Dupers delight

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by newstart, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    I have been avoiding my 35 year old daughter most of the week. I have talked on the phone with her and texted with her but have not gone anywhere or done anything with her. She lives fairly close to me and in the past we have done several things together. Even when she is not manic and on her best behavior she is draining because I know the other shoe is going to fall.

    I have been trying to avoid her then last Friday she came over after I told her I wanted to be alone, she came walking into my home like nothing happened. She was crying and telling me she wanted to make things right. One of her mottos is 'do what you want then apologize later'.

    I feel pushed into accepting her but in reality she wants to make peace so she can keep using me. I see no end in sight. I hold my chest often because my heart feels like it is shattered. Being around her makes me feel bipolar, I love her deeply, I can't stand her behavior. I screamed this to her yesterday at the top of my lungs. I try to hold my composture but my grief and disgust is overwhelming.
    My husband got a new demanding job and is tried a lot. He is so disgusted with her he does not even want to talk with her. I don't want to burden him with it anymore.
    The most excrusiating thing for me to come to grips with is that if she stays manic constantly she becomes a psychopath.. It hurts me to the core to even type that out but in reality it is what it is.
    I am going into retirement age and I do not want to constantly be having to protect myself from a preditor especially my own daughter.
    When I was young my grandmother and I had true sisterhood. I felt so wonderful to have someone that loved me that much walking on this life joureny with me, she had my back and I had hers, loving her back and having fun with her. I know what true sisterhood feels like and I keep wanting that with my daughter, searching and trying. I have to realize each relationship is different but oh how wonderful life is when you can feel that real sisterhood. It is a gift a very special gift and I miss it so. My mother and I do not have that special bond. I have tried for years. Mom just pops off and says mean things. I told my mother that I hold the candle for both of us and each time she is mean it blows out the flame. She does not care.

    I have watch the Youtube videos on the Casey Anthony case from back in 2008. She lies and has been caught many times. I read where she is not diagnoised with any mental illness. Really? Telling gigantic lies on a regular basis in not normal behavior. I guess what really bothered me is that I see so much of Casey's behavior in my own daughter and it really scares me.

    I watched my daughter face the other day with 'dupers delight' thinking I fell for a lie. Psycopaths use dupers delight a lot thinking they are getting away with their lies and bad dealing and when they think they got away with it they get a devious smile like they are screwing you over again. Ugh. I just can't have it anymore. My eyes are sunken in and I look horrible. If she was not my daughter I would not have anything to do with her. I may have to muster up the strength to blow her off for a while again.
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  2. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I can relate to your post. My bio-family is riddled with mental illness. Over time I became accustomed to being treated badly by my own mother, sister, daughter, all of them. It's hard not to think you are the one who is wrong in the midst of so much mental illness and broken family systems. It took years of therapy to get to a point where I was ok in my own skin.

    I saw that look on my mother and daughter, the "dupers delight" you speak of, it is horrifically insulting right down to the core of you......over many years I've removed myself from the sphere of influence of such toxic people. I have extremely limited exposure to my family.....including my daughter......it's the hardest thing I've ever done, it is not what I want, but it is what is. Accepting what I can't change has been so difficult and yet, it has freed me from the expectation that it will be any different than it is. It may be, but I can't know that.

    I'm sorry for the pain of it. I understand. There is nothing to do but let go. And, to take care of yourself. I'm so sorry.
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  3. Littleboylost

    Littleboylost On the road unwanted to travel

    Dupers delight! Seen it, have been a victim of it. Never had a name for it. So very profound.
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  4. Sam3

    Sam3 Active Member

    This sucks.

    There are probably millions of children in the world who would love our love.

    That doesn't make it better that the one I gave it to doesn't right now, but it helps me to value my heart.
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  5. Littleboylost

    Littleboylost On the road unwanted to travel

    Indeed it does suck Sam. It really does. Just heading to bed after a wonderful evening with good friends. Only one badgered me about my son. She means well so I took no offence. She just simply can't wrap her head and heart around my son being an addict. She had a lot of trouble with her son and struggled to get him on a good path. I try to explain to her that some respond, and others simply do not.

    They all still look at us with an awkward sadness and silence. It's weird. But we are getting used to it. One on one they are much easier to talk to.

