Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by Jungleland, May 18, 2008.

  1. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Hi family,

    Just when I posted something positive about Aly (see laundry post on WC) it slaps me in the face!!

    Yesterday, my sis had a foster care training and her husband was working, so I had to care for her kiddos (girls ages 8,7,5, boy age 3, the girls being J's bio sibs). My H and Aly came over to help me to keep track of them all as J and I now live on her horse ranch and I have no way of running around right now.

    Day went along pretty well, just refereeing lots of little kid crappolla. After lunch, time for the 5 and unders to take a rest and the olders outside to play in the kiddie pool. H was washing dishes, I was resting/elevating my leg. H would go out every 10 minutes or so to check on the older girls.

    He came in after checking on them, decided to watch a little TV with me (like 8 minutes worth). The girls came in on their own a few minutes later, all eating a piece of candy. RED flags went up because sis had NO candy on her property, can only mean that they found it in my apartment somewhere.

    Girls had already been given strict instructions to stay out of my apartment, so they were questioned about who went in. Of course NO one would admit to it, so they all got a time out.

    Fed them dinner, more outside playtime in the pool, with H outside with them.

    They all came in pooped out so had them all get into jammies and lie down in the playroom with a movie.

    Aly and the other 2 olders kept arguing about something and refusing to tell us what. Aly finally went screaming through the house begging to talk to H alone. They were gone a LONG time. H came back around the corner looking thoroughly shook up. He told me there was some "inappropriate behavior" between the olders earlier in the day.

    About that time, sis got home. So we all sat down with the olders and had each one tell the story. Each one said something different, blamed the others, changed what they said many times.

    Finally, Aly was the one to share the most accurate (as far as we can tell) info of what happened. OMG!! It was very inappropriate, thought out, manipulative, mean, horrible. There was inappropriate touching of each other, look out set up, blackmailing of the youngest of the 3 by offering her candy if she didn't tell, then the youngest said she was going to tell if they didn't let her "play their s*e*x game" with them.

    These other girls are J's bio sibs who were all adopted from foster care, we adopted J, sis adopted older 3, all from a horrendously abusive, drugged filled home. At time of detention they were aged 4, 3, 1 and 3 mos. They were ALL abused in every way you can imagine by their Maternal G'pa and many other men.

    Anyways, as you can see, their past was filled with talks and acts of s*e*x, it was an every day occurance for them. Their play is nearly always including a man raping a woman or a child, etc. So we do monitor them extremely closely. They had been improving sooooo much, they had finally been playing with baby dolls in the appropriate way the last few months.

    We have NO idea of whose idea it was to play this little game, and, overall, it wouldn't bother me near as much as it does if there wasn't so much manipulation of younger children, lying, staking a watchout, AND their attitude while we were talking was beyond frightening. They had NO idea what was making us so upset, even though my sis and H were very calm, I tried hard but did cry a bit. Her oldest started screaming at Aly that Aly was "jealous of her and her mom, since Aly has to live away from HER mom". Sis nipped that one right away, but it still stung Aly and I very much.

    Aly said she had never done anything like this before, but something makes all us adults doubt that as it was so well planned, so manipulative, so covered up.

    I didn't get a wink of sleep last night, pain from my leg for being up way too much yesterday added to the sick, sick feeling of this situation didn't help!

    Don't get me wrong, I understand that for "normal kiddos" this is probably just some normal exploration. Like I said, we wouldn't be nearly as upset if all these kids didn't have the past they had and that this wasn't presented to us in the way it way. Aly kept saying "I HAD to tell you first, Dad, so I wouldn't get into trouble", so basically she thought if she ratted out her cousins she would be free and clear. HOW scary is that?!?!?! And the only reason she did tell was because the oldest of the other kids was threatening her to be the one to tell if Aly didn't do it again with her in her room. That is when Aly came out screaming/crying for H.

    So, so far our consequences are: sis is keeping her olders glued to her side until she can talk with their therapist tomorrow. They are basically on Mom-arrest. Aly will not be allowed over here for a very long time. Not sure I will even visit her for a long time either, she has been nothing but disrespectful most of the times we are together.

    I am just sick. It is not just the act of what they were doing, it was that H and I actually had told them earlier that we trusted them to make good choices and good behaviors were expected from all of them or they would be losing all the priveleges of freedom. And then they pull this.

