Part of that was my ex husband calling his office to yell about the bills and in the pricess he insulted this very good attorney telling him he should have closed the case by now. He had to call to apoligize too. A real clown show.

In the past my son did not involve J. in adult things. Lately he is using him to do this or that in Moms house and J. is very loyal to my son. He loves to conspire with him and his mom has no idea. He is further using J. when my ex husband asks Bart about money. He will put J. on the phone to ask if money is more important than him.

Appalling.

When Bart was being a good father I could at least be grateful for that. Now I think he has crossed a line. But ex and her husband scare J. and are as violent with him as they can be without leaving marks. So the poor kid clings to my son. Its sad for him. And it makes me angry inside. But I have no good options here. No options at all really.

Thanks again for explaining. Very appreciated.
 

Elsi

Well-Known Member
SWOT, I hope when the heat of the custody battle is over, Bart comes to his senses. Unfortunately, these things have a way of bringing out the worst in everyone involved. My heart goes out to poor J.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Bart comes to his senses. Unfortunately, these things have a way of bringing out the worst in everyone involved.
The thing is this: Bart sought out this ex or at least, was receptive to her. What this means is that he is comfortable being in relationship with somebody who is impossible and dangerous and resistant, however noxious this relationship is. It means he can constantly blame something external to himself and not have to feel his own feelings.

Now there is another way to look at this: that all of us can get addicted to this kind of toxic relationship that triggers in us a reflexive, defensive and stereotypical way of being rather than living from our center which is loving and embracing and reciprocal.

Bart keeps trying to contain his mother who keeps relating to him from her maternal love and tries to get her to act towards him in a way that justifies more of the same controlling behavior that he is comfortable with. Which is to say he keeps wanting to turn SWOT into somebody he can blame and defend against. And she just as surely keeps loving him. This is why it is so hard. I think Bart is trying to heal through SWOT, but part of his way to heal is to keep trying the same old defenses. They call this either working through or repetition compulsion I think.

So, what I am coming to accept what Elsi is writing. That all of us are triggered by our circumstances. We may have sought out a relationship to love and in the process we ended up somewhere where the worst of us came up...and we had to work that through until we got in touch again with that in us that is true and strong.

I guess I believe that all of us are the same in this, with that potential to reconnect with ourselves and others. Whether or not we do it in this lifespan, is another thing.

Thank you for the opportunity to think this through.
 
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ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
Bart isnt trying to heal. He doesnt know anything is wrong. He doesnt blame me at all for his situation. He blames me for not saying the right things. These are the things he has told me to say because they make him feel better. Half the time I forget his list. Also I am sorry.. .if you call me up to talk for hours then I am going to say what I think is right. I dont like to be told what I have to say or cant say. Especially for hour long talks. These long talks to him mean I am supporting him. To not do it and to do it any way other than saying the stuff he likes, even though his mantras dont help him AT ALL, is not supporting him.

I have been doing this for five years, since ex ran off and took him to court. For the ten years he was married to ex she kept him away from me, and J too, so I heard from him maybe once a month.

I am tired of the games. This feels a lot like when I got totally tired of my sister, the cop calling, and decided to myself to break contact after my father passed away. But I dont see myself totally disconnecting from my son no matter what.

I do see myself being less and less compliant to what he wants me to say and therefore being less valuable to him so that he wont call me so often. I would be good with once a month again.

In the meantime I am going to set my phone on vibrate, and not put Bart in front of my other kids. His request that I do that is insane and it will never happen.

My hub and I and other kids have full lives. It is too bad that my oldest doesnt but in all honesty he doesnt want to badly enough or he would get help. He doesnt need my support, as he says it is.. Thats what he calls our relationship... "support" ...but I dont know if it even has a name. Insanity?

I know I feel a strong desire to keep us at once a month now. I dont want a part of this anymore. My life is basically peaceful and content....and then he calls and I need to keep those calls far apart.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Bart isnt trying to heal.
I believe everybody has in them the potential to heal. The verb "trying" is not apt here. But I believe that the potential to heal is present in everybody at every second of life if we avail ourselves of it. The healing impulse is always there. It is like the Chinese character that at once means crisis and opportunity.