    I have said that when we are out Adulting and in our own personal space for us; we prefer not to focus on or speak of our son. Most of them support this and comply.

    It does suck!
  6. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    When I have been on the receiving end of 'dupers delight' I fell as if I am face to face with the devil. I remember being so confused and in so much agony after being around my bipolar mother in law and sister in law. I went to Church and told my Priest that I think I was in company of the devil himself. I asked my Priest to do an exorcism by proxy because I think I just had a visit from the devil himself. I do not care if it is evil or ill the agony and pain is the same and something that feels that bad does not come from the Light or of God. If you ever see the face of 'dupers delight' you know you are staring the devil straight in the face. It can hurt the electrical system of your heart to the point you can feel faint.

    Yesterday we went to the spa our daughter opened after stealing our money. My husband went to see it because she said she will pay us back by Nov 15th. We both felt like we needed to vomit after we got out of there. Opening a spa should be a joyfull time, filled with fun and family support but this is plain __it.

    Today my husband and I have awful emotions. He is tried of my bickering. We both do not feel well, our daughter has managed to cause imense agony yet again.
    And me with the intense feel of being on the receiving end of the never ending 'dupers delight'. This evil presence that keeps popping it's head up and making so much destruction and me being a damn idot and keep thinking that it will end, that she will not do this, that she is 35 and more mature but if I really examine myself closely and realize HER brain does not work like mine, she simply does not care or else she would not do such harmful things. In my Catholic teachings I have been taught to forgive 7 times 70 and keep loving the unlovable. I will always love her but I just can't stand what she does and I have to move forward and protect myself. Why do I go into shock when she does awful things, I know she is capable but why do I go into shock? Years ago I really thought she had changed. I saw the changes, I saw God light behind her eyes, she stayed on track, she paid her bills, she did good things, many good things for many people and then she gets in a toxic relationship and things get real bad like how they were when she was 25. I witnessed long stretches of time that she was actually good and kind. We traveled together, we did many fun things together.. If I just don't get to comfortable with the good times I will not set myself up to a preditor. I feel like she thinks, Well mom, you knew I was a snake, what do you expect? snakes bit and I will keep bitting you.
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  7. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I was raised Catholic. I don't want to debate catechism, but I think you are missing some things. I don't think that the Church intends for you to not protect yourself from those who want to harm you. There is a big difference in forgiving and forgetting. They really are 2 totally different things, even when it is your own child.

    You are acting as though when you forgive your daughter for things she has done in the past, you should allow her to do the same things over again. That simply is not rational or reasonable. You can forgive her and not hold her actions against her while not allowing her to have access to do the same thing to you again. In this case you can keep her away from your finances and even away from your home if need be to protect yourself. That is not the same as not forgiving her. When you forgive, you don't hold bitterness in your heart against her (a hard thing to do when she does it again and again, I would think). It doesn't mean you set yourself up to be victimized again.

    As her parent, you don't stop helping her learn life lessons when she reaches adulthood. You may have to teach her that even parents limit her access to them when she has taken advantage over and over. You can forgive and still control when she can see you. If you ever want her to learn not to treat you this way, you must put some boundaries in place. In fact, if you want any respect from her, you will hold those boundaries firm and even sell any possessions that your name is on, or evict her if you own the house she is living in. Or take any similar steps that you can. She will have a fit. If possible, don't allow her into your home. Keep it locked at all times, call the cops to remove her if she won't leave when you ask or if she creates a disturbance. This is called creating and enforcing a boundary, NOT being mean.

    To be perfectly frank, until you can take some steps like this, I don't think she will ever have even a glimmer of respect for you as people or as her parents. She thinks she can walk all over you like doormats. Until now she has been able to. She has treated you horribly and you have just allowed it and pretty much asked for more. There is nothing in your religion that says that you cannot protect yourself. I have actually discussed this with several priests over the years. Their position is that when a situation like this happens, of course you need to forgive. That is as much for yourself as for the person who has sinned against you. You also need to take steps to be sure that you don't set that person up to sin against you so easily again. Don't give them your credit card again, or have them hold your purse. Don't allow them to be in your home, or to drive your car if they drove it while drunk. Don't give someone a knife if they have stabbed you already. I know that seems like a silly thing to have to say, but with the message of forgiveness, and of forgiving over and over, it is easy to be confused.