    Heartbroken and sick,
  2. Sara PA

    Sara PA New Member

    I'm not sure why you seem to be placing so much blame on Aly. (Am I misreading?) While she may have been involved equally with the others, from all you've said, the younger ones weren't manipulated -- they seem to be willing, active participants. If there was never any of this behavier before from Aly, she may in fact be the victim. Even the candy part -- the sisters could have gone into your apartment (with or without Aly).

    by the way, this sort of behavior can occur in any live-in facility including Residential Treatment Center (RTC) and phos...even sleep away camps. One should consider the possibility that any child who has had an extended stay in any sort of institution has been exposed to this type of behavior.
  3. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!


    Not really blaming only Aly, really I am not. I am just responsible for HER so really I didn't mean to convey it was mostly Aly's fault. The oldest of the other kids blamed Aly for everything, but she ALWAYS blames everyone else for everything.

    I guess I was still in my very upset mode while posting, so it probably got real negative about Aly. I am sorry about that. I do understand there were 2 other kids there that were equally as guilty.

    But, Aly is almost 3 years older than the others, so I guess I did put more responsibility onto her, unfairly.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

  4. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Gosh, I don't know what to say, not having any experience in this area. Except that I hope you're all doing better today. How old is Aly? Is she listed in your bio?
    Did the younger girls seem to be upset? They were just witnesses, right ... it was something done between the older girls, from what I gather.
    Sorry so many questions. Again, I hope things have calmed down and you have a chance to talk a bit with-the kids.
  5. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Is Aly REALLY 3 years older, or just in years on the planet? Is it easy for the other girls to manipulate her, is she immature for her age, are any of the younger girls more dominant?

    I think this is a very sad situation. Not sure blame will really help.

  6. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Aly will be 11 in a few weeks. But emotionally vasilates between 4 yo and 15 yo on any given day/moment.

    Blame is definetly NOT what we are after, they were ALL equal participants according to reports today from all of them on separate questionings.

    The 8 yo is DEFINETELY very dominant and bossy and Aly is constantly wanting to please her so she will play with her.

    But I am not blaming anyone in particular. Just heart broken this had to happen at all. We would just love for them to be able to be little girls and play little girl games, not adult stuff the second an adult is not watching them.

    H is being pretty cool about the whole thing, totally parenting Aly the way I would through this. She has lost alot of priveleges, such as the freedom to play outside without an adult with her. No more High School Musical books, movies, CD's as these all seem to stimulate inappropriate behavior within all the girls. Basically making the house a "G" rated house, and no TV at all right now. I am so proud of him for following through with this, I know it is not an easy task. Once she is allowed TV again, it will be restricted to preapproved appropriate shows and videos.

    Just trying to offer more "little girl fun stuff" and not allowing the more mature things she was being allowed to watch.

    This is all so sad and I feel so clueless as how else to handle this!

  7. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    A lot of the behavior really is pretty normal for the ages involved. What makes it frightening for you is the simple fact that the other girls have had so much adult information already thrown at them. Believe it or not, having a lookout is actually pretty normal in games like this. Last thing you want is to get caught.

    Let your sister handle her kids. Your H is doing fine in his consequences for Aly. The ones to blame are the adults who damaged your sister's kids. You let Aly know why the behavior was inappropriate although it sounds like she was not comfortable to begin with or she wouldn't have been crying and talk to husband about it.

    My daughter was sexually abused pre-adoption. It took several years to turn her into an innocent. There was no TV if I was not there to watch it with her. There was no unsupervised play. There was a lot of therapy to help her work through her feelings. She did behave inappropriately in pre-school, kindergarten and first grade. I would not let the teachers punish her in any way for this behavior. I would, however, pick her up from school and have a discussion about why her body was private and other ways she could play that were appropriate for her age. For me, there were no other repercussions.

    Aly, however, was not abused pre-adoption. That makes her behavior basically that of a child who was curious and probably coerced into this behavior by the other children. The fact that she was older is irrelevant. I've seen 8 YOs with the sophistication, knowledge and manipulative skills of a 15 YO. Your daughter is not one of those. It sounds like the 8 YO is.

    You have so much anger towards Aly it is painful. I understand she has not treated you the way you expected/wanted to be treated. She also has some severe mental illnesses. I truly don't think she treats you the way she does because she wants to. I also wonder just how much respect you give her. Does your voice, facial expressions give away your pain and frustration? Do you manage to find many kind words to give her? Do you honestly notice when she is not being rude to you or do you focus on her nastiness? She's going to prove you right, you know. If you think she is ill-tempered, rude, obnoxious, she's going to be exactly that for you. She loves and needs you. She'll do whatever she can to get your attention and negative attention is better than no attention.

