difficult child 2 reacted violently with my niece...help

[DramaQueenLucy]

I am very upset with difficult child 2 he got angry and acted impulsively with my niece, 5 y/o, who was spending the night tonight. difficult child 2 had taken her pillow and was teasing her. She jumped on his back playing. She fell off his back and on to the couch. He got mad and put the pillow on her face and pushed it. I got there within seconds and he stopped. He tried to make excuses for his behavior but I sent him to my room to talk. Then I explained to him that he could have hurt her he is 3 times her size and he did feel bad. I told him that it was unacceptable behavior and that he is to never put his hand or anything else on anyone unless it is in self defense. This is the first time he has done anything like this I am in shock that he would do such a thing he really could have hurt her and was doing it in anger! He did punish himself to his room for the night and is now sleeping but that doesn't change anything. I have no idea how to handle this one....help!

 

[Marguerite]

It was impulsive, it was angry and it sounds like it was very frightening. I can't advise you, because I wasn't there and I don't know how well he got the message that this was a dangerous thing to do.

Niece is too young to know what is dangerous andwhat isn't. So, in a way, is difficult child 2. The trouble is, he IS bigger. If he were an extra-large 5 year old, what would you do? How would you handle tis? How would you prevent a recurrence?

I think the best thing you can do, is to prevent recurrences. YOu can't judge a difficult child by his chronological age. Instead, you need to keep in mind that ongoing supervision is needed, until you are confident that a certain level of social responsibility has been reached.

For example - difficult child 3 loves to go bike-riding. His friend (10 years old) invited him to go fishing with a group of 10 year olds. difficult child 3 is 15. Why on earth would I not let him go?

There was no adult with them, this was just a geroup of boys, decent kids really, hanging out together. Surely I could leg difficult child 3 go with them? They don't tease him, they don't bully him.

I didn't let him go alone. Instead, I went with them but made myself useful by buying some bait and having some tools with me. I stayed out of as much of the social interaction as I could, but I was glad I was there because a few times difficult child 3 began to get upset because he was misunderstanding some of the interactions with the other boys. If I hadn't been there, difficult child 3 might have got angry and started a fight, or he might have managed to hold his temper but been miserable and also not learned anything. An example - I had bought a packet of cheap lures. I gacve one to one of the boys. When we were leaving, and the other boys had given up fishing and swimming instead, difficult child 3 began to make a big fuss about wanting the lure back. We had other lures, this was simply a matter of not wanting to lose something that I had brought, and which therefore belonged to our family.
If I hadn't been there, it could have been a nasty scene. Instead, we were able to leave, and leave without the lure. Over time since, difficult child 3 has been able to accept that it's OK to have left the lure with the boy, who will get a lot more use out of it that we would.
Because I tagged along, a potential negative experience was able to be identified, avoided and even turned into a positive one.

difficult child 3 is 15, but as far as social capabilities go, I can't let him wander off on his own without putting in a lot of careful checks and rules. In other words, he's 5 years old, socially. Very vulnerable. And so are any other people who try to interact with him, not knowing this.

SO what I suggest - depending on your own knowledge of your son, of course - is maintain a high level of supervision and also use your ability t intervene before a problem escalates, to turn them into positive teaching opportunities.

A difficult child is, by definition, not normal. Normal rules don't apply. We are needed to be much more hands-on. It's not good, it's reality.

I hope this can help.

Marg

 

[BusynMember]

in my opinion your son new what he was doing was extremely dangerous. He's 11 years old--he knew the consequences of what he was doing and couldn't stop himself. Doesn't matter if he acted impulsively...many fatalities happen in anger.

Please get him re-evaluated. in my opinion that is more than ADHD. You want to protect your precious child and those who are with him. Have him see a neuropsychologist.

Sounds scary (((Hugs)))

 

[smallworld]

Colleen, I personally don't think we can possibly judge whether your difficult child 2 knew or didn't know how dangerous his actions were toward your niece. As Marg pointed out, he's 11, but difficult children are typically considered 30 percent younger than their chronological age.

Having said that, I would strongly recommend seeking professional advice about the situation from someone who knows your difficult child 2 personally. Is a child psychiatrist involved? How about a therapist? If so, both should be consulted to see how the situation should be interpreted and what should be done to handle it.