    Don't ever allow your daughter into your home again. If she has keys to your home, or had them at any point in time, don't ask for the keys back. Change the locks. If you are afraid of her when she gets angry, get a security system. Why not allow her into your home, especially if she swears she has changed? Leopards don't change their spots especially after so many years of this type of behavior. It would take many years of her behaving very well and having paid back every penny she stole/borrowed over the years for me to even consider allowing her into my home. She has just shown that her only interest in being around my things is to steal from me, if she were my child that is.

    If you have an attorney, get an appointment with him in the very near future, before the Nov 15th deadline. If you don't have one, find a good attorney and get in to see him/her before then. Ask your priest to help you get an early appointment if you need to. Usually they will help if you have a real need, and you do. You need to know what the eviction laws are in your area. When she does not meet the deadline for paying you back, and she won't most likely, you need to start the eviction process.

    I know it will break your heart. If you won't follow it, don't start it. Please do NOT take her phone calls during this time. She won't have anything nice to say for any reason other than to manipulate you. Write down the total amount of debt she owes you, for college and cars and houses and everything else and keep that number everywhere so you see it when you might talk to her. Add it to her name in your contact list so when she calls you, that amount shows and you can get angry rather than listen to her. If you let her go on this deadline, if will just be another time she duped you and it will tickle her again. Especially now that she has this new fancy spa to pay for her luxuries while she has you paying for her necessities.

    I would get her out of that house as fast as I could. I would NOT give her any of the money that she has paid to date if/when I sold the house. I would consider it rent and not as payments toward a mortgage. Not unless she signed a contract that said I had to. Given that she hasn't paid her college loans and you are on the hook for them, and you are not getting any younger, you need that money to pay off her debts. She has swindled you up to this point and you need to start being smart with your money financially or she will have you in the poorhouse for your so-called golden years. You know darned well that she is NOT NOT NOT going to take care of you or pay for any nice care for you if you cannot pay for it yourself.

    If your name is on her car, I would sell it if it is possible. Ask the attorney if you can. Let her go out and get a new one with her own credit. I know this will be incredibly difficult for you. I also know she will have tantrums and tell you that you are a horrible mother, etc.... but this is the best thing you can do for her. It will teach her that her actions have consequences. It will teach her that she cannot continue to swindle people forever before consequences happen. You don't know who else she has played financial games with.

    How did she get the money to open her spa? Have you checked your credit recently? Has she used your financial information to get credit cards to charge what she needed to open the spa? If you haven't checked your credit reports recently, I suggest that you do so. Given her actions toward you so far, I would not put this past her. If she has done this, you need to contact the police rather than discuss it with her. Not to be mean to her, but because it is going to far. And because if you confront her, she may get violent or she may run before the cops can investigate and do whatever they need to do. Pressing charges for this would be out of your hands. The credit card companies would require it unless you wanted to pay for everything that she charged.

    I just had an awful thought. Given all that she has done, has she ever forged your signature? I wonder if she could have taken out a mortgage on the house she lives in to pay for her fancy spa? Of course it would be illegal as Hades, but that doesn't seem to bother her. You might want to ask a lawyer how you would check that there isn't another loan against your property. It might show up on your credit report.

    This is all a very difficult course of action. I know it may seem impossible to take all of these steps, or any of them, at this time. If nothing else, please find a counselor that you can talk to about this. Whomever you talk to (Catholic or non-religious), make sure that the counselor understands that you have spoken to your daughter over and over about her actions. You need help communicating with her in a different way, through statements about how you intend to proceed and then help following through with whatever you decide to do. If the therapist doesn't seem to be the right fit, don't feel bad about not going back. Just find another one. Sometimes it takes a few tries to find a therapist who is the right fit for you, someone you can really open up with and whose advice makes sense and you are willing to follow even when it is hard.

    I know you are not willing, able or ready to follow all or maybe even some of the things I suggest here. I beg you to please at least check your credit, change your locks, and find a therapist. And to keep coming here, of course!! It is perfectly fine if you don't choose to do any of those things though. They are my ideas and perspective. You have to do what is right for your life from your perspective.