    She is going through major hormonal changes. On top of that, she has to sense your anger and frustration. Add that you left her and took J with you, you have got to have a little girl that is extremely hurt. You expect her to act her age. I don't think she is capable of that. She is acting her mental age. That's the best she can do.

    Please don't get me wrong. I understand your pain, anger, frustration towards Aly. She's hurt you physically and emotionally. You have a right to be angry and upset with her. However, you need to temper that anger and try to remember this is a very hurt little girl. Not a pre-teen, not a child becoming a woman, but a child growing into a body that doesn't fit.
  8. Nomad

    Nomad Guest

    Your daughter has much to deal with coping with being an adopted child and having health issues. It is a hard stance to take, but you might want to consider physicallly distancing or at least greatly limiting yourself from your sister's kids. Let your sister deal with this situation. You might provide moral support for your sister in any way, shape or form that you can. However, your primary role is to your daughter. Is Ally getting regular therapy? It seems to me that this even warrants an extra visit. It might even warrant family therapy with you and your husband present. Ally surely needs help with behavioral insight and coping skills.
  9. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Hmm. Good thoughts, Nomad. Seems so obvious, wish I'd thought of it ... :)
  10. Big Bad Kitty

    Big Bad Kitty lolcat

    I gotta say, I am glad MB spoke up, because I was starting to think that I was the odd man out.

    Vickie, I have been reading all your posts about Ally, and my heart has absolutely been breaking for her. I'm putting myself in her shoes. I would imagine she feels completely abandoned. I also would not expect her to "behave" during any type of visit with you because of it. (this recent event notwithstanding).

    Trust me, I get where you are coming from. I know the pain of being treated the way out difficult children can sometimes treat us. But she is just a kid.

    When you posted about getting the dog, I about died. I could see being Ally and thinking that she had been replaced. She ans husband must both feel like they are not good enough to be a part of the "good" part of the family. I think that is why husband reacted the way he did. But then everyone else on the board said what a great idea it was, and how wrong your husband was, so I kept my mouth shut, because I figured I was probably way off base. I'm not so sure though.

    Granted, I do not know the ins ans outs of your situation, just the bits and pieces I read here. I see your hurt. I don't see that you see her hurt. I often see seething anger towards husband. husband and Ally might feel like it is them against the world.

    The whole situation is sad, and I do not think that there is anyone to blame. But I think Ally needs her mom.
  11. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Wow guys, think i will take a few days to think on this before replying.

  12. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Vickie, I am going to PM you.
  13. Star*

    Star* call 911


    I just wanted to send a huge basket of hugs for your entire family.
  14. house of cards

    house of cards New Member

    Vickie, I am so sorry you are hurting. I have identified with you a bit because I have a sister that did the whole foster/adopt thing and I followed her into it. She has taken on older kids, badly abused kids, I can't. I took on the babies ( with the mental issues in the birth family). I sometimes wonder how I got to where I am but I haven't been through anything close to what you have with Aly. My whole purpose in posting is to give you (((hugs)))) and suggest that you watch out for J like a hawk. It is a crime-literally- what your sister's kids have been through and it isn't their fault they are hurt and acting out but please watch out for J.
  15. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Well, after much thought, here is my reply.

    I guess I have changed in the last year or so. I have finally crawled out from being a victim, allowing Aly to disrespect me, physically hurt me, emotionally and physically attack me, on a daily basis. I hit that peverbial line in the sand and had to get J and myself out of there. If that seems like J and I are "living the good life", so be it. I was keeping her and myself safe from more abuse.

    I tell Aly on a daily basis how much I love and miss her. I see her 3-4 times a week when H and she visit or I go there for dinner. I am always loving towards her, how can I not be, I adore her! That is why I am so hurt by these posts. Sorry if my posting has sounded otherwise, I do love Aly very, very much, just emotionally/physically need this break.

    Aly and her dad have a wonderful relationship, they are very close. And she is doing better in school now that the tensions of her dealing with me and J at home are gone. Not sure what else to do, we had tried everything else while living under the same roof. We are trying to work on things and are all in therapy together and individually.

    Not even sure why I feel the need to explain myself, except that this place has been my soft place to land for a very long time and I would miss you all so much if I left, which was my first thought. But, I see how you all could come to the conclusions you have, I have changed, gotten stronger in so many ways, ways I pray will be a good thing in the long run. Aly knows that she can no longer disrespect me or H and still get whatever she wants. Life will not be like that for her when she is on her own, we are trying hard to teach her to respect adults and others.

    Anyways, thinking I will take a break from here for a bit. Still thinking on all things said and will mull it over for a bit longer.