I also agree with the recommendation to have him evaluated by a neuropsycologist if you haven't already taken that step. Neuropsychologists can be found at children's and university teaching hospitals.

 

[DramaQueenLucy]

He sees a child psychologist once a week. The neuropsychologist that is over the doctor that did difficult child 2 testing is going to look over the results of the last testing but I have also been calling to try to find another neuropsychologist in my area. I called the Tulsa Autism Society for help their director is going to call me back on Monday because the women that I talked to never heard of a neuropsychologist doctor....ugh I do think he needs to be re-tested.

I was honestly in shock over this behavior, it was so out of no where and scary. I plan on talking to difficult child 2 more today about what happened. I now have some questions for difficult child and what to see how he reacts to them but before I do that I need to add this to my difficult child 2 diary.

 

[smallworld]

Who is doing your difficult child 2's medications?

 

[Marguerite]

Kids do impulsive things, especially when sufficiently provoked. A difficult child can be mor easily provoked, but even a easy child can be provoked to the point of surprising and dangerous violence.

A tale against myself - when I was 11 and just in high school, I was a lonely kid with few friends. I had one good friend who I really relied on for support. But I was a nerdy kid and a bit of a goody-goody. NOT cool. Then I got the unpopular job of ringing the school handbell when it was time to come into class after recess. My friend ditched me, very messily, very publicy, very nastily. I had the handbell in my hand and I slammed her with it in the head. Pure impulse. I instantly regretted it but I can still remember just how angry I was. In my life, I have only very rarely been that angry. A blood pressure reading at that instant would have been very interesting. I did get yelled at by a teacher but amazingly, no further repercussions. Maybe my ex-friend realised she had not exactly been blameless in provoking me. Maybe the teacher talked to other staff and found out a bit more. I don't know. I very nearly walked out of school and walked home, even though it would have been about 20 miles and truancy was unthinkable to me.

My point is - I was a easy child (pretty much), a fariyl conservative, law-abiding kid who was shy and a mouse. But I had been provoked in a matter of seconds to extreme violence.

It can happen to any kid, with enough provocation. A difficult child needs far less. And also a difficult child is likely to be far less mature, therefore needs supervision at a much higher level.

Forget the calendar. How does the child function?

Back to my story - I was not punished further, but I put my own management program in place to ensure no chance of repetition. I dealt with it by avoiding all contact with ex-friend as well as the 'friends' we had always sat with for lunch. Instead I stayed on my own, sat alone, read books and generally avoided associating with anyone likely to make me angry. I made new friends although they were the quieter, nerdy kids who were also loners. I found myself bullied a lot more, physically bashed, but I never hit anyone even in self-defence. However, I chose to not accept being bullied either, and insisted on reporting it directly to the principal every time, even though it meant (for a while) getting beaten up even more. Eventually the bullies were reported enough times to have earned first a suspension, then expulsion. A year or so later, we moved and I went to a new school. Very happy there, loads of friends, people I still am in touch with. Which all told me it wasn't me, it was them.

But I have never forgotten - the propensity for dangerous violence is inside every one of us. As I have grown older, I've learnt to control the anger and have successfully channeled it. I had to grow to a certain level of maturity to achieve this. It took time, it took experience and it would have been faster if I'd had support and supervision (partly to protect me form being over-provoked, partly to help me channel my anger and partly to protect others from my anger if it ever got out of control again).

That said - I do agree that this iincident needs to be noted, talked about with the top medical expert in your son's team and plans put in place to prevent any chance of recurrence. It IS dangerous. He needs to learn to control his anger, but he simply may not yet have the capability. A plan needs to be put in place to help him learn to recognise when he's getting out of control and to help himself with strategies to keep himself and others safe.