  8. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you Susiestar for your wisdom and insight. Most all that you have written I have gone over in my head and talked about with my husband over the weekend.
    When my daughter was a little girl, she was a very sweet child. I would have seen signs of psychopathy from her. I saw when the adult onset bipolar was coming on and it was heartbreaking. I know a person is born a psychopath and some have psychopathic trailts along with bipolar and borderline disorder. I keep trying to work it out with her because in my heart I do not believe she was born a psychopath. I have studied this enough to know that while some people are manic they turn into a psychopath. But in reality ill or evil it still leaves the same type of destruction. I am also a bereaved mom, losing my only son to death so I see things on a complete different level than most people~One of the reasons it hurts past the core is that my daughter lost her brother and watched her dad and me suffer severely yet keeps on doing us wrong.

    We went several years where my daughter was paying her bills and keeping things afloat, during that time we let down our guard. I witnessed my daughter contributing and trying to do the right thing. It is my fault that I thought she had grown up and out of that awful behavior. My husband and I do not have criminal minds so I have been studying on line and coming here to get advice and support on how to stop being a victim, thank you Susiestar, for your insight and outlook and for me to take deeper action. My daughter did ok for years and then got into a toxic relationship and things are real bad again. Still NO excuse.

    Our family Priest has know our daughter since she was 2. He loves her. They have had a great relationship in the past. My daughter was a great leader for the youth programs and contributed much time and energy there. It will break his heart if I tell him the things she has done. I will seek counsel somewhere else but in reality my husband and I know what needs to be done, and we are taking steps to do it.

    My daughter drains me in the same way as my mother in law and sister in law. It is an energy spiritual drain. My husband and I say the 'Our Father' on a regular basis and that particular prayer gives us strenght. From this day forward I am going to take active steps forward to protect ourselves better.

    The arrangment for the house was that if she gets married or pays it off we transfer the title to her name or if she decides to sell, divide the costs and give her the portion she has paid into. But now things have changed. She has not paid her rent for nearly 1/2 year so we are considering her just a bad renter and getting all that money back and keeping it, charging her for the continued grief and heartache she has caused.

    There is a scene in the movie 'The color Purple' where Oprah leaves her abusive husband and sticks her hand up and say's All the crap you have given me in the past is going to come back to you'
    That is about to happen when we take all the money from the house and use it as payment for all the crap, lies and deceit she has given us. Plus the awful disrespectful man she lives with that does not know how to say thank you.
  9. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I would clue in the priest so she cannot use him to blindside you socially. Then I would figure out how to evict her and the man for nonpayment of rent. You have to go through the court, and she may trash the house in however long it takes to get the eviction through the court, but you can sue her for damages. Very few states give any weight to oral agreements regarding real estate, but you might want to consult an attorney regarding the agreement for her to buy the house. Just to protect yourselves.

    If you are on her car and her bank account, that means they are legally yours as well. I would take cash out of the bank and if she owes you anything for the car and isn't paying it, take it. Or have a repo guy do it. If she is angry at any of your relatives, especially wealthy ones that she feels somehow "owe" her something, encourage them to check their credit.

    I am glad the practical suggestions help. I have seen my bipolar ex sister in law do this stuff and brag about having done this stuff to people. I have also seen difficult children hear on the site do this kind of thing. It is ridiculous of them and I hope that someday when they come to their senses they are completely ashamed of how awful they are.

    I am so glad you have a new attitude. I hope you can hold on to it. Sometimes a change in attitude makes even the most awful situation a hundred times more bearable.
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  10. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Thank you Susiestar, Moving forward does feel good. The knowledge on how to protect myself better is also good. The knowledge that I even have to do this because of my own daughter is so overwhelmingly grieving.
  11. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    Just a public service announcement:

    I have bipolar, and even in my teens, undiagnosed, unmedicated, and raging, it NEVER occurred to me to steal from parents and/or family members (or anyone else, for that matter).

