difficult child is verbally mean...how to handle this?

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by PlainJane, Oct 6, 2014.

  1. PlainJane

    PlainJane Every dog has his day....

    So difficult child is 7. Officially diagnosed Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and ADHD. Though the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) diagnosis is being greatly questioned at this point. doctor believes there may be a personality disorder going on but he's too young to diagnose. He also has issues with anxiety and some Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) traits. We have tried medications to help with those, but he actually had bed wetting with both, which is apparently a rare but possible side effect. Bed wetting stopped as soon as the medication was stopped. We are going this week to have him started on something to control the impulsivity. He is not as physically impulsive as he is verbally.

    Sometimes the verbal impulsivity is not mean (but its still his way of being like "screw you, don't tell me what to do"). He calls out in class, talks non stop and if he is told to stop talking, he just keeps going. If the teacher is reading a story, she will tell the kids not to ask questions or share their thought until the end. difficult child just calls out and starts talking about what he thinks on the story while they are still reading.

    However, this also has a mean side. He says whatever he wants when he's mad. He's just down right rude. He has GREAT difficulty making friends because of this. Really he has no good friends, just a few kids that basically ignore his verbal abuse or take it. I feel bad for his "friends".

    difficult child can be told NOTHING without a nasty remark back. He has serious control issues and cannot handle any form of interaction where he is not 100% in control and the boss. This morning he and our middle (normal, wonderful) son were going outside to wait for the bus. I opened the door and said, "Its cold guys, put your coats on." Middle child put on his coat. difficult child said very sarcastically, "Oh I forgot my coat on this bright sunny day." There was a pause, he looked at me and I knew he was being nasty, but I ignored it. So he continued, "I don't need a coat today, you're stupid its hot out"....

    At which point the new "discipline" the doctor has suggested is to send him to his room or take away bed time. Yeah, ok, because he now knows if he is nasty at a time he cant sit in his room, like before the bus comes, he gets bed time taken away. And he ends up in bed at like 5pm because he just doesn't give a crap about any consequences. I've tried *everything* and I mean everything. He doesn't care. Kids have physically attacked him at school because of his mouth (which is a whole other issue). I got a call last week that he was asking a little girl about if she skipped a grade and she said no, but he insisted she did. He kept badgering her even after she asked him to stop. She started crying and so both were sent to the guidance councilor. Its like he has this weird combination of not being able to just shut up with enjoying getting others upset. Like I said, he has been hit in school by kids who have told him to leave them alone and he refuses.

    And please do not picture an aspie kid that doesn't know better. I've watched him. He waits for a reaction, like today. He waited for my reaction, and when his sarcastic remark didn't get it, he continued. This behavior occurs whenever he is "controlled". Or what he perceives as control. If the teacher telling him he cant talk, he's going to talk.

    Our social worker got to see this in action during our last visit. It was time to go and I told him to clean up, but he had to finish his building tower (sounds like Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) right? No...) so to SHOW them what we are dealing with, I then said to him he is not allow to clean up until his building is done....and he stopped and started cleaning up and began barking at me that its time to clean up and I don't know what I'm talking about...and wait so I said, "good its time to clean up, so clean up the blocks"...and he started to argue he had to finish and went back to building! And the social worker saw what we've been trying to tell them. He must do the opposite of what he is told, he must argue everything. It was never about finishing the tower or cleaning up, Its about he must call the shots.

    The issue is, his verbal comments at home are rude and just not acceptable here. And he is punished basically 24/7, we are at the point that he spends most of his time in his room so he is not with the family talking rudely. I don't know what to do. To be honest, I was raised that the last most consequence was a spanking, and I've tried that. He doesn't care. Its useless on him and I'm tired of people telling me all he needs is a good spanking. And yet its like you can't *tell* anyone you've tried spanking your kids because omg that's so wrong now. When we were growing up, you were shamed if you didn't spank your kids...you just cant win either way. I was terrified of getting spanked as a kid. I believe if that won't deter difficult child, nothing will.

    We tried positive reinforcement. He doesn't care. He responses to nothing. Seriously. Nothing. I've had some worries that there is a deeper mental illness that is not yet diagnosed.

    We go back to the doctor this week, but they keep insisting that even kids like him will respond to consistent consequences (like being put in his room or going to bed early). I'm convinced kids like difficult child would die before they bend to listen to anyone.