Marg

 

[BusynMember]

in my opinion only (and take all of them for what they're worth)...at 11, even if he is immature he knows that smothering somebody, especially a little person, can lead to death. in my opinion again I believe most five year olds know that. If he does this behavior, in my opinion once again he truly needs a re-evaluation and I suspect a neuropsychologist is best. He may not just have a psychiatric problem...there might be more to it and he should be tested on all fronts.
I had all sorts of problems as a child and would, in this day and age, probably have been diagnosed with mood disorder/ADHD/ODD/ABCD/you name it...lol. I was so immature at 12 that my preferred entertainment was still dolls and playing HOuse and I had no interest in boys. In spite of that, I knew very well what would hurt or kill somebody. If he DOESN'T realize that, by age 11 (or even age 6), then I think that could even be a bigger problem than if he does. You're lucky he did it to a family member's child and not somebody else. To be honest, if a child had tried to do that to my five year old, I may well have called the police or CPS no matter what the child's diagnosis is. My point is, this could turn ugly if he does it again, to a stranger.
I would take it very seriously. in my opinion it's better to be safe than sorry. Some medications can make kids more violent, if they are misdiagnosed. At any rate, I think it's best to get a fresh look at your child...from somebody with a different type of diagnostic style. Good luck!

 

[DramaQueenLucy]

Who is doing your difficult child 2's medications?

A child psychiatrist, is taking care of them. We see him this coming Thursday along with his psychologist.
This morning I talked to difficult child about what happened last night. He says that he doesn’t know why he did that only that he felt angry right before it happened but doesn't know why he did it

 

[DramaQueenLucy]

This isn't the first time that he has gotten violent but this is by far the worst it has ever been. There has been other incidents with difficult child 1 and more that happened at school a few years ago. One that seems notable happened when he was just 3 y/o that one he just seemed to loss his temper and wouldn't stop kicking and screaming at an older child. The older kid just left the room and difficult child calmed down pretty quickly.

 

[Marguerite]

Some medications can make kids more violent, if they are misdiagnosed.

Even if they're not misdiagnosed.

Good point, MWM. And I do agree - maybe time for a re-think on a number of fronts including re-evaluation. It is important to do the utmost to prevent any possibly recurrence.

He got angry - why, to this extent? Could you get him to a therapist who could help him work on this to find ways to

1) recognise the onset signs of this anger;

2) help him find ways to de-fuse or walk away;

3) really bring it home to him just how dangerous (and final) this could have been.

It's good that he recognises that he was angry. He needs to learn that even extreme anger doesn't excuse or justify violence to anyone, especially to a much younger child. And until he learns this, he needs to be constantly supervised.

Marg

 

[lizzie09]

Colleen.
So sorry that this has happened to you...its hard to know how much supervision our GFGFs need.
I think Margs post make absolute sense and are truly wonderful.
These kids are easier to provoke and much much younger than their age, Maybe we wiill always have to supervise them to some extent sadly.

 

[DramaQueenLucy]

He goes to the therapist on Thursday I am going to tell her about this and I am also looking to get him another evaluation this time I hope a full one.

I have to say that I am very effected by this and am sad, confused and a bit depressed because of this turn in events. All that I have done all morning is look up more and more information...trying to figure this out. I have sent e-mails to 2 hospitals and found more information on psychs in my area.

 

[BusynMember]

Colleen,
A gentle question: How is he with animals? Is he kind to them or has he been rough or hurt any? Did he ever play with fire? Urinate in weird places?

 

[DaisyFace]

Colleen--

My own difficult child has extremely poor impulse control....and from what I understand, impulse-control issues are common in individuals with ADHD. And from my point of view, it really doesn't matter whether difficult child regrets her action the next day, or can talk it out with a therapist later in the week, or can give me a textbook answer as to why putting her hands on another is wrong--she will do it again.

And so my own solution is very strict supervision. Even though she is nearly fourteen, I cannot trust her to conduct herself with the maturity level of an average fourteen-year-old.

Until your son is really under control, and has a handle on his own impulses....you must act as though this will happen again and you must be prepared to intervene at a moment's notice....for everyone's safety.

--DaisyF

 

[DramaQueenLucy]

difficult child 2 is pretty good with animals he hasn't hurt any of our furbabies but he will pester the **** out of them like he always wants Princess to go to bed with him or lay with him and will pick her up when she has "warned" him that she doesn't want to be bothered.
No on the other 2 questions.

He was scared that he would hurt someone else last night and even today hasn't wanted to be alone with any of the little kids at the b-day party we went too....not that I would have let him but still. The one thing that keeps getting me is how very sensitive he is with everything...the littlest thing will hurt his feelings or will make him angry.

I have compiled a list of places to call tomorrow to see about testing. I hope that someone can get him in soon. I feel about at my breaking point and I have to get it together because I have his IEP on Tues..