    I also used drugs during that period and didn't sell them. Just a PSA.
  12. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Hi GoingNorth, I agree just because someone has bipolar does not make them do bad things. Bipolar is a mood disorder not a make everyone miserable around you disorder. I have told my daughter this, I have also told her that the lying and stealing is a character flaw NOT bipolar. And when my daughter goes manic she is HIGH on the bipolar/psychopath spectrum. I have had people tell me that they were bipolar and I have known them for years and did not know. I have a sharp radar for most disorders and have studied them deeply, it just depends on where on the spectrum and if there are other disorders with the bipolar like Borderline (which I suspect) she has. I also have a strong radar for people using drugs, I grew up with many kids doing drugs so I have knowledge about it but I still have to say my daughter does not do them. I am not kidding myself I have done checked it out and so far no drugs or alcohol. With my daughters rage disorder if she did mix drugs or alcohol it would cause a bomb. Maybe she has enough smarts to not mess with that. She does NEED to be on medication for her bipolar but she refuses.
  13. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    She sounds more borderline to me. Raging is usually borderline. Bipolar disorder is different. Once they are stable they are perfectly nice uless they arent nice people. Borderline is all around nasty with periods where they seem nicer, which gives us hope, but they eventually steal, lie and abuse again and medications dont change that. Bipolar is a mood disorder. Borderline is a personality problem that is very hard to treat and requires intensive therapy and compliance. It is ulikely she can have a sisterhood relationship with anyone.

    Do take care.
  14. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Somewhereoutthere, my daughter was once diagnosed with ADHD and anxiety. Then again with bipolar. I have seen my daughter be nice for a while. She can be loving and kind and mean as ever if she thinks she is going through a break up. I read where borderline is more about cutting and suicide attemps. I think there is narcisstic behaviors too. And in the end it does not matter if it is evil or illness the results are the same, major destruction. Wishing the best for all of us.
  15. Littleboylost

    Littleboylost On the road unwanted to travel

    Ahh yes the degrees of MH and mixed disorder. My niece is BiPolar (BP) and also now diagnosed boarder line personality disorder as well. She drugs, steals, lies and cheats her way through life. Had a baby on drugs. He was taken from her. He is severely developmentally delayed. Sad state of affairs.
  16. Lou lou

    Lou lou New Member

    I have been thinking a lot about this ‘duper’s delight’ look. My daughter got very mad at me when she was in some fight with her boyfriend. I can’t remember what they were mad about however, she has always reacted by being abusive to me. This particular morning when she was upset she looked at me from about a couple feet away and raised her arm up jesturing that she was going to smash her 600 dollar phone on the floor because she was angry. I teared up because I was and am broke and still helping her and still owed money on that phone! Also, I was letting her and her boyfriend live with me “until they got it together”. Slam!! She smashed the phone on the floor, I will never forget the look on her face. Delight, duper’s delight. Thanks you so much for sharing.sorry I rambled on so much. Your story just really hits home. I really appreciate this forum it’s amazing how I can get so enlightened by reading what someone else is going through and learning how they felt and deal with it.
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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  17. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

    "Duper's Delight..."Omg. What an interesting and accurate phrase. A friend of mine whom I am deeply conflicted with right now and have posted about exhibited this. Told me a whopper lie (it was grossly obvious to me she was lying) and then had a smirk on her face because she felt she got away with it.

    Our D.C. (Daughter/Bipolar Illness) lies to me on occasion and lies more often with her father. Her father either doesn't pick up as quickly or is so busy he doesn't particularly care. I caught her in a humongous lie about a year ago. Just a hunch. I said repeatedly "I feel you are not being honest." To my surprise, about three weeks later after swearing up and down she was telling the truth, she confessed. Since then, she hesitates lying with me in particular.

    A friend with a D.C. use to call her daughter's lying "crazy lying," as often she wasn't threatened in any way etc. she would lie for no particular reason. She was diagnosis' d with borderline personality disorder. (She had other things going on as well)

    I had a very close bond with my mother. Although she died young, I was still fortunate. How nice you had this with your grandmother.

    I use to feel similarly that especially since my mother died young...it's a shame and a huge loss that my daughter and I can't be close. But her mood swings, impulsivity and odd behaviors make that impossible. Similar to your daughter, she absolutely can take advantage of us if we are not aware and careful. She has done better in this regard I would say in the last six months...but I try to be alert.

    Over the years we have set up boundaries for just about everything with her and it has resulted in increments of improvement. She takes her medications regularly etc.

    I do not spend a lot of time with our daughter. I just can't. I try to recognize and acknowledge her attributes. But she can be very difficult and extra peculiar with me.
    My health is often affected negatively when I'm around her too much so I keep our visits to a minimum.

    If you need to do this, I certainly don't think you should feel an ounce of guilt.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017