Sorry.....dont know if I am allowed to post religious thread?

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by lovelyboy, May 2, 2012.

  1. lovelyboy

    lovelyboy Member

    I were thinking alot if I must post this......but at the end I thought we are mature enough to discuss it.....
    I am EXAUSTED after a discussion this morning with a mom for an HOUR at the school.....
    I referred her to my difficult child psychiatrist one month ago...her daughter, also 8 yrs old suffers from ADHD.....She went, was very impressed and started medications......
    School started today after almost a month break! Out of caring I asked her how her daughter was doing.....She then went on telling me she stopped all medications last Sunday, because some lady came to pray for her daughter and she must believe 100 percent that she will be cured so she stopped all medications and told her daughter that when she feels destracted or restless in class she must just pray....
    I dont want to bore you with the whole discussion, but it also included illness because of the since of our fathers.....not speeking in tongues.....and not declairing all our since.....
    Bottom line was I told her I feel that medicating is not a sin and that medical help can be part of being blessed and cured.......She even went on telling me that I have been send on her path to test her faith!!!!OMW!
    Dont really know if this type of discussion is allowed on the forum, if not, please forgive and delete this post.....I just feel so very exausted tonight and guilty because maybe I am rasionalizing all this because my faith isnt strong enough and maybe this is contributing to my kids struggling!!!!
    But my hubby just say.....this arguement doesnt make sense because then all believers will be healthy and all non believers will be ill....So not true....
    I just get so frustrated with judgemental people and the uphill struggle of being a difficult child parent....At the moment my kids are improving so much and I feel the therapists are the most wonderfull instruments thats been send on our path to help us through this difficult journey!
  2. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    I'm not sure that's really a religious post, per se - more of frustration with a person who is judgmental.

    We all have different beliefs, so we try not to push them on others. And what I'm reading here is, that lady was trying to force her beliefs on you.

    If all of us here have difficult children - and pretty much I'd say we do - then that's a monumental lack of faith we have, if we follow that particular line of logic. Your lack of faith isn't why your kids are struggling.

    I hate it when people ASSUME it's all the parents' fault. For whatever reason.


    I have NO idea whether this kind of post is frowned on but since you wrote it, I'm going to comment on I grew up with this kind of thinking my entire life and it has damaged me in many ways. Although I know what verses a person like this is referring to, I think it's being taken out of context. in my humble opinion, God has given us medications and doctors that can help us but the more important thing is He has given us common sense and wisdom. I wouldn't let anything she said change what I was doing.
  4. lovelyboy

    lovelyboy Member

    I think what made this even more painfull to me is that our 2 lovely boys have been adopted at birth....I know both of them had believers as bio parents....OMW if I have to start worrying about the sinse of the fathers.....I dont even know their bioparents parents exct. I do know that they both have been blessed...I even had a creche teacher telling me that my one sons allergies is because of the adoption, exct!
  5. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    ...Allergic to being adopted?




    And my mother told me my father didn't have enough faith so that's why he died of Lung Ca....and that having a C-section is cause you don't have enough I once had a "Christian" therapist tell me I didn't have the Holy Spirit because I wasn't joyful and patient...yada yada yada...I better get off this
  7. lovelyboy

    lovelyboy Member

    No Step.....he devoloped allergies, again because of the sinse of the fathers!!!! And the experience of rejection...she even wanted me to take him to church so they can pray for him, because I didnt undergo the correct education to know how to pray in the right way for him!!!!!
  8. keista

    keista New Member

    ((((HUGS)))) Did you ever wonder why there are so many different religions and different churches within these religions? It's because ppl are diverse, and it is my belief that God, or the Universe, or "whatever" intentionally made us that way. I think there are many different paths we can take to get to the same place.

    in my opinion the "sins of the father" argument can be looked at many ways. If the bible is looked at as a psychological text - an explanation of why things are the way they are, this makes perfect sense. What's one of the first questions we ask newcomers? "Are there any dxes on the family tree?" If the father is bipolar, then the son may be bipolar. If the father has a drinking problem, then the son may very well end up with a drinking problem. If the father is abusive, then the son may become abusive. And of course we can extend this to women as well. in my opinion this is how the bible explains this occurrence. It takes many many factors to break these cycles, and sometimes the cycle gets broken by shear luck, or as some would call it, God's Grace. Other times it takes work, will and determination to break the cycle. Part of that may be prayer. For some it may ONLY be prayer.