    Anyone else deal with this??
  2. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Who diagnosed him? Was he tested? Any early chaos in his infant-three years? Sounds like a hodgepodge of possible issues and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) could well be one. Actually have you considered taking him to a neuropsychologist, which is NOT a pediatric neurologist? Any psychiatric problems on either side of his DNA tree (even if he never met bio. father, he is half his father's DNA). These can give you clues to what might be going on with him. Aspie and Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) are now the same in the DSM and have a lot in common...they are both autistic spectrum disorder. Only difference, according to DSM, is that Asperger's kids did not have a speech delay when younger, but they all have trouble expressing themselves correctly and with speech pragmatics, if he indeed is on the spectrum...

    Sorry you had to join us, but WELCOME :)
  3. PlainJane

    PlainJane Every dog has his day....

    Thank you for your reply. Our life is very normal and boring. husband and I met dated, married, had 3 kids. We have a health marriage. Minimal disagreements. Nothing crazy or traumatic. Our other two kids are normal kids.

    However, both husband and I have family history of mental illness and personality disorder. My mother is borderline, and I also think undiagnosed bipolar. My aunt is diagnosed bipolar. husband's sister and grandmother are narcissistic personality disorder. He and I can from families of origin with a lot of dysfunction, so that has been the big reason we have made or lives rather vanilla. No drama, no drinking, no partying (he and I grew up with partying type parents, unstable home environments).

    My son, from my personal experiences, has very similar traits to Borderline and NPD, but both those can be similar in ways too. I hate to think that the awful people in my and DHs family passed their genes on him and now he has to suffer the rest of his life, and probably never form healthy relationships.
  4. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Yep, I have the same sort of stuff in my family of origin. My one biological son got a chunk of it and we then decided to adopt our other kids. And bio. son is 36 and still has the issues we passed along genetically. However I really think he would have been worse if he had lived in a crazy enviornment so he was spared a little.

    Your son is too young for any diagnosis of a personality disorder. I'd just take him for help ad do what I could. One day at a time...one moment at a time...unfortunately, it isn't true that all kids respond to consistent consequences, but it can't hurt.Do your best and try not to worry too far into the future. Hugs!!!! :)
  5. GuideMe

    GuideMe Active Member

    Oh my god, I know a little kid in my life who is just like this and now I am certain that it's not all in my head now!
  6. Confused

    Confused Active Member

    My son also has ADHD,along with sleep issues and had a sleep test done which showed his aggression. doctors want to sort out ADHD and the medications then add his ODD ( make sure) and Im thinking Bipolar and or something else. My son has not gotten at trouble ( well talking out of turn at times or not turning in H.W getting out of seat yes but thats it) at school like your son, but at home, stores with family and friends yes trouble.. One minute my son is happy and the most amazing child ever, then something makes him mad-anything and he is bossy, defiant, angry, demanding,violent and says he wants to kill us or wishes we were dead, calls us dumbo and idiot etc. He has gotten verbally mean with family and some neighborhood kids too. Always blames others too, times outs never work with my son, going to his room rarely works, spankings, been there just makes him even more angrier and frankly I hated spanking him, really makes to sense to spank a child. I grew up that way to, been told only if I this or that. I get it!!!

    Im so sorry your going through this. Is your son on any medications or diet changes? Hows he sleep? Is he ever "sorry" he says these things or is it forced apologies? Hugs and hang in there.. Have you tried taking everything away and have him earn it back?
  7. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    You could well be describing my difficult child! It was an is an ongoing battle. One thing I've learned is to not even try to fight every battle. In the beginning we were consequencing him a lot but to be honest it wasn't helping. So what did help us? First reading The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Plus lots of therapy (that for a long time didn't seem to be sinking in at all-but we are now seeing the positive effects of it) and he has an amazing psychiatrist that has helped us to find medications that really help him (however, that was for the violence along with the impulsiveness).

    It's a long road and it's difficult but there is hope. If someone had told me that my difficult child would be doing as well as he is (still a long, long way from perfect and still mean and nasty-but only at home for the most part), I would never have believed it. There were many times I wanted to skip therapy but we stayed the course and I really believed it helped.
  8. Malika

    Malika Well-Known Member

    Hi PlainJane. Yes, some of this sounds familiar to me, too. My son is not really calculatingly rude - with him, it's more heat of the moment, uncontrolled impulse stuff - but there's a shared theme of needing/wanting to be in control and of the child feeling somehow humiliated or reduced by the adult's attempt to control them.

    From the outside (imperfect position!), it sure does seem as though punishment and consequences are only going to make this situation worse. Because then your son feels he needs to fight back even more, be even more oppositional. Vicious circle. At the base, his self esteem is probably really shot, this is the maladaptive way he tries to pump it up.

    Is there any chance of therapy?