    Thank you all for caring enough for Aly to bring this all up to me, I can see how it must look to y'all.

  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member


    I want to post in support of you. Sometimes members who havent been here for the years and years that some of us have just dont have the entire history to base what is happening now on. (Did that make sense?)

    What happened when Aly broke your arm was just the final straw for you. You have been through so much in her life...none of it her fault per se...but you fought hard. I understand why you did what you did.

    Hugs girl. Keep your head up. If you sound like you're venting about something here...well where on earth else are you supposed to do it?
  17. Star*

    Star* call 911


    You don't owe anyone reason one. I think what Janet said is very true. I often wonder where Aly WOULD be had you not taken her. I know you love her - she's adorable. I love Dude too, but I don't like him a LOT of the time and had it not been for Residential Treatment Center (RTC) I don't know if I would be sitting here writing to you OR in a nut house playing invisible juice harp on my lips waiting on applesauce and pills. The level of dysfunction in some of our kids is hard at times for others to grasp. So when we say things in a "safe" room - we're venting and someone else see's it and interprets it differently. To walk a mile in my shoes is to understand that you couldn't walk in my shoes and I couldn't walk in yours. Besides I think you're feet are probably tiny and NOW you only have ONE shoe and I need two.

    My suggestion in another laundry post wasn't an invitation for judgment, I should have taken it to PM. Well meaning advice was given in love - not judgment. I've known you here for years and we've always supported each other. I know that hasn't changed and for it I am thankful. I just know that had it been me speaking about Dude - I could have counted on you to do the same and point out that I was on a roll. Not hard to get on one either with our kids.

    You're right - there is so much more going on and has been going on and stuff that for YEARS has been going on that you maybe once in a while said "help" - but after a while of enduring abuse in an abusive situation from an abusive person regardless of WHO they are or HOW old they are or WHAT has happened to them in life - SOMETIMES the ONLY thing you can do is leave and work on things from a distance. If that wasn't a real life situation Residential Treatment Center (RTC)'s would be obsolete. Aly is with her Dad, she sees you, you are learning to take one day at a time now because you are ABLE to and I think THAT is much better plans than staying in a situation that isn't good for you, husband, ALY, H or anyone. Being away gives you time to miss someone and see things from a different vantage point that may help later on.

    I know you love her, I know you love H - I know you love husband. You don't have to explain that, and you don't have to word your posts differently or anything - you HAVE the safety of coming here, posting your needs, or funnies, or cries, or wants or suggestions - just like everyone else.
    You know that picture we were talking about? Maybe you should post it sometime and show the rest of the board all the children you raised.

    and......besides - you made me barf with your leg snap sounds. I need to know if you get better or walk like Festus from that show with Marshall Dillon and miss Kitty......they way my memory is going I'll be luck to wish old what's his name an 18th birthday this - whenever he was born. lol

    You're family - you can't do a road trip - I will find you. And with a broken leg that won't be hard - you'll leave a skid mark in the the mummy.

  18. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    I understand where MB and others are coming from.

    And I know how much you love Aly, how far you've come in your personal growth. I know the background that brought you to where you are now. And I know why the break is necessary for both you and Aly.

    I'd say due to past experiences, what took place in your original post isn't really surprising, although I know upsetting. Sounds to me like you all handled the situation fairly well. I might not agree had Aly come and told you straight away what was going on. But she's still just a kid, too. So can't really lay it at her feet either.

    I'd slip in some extra therapist visits to let Aly work this out.

    I didn't think you were blaming Aly. I think you were stunned and upset this happened. But it's important for you to know that it's not uncommon with abused kids. (first hand experience here) And even easy child's wanting to explore post a look out so they don't get caught. Does show they have much more to work on in therapy, though.

    Now I'm with Star, you better stick around. Cuz in my opinion you don't post enough as it is. And we MISS you when you're gone.

  19. Jungleland

    Jungleland Welcome to my jungle!

    Ok, thanks so much Janet, Kathie, Starbie and Lisa!!!

    I knew I couldn't stay away, this is my place to come when I am hurting, needing support, suggestions or a laugh. I know I don't post near enough to others and I will work on that.

    To those who posted their concerns about me and my relationship with Aly, thank you for caring so much for her.

    See you all soon,
  20. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Shoot Vicki...I regularly have wanted to string Cory up by the short hairs and have target practice. Im pretty sure at some point in his teen years I posted that I was seriously considering installing a wire dog cage in his bedroom and locking him in it so he couldnt escape. I was only semi kidding. It really ticked me off that the state could lock him up in a cage but that I, his parent, could not...still does tick me off if you want to know the