I agree with you SWOT. To keep allowing Bart to control you is to vote against his potential to heal.
These long talks to him mean I am supporting him.
I would feel the same as you. He is trying to make you into a thing. Like a foot massager. Or a back scratcher. He wants you to serve a function. He is not seeing you as a person.

He does things to you that make you feel pain. He is indifferent.

Of course you must NOT TOLERATE this. Everybody is in agreement with this.

It is very similar to my son and me. These adult men try to define the relationship as that which they need, they want. We are present to them only if we function in ways that serve them. This is not a relationship. Or not a healthy relationship.
 

Elsi

Well-Known Member
Also I am sorry.. .if you call me up to talk for hours then I am going to say what I think is right. I dont like to be told what I have to say or cant say. Especially for hour long talks. These long talks to him mean I am supporting him. To not do it and to do it any way other than saying the stuff he likes, even though his mantras dont help him AT ALL, is not supporting him.
Agree with you here! He can't control both his side of the conversation and yours - if he doesn't like what you have to say he can talk to someone else!
 

ForeverSpring

Well-Known Member
Copa your son is nicer. Or he was.

I guess anyone can heal. Even my dad was nicer in his later years. But I mean LATER. I sort of think you have to want things to change before they do.

Copa Bart sees EVERYONE as an object...as a means to an end for him, even his son whom he truly loves and I think he loves me the best he knows how. It is not the same love I get from the rest of my family. Actually they feel like two families. Bart is one dysfunctional family and the rest are my amazing Hallmark family.

I know I need to keep my time on the phone with Bart short and sweet and not about his case. The case is DONE. Now he has to deal with the results whether he likes it or not. It was a fair ruling in my eyes. I wont second guess the decision for hours with him.

When my hub and I first bought our RV I figured we would drive down and see Bart a lot now.

What was I thinking????

Well, Bart wasnt in a big crisis then and was not this intense and I wanted to see my grandson. Hub was never that excited to do that but he would have....for me.

This won't happen now. Maybe drop by for a day on our way elsewhere. A few hours with hub by my side. Maybe.

Right now I am looking more forward to traveling in 2019 with my hub, visiting Princess, then driving down south to enjoy the winter with other northern RV snowbirds :). No lots of St. Louis stops.

Thank you as always for your intelligent feedback.
.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Copa your son is nicer. Or he was.
My son is no longer the person he was. He was the kindest and most loving of children. People experience him as kind. They think it is M and I who are the problem. We must be because J is so wonderful. Until eventually J shows what he has hidden beneath his well-educated, polite, warm and kind exterior. More and more he is living from this hidden part, which is selfish, reactive and manipulative.

He will have to choose who he wants to be.

M today is talking about J coming back. He says it will soon be wet and cold where he is and he will be wanting to come home to the apartment. M is working hard there to get it ready for J to come back.

I said to him: I do not want him back. I do not want to live like that any more. J does not even give 5%. Even 5% is too much for him to give. Actually, give is the wrong word. All we asked is that he consider our point of view 5% and how we experience what he does.

M said: You are his mother. All I am saying is that we need to prepare for when he calls, when he comes back. We do not have to decide upon anything but we need to have options.

I am filled with dread. I had told my son: you need a program. I believe that if we accept him back without his having done one thing to help himself (I know M will require he be clean of drugs, but is that enough? Not to me. 15 days to clear the marijuana. If that is all he is using. But how does anybody change in 15 days? I guess part of me wants to think like M, that suffering could motivate J to want to change. But once he comes back, the motivation to change ends, unless there is a real deep pivot. A change in orientation.

So. I guess I will try to put this in the back of my brain. Let M get ready. And leave myself in neutral focused upon myself.

Thanks for sharing your thread, SWOT.
 
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