    Bottom line is you must do what your "mom gut" tells you to do. What it tells you is right to do for you and your family.
  9. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Oh goodness sake. She is in denial and grasping at straws. And believe me ...I do believe, though I waiver and wonder ....inside I always find comfort in a belief system. It is not for everyone though and I am with husband on this. How many people all over the world who are not her kind of Christian are healthy and fine. I feel sorry for her. Especially for her child. I do know someone who thinks like this and if that is her path that is great for her. Your kids are super blessed to be with parents who are accepting the opportunities provided. I am not good at Bible stories but do remember the lessons the man in the sinking boat who turned down rescuers waiting for God to save him the end God said I sent you boats..... she is missing the boat. ( I respect if others agree with her ...just mho and I know lovely is not an evil temptress! )
  10. allhaileris

    allhaileris Crumbling Family Rock

    I don't believe in a god at all, and it really irks me when people use the line that that lady used on you. I totally get that people who have faith in something (a god, jelly beans, their medications, etc) can heal themselves better than not having faith at all. Our bodies and brains are powerful things! The problem is that our kids aren't "sick", no amount of praying is going to re-sequence their DNA.

    Common sense, mommy gut, and lots of scientific study helps our kids. Using one's faith as an excuse to treat one's child a certain way (which includes starving, beating, forced marriage) only harms the child.

    And if she really believed in her god, then she'd believe that she or he made the scientist who made the medicine to help her child.
  11. ksm

    ksm Well-Known Member

    Your situation reminds me of an old Red Skelton joke... A man's home is starting to flood and the police come and tell him to leave, and he says "No, God will save me", then the water comes up higher and a man in a rowboat comes by and says "get in the boat" and the man says "No, God will save me." Then the man is on the roof and a helicopter flies over and drops a rope, and the man refuses, and says "God will save me". Well he drowned. When he got to heaven, he asked God why he didn't save him... and God says, "Well, I sent the police, a boat and a helicopter!"

    I do believe that faith helps us cope with difficulties we go thru, whether it is a difficult child, an illness, broken relationships. I also believe there are people who are using their God given gifts to help others (doctors, therapists, teachers). We need to take advantage of the available help. KSM
  12. Tiapet

    Tiapet Old Hand

    I have experienced this on more then one occasion over the years with my difficult children. I also have a sister who, though it's not about religion, does not believe in mental illness at all yet her nieces & nephew, mother and others in family all clearly suffer from it! I grew up with an uncle who was a minister (now retired) who does not feel this way at all and, in fact now has his own grandchild (believed in mental illness and not faith based healing) who has severe mental illness that no one in the state of TX can help (brought in a top dr who was retired to even try to help the child). She's now facing residential.

    Yes, there maybe "some" kids who may get better that may not have ever had any mental illness of any type to begin with that actually got better because of that fact. Then again, there are those children who ARE mentally ill that suffer because they won't get any better being treated like this but have no choice but the choice of their parents. I do not judge personally. It is for the parents to choose and become educated and/or see what's happening to their child. I always hope that they do end up seeing the light if and when the child really does need the help.

    Hang in there and tighten your armor! :) You will know what is right for YOU! {hugs}
  13. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    in my opinion the lady is an idiot and a bigoted idiot at that. This is MY opinion and I respect her right to have her opinion and care for her child her way, even if it is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. What really makes me IRATE is her idea that she has some right to tell YOU all this garbage and try to inflict her beliefs on you. She has NO right to do that.

    Quite frankly she is keeping her child from having a full life and is inflicting a lot of unnecessary guilt on her child. This can only cripple her child and I feel very sorry for them both. Chnces are that if this woman persists in this line of thought/behavior/belief, her daughter will pull away from her in a major way and will act out HUGELY as a teen, and as an adult the daughter may very well hate her. I have known quite a few families wehre the kids were raised with this line of thought. As adults that is exactly how the kids raised that way felt. I know one guy I went to school with who is dyslexic and told tht if he just had enough faith he wuoldn't be dyslexic anymore. He will not even speak to his parents if he sees them at the store (I have seen this happen - they try to talk to him and his kids and he walks away as if they were not even there.) and he refuses to let them even speak to his children. His parents tried to sue for grandparents' rights and in our state if the parents are married you cannot even file. WHen he divorced his parents filed again and he flat out told the judge that they abused him, and how they abused him with this garbage, and the judge said that not only do they not get gparent's rights, if they continued to try to speak to the kids at their ball games, then they would get slapped iwth a restraining order. It was a big relief to the parents because the gparents were showing up at games yelling things to the kdis about this nonsense. I know because his kids were on teams with my kids - the whole town knew.

    I have neighbors who believe this nonsense. The dad is ALL about how faith fixes everything and they are so much better than everyone. He has soooooo much faith that he beats his wife, daughter, animals and anyone who upsets him. He has so much faith that he drinks beer all night and goes around town preaching about how alcohol is the tool of the devil and how he is so wonderful because he doesn't drink. Again, stuff I have seen firsthand. right after we moved his wife came over and I was in bed with a migraine so she forced her way past my kids, came into my BEDROOM and started praying over me. I couldn't get up right away because the migraine but within five min she was worse than the migraine so I got up and had to drag her out of my home. Then she came back, after ranting at me about how I needed to pray and my health would be fixed adn I wouldn't need docs or medications, and seh wanted ME to go talk to her husband and tell him that beating her was wrong!!! I told her to get off my property and go to the DV center, that if anyone from ehr home came to our property I was going to call the cops and then put a hex on her because I was Druid - Orthodox Reformed. (I am not, not even sure there IS a Druid, Orthodox Reformed religion. I know druidism is a religion but the other is nonsense my dad made up. He used to tell the nuns at the Cath school I went to that it was our family religion. Got me a LOT of extra religion classes, but it WAS funny.)

    I have NO patience for people who want to inflict that kind of religious abuse on children or other people. If you want to believe that, go right ahead. But don't inflict it on kids and don't even TRY to get it near me. Most people who buy into that kind of thing are not able to explain WHY they feel that this is a rational belief or even explain WHERE in the Bible it says that.

    This reminds me of a joke I heard once. It is a joke, but it is also an interesting perspective and thought on this topic.

    A woman was home alone when a major flood happened. She was out in the yard wehn it started and a neighbor offered her a ride to safe ground.

    She said "No. The Lord will take care of me. He will provide."

    The water started to get deep. The Sheriff came by and told her she had to leave. He had a truck and wanted to give her a ride to safe ground.

    She said, "No The Lord will take care of me. He will provide."

    She went to the roof as the house flooded. A man came by in a boat and offered her a ride to safe ground.

    She said, "No The Lord will take care of me. He will provide."

    Then a helicopter came and a rescue worker came down on a ladder to help her up to the helicopter to fly her to safety.

    She said, "No The Lord will take care of me. He will provide."

    She died and went up to Heaven. She asked the Lord why he didn't save her, why he let her drown.

    God said, "What do you mean? I sent your neighbor, the Sheriff, a man in a boat and men in a helicopter. Why didn't you go with them? Why did you stay there and drown?"

    I honestly believe that we have learned what we know about hygeine, health, safety, medicine and modern surgery, medications, therapy, etc... because the Lord wanted us to, because he HELPED us figure these things out. I don't really care if you call him God, the Lord, your higher power, or whatever. I don't mean the God of any particular religion. I just believe that we were guided to learn these things, figure these things out for a reason. Not to prove there isn't a God, but because he wants us to use our intelligence to help ourselves.

    I know others dont' believe this, and I am okay with that. I just think that this makes a heck of a lot more sense than us having learned all this stuff and having a God who wants us to NOT use this knowledge, the full range of human intelligence.

    I would not argue with this woman. She isn't smart enough to understand. But why would God have allowed us to have these tools and this knowledge and want us to not help ourselves with it?

    Again, these are MY beliefs and I am okay if yours are different as long as you don't harm others iwth your beliefs. in my opinion this woman is harming YOU with this nonsense and she is harming her child with her beliefs. A loving God does not want that.
  14. helpangel

    helpangel Active Member

    I believe God puts you where you need to be when you need to be there - proof is here I am out of all the billion places on the internet I could have landed this site is where I needed to be. You all tell me what I need to hear even if sometimes it makes me mad LOL.

    My mom actually said God was punishing me for running away with the carnival at 17yo because I was pregnant with my son.

    I explained no mom God blessed me with this baby because I was selfish and on a path of destruction and needed keeping this baby healthy to stay off drugs and have a reason to get my sh** together.

    I got her off the "spare the rod & spoil the child" kick when I explained a shepherd uses a rod or staff to guide the sheep - you should only use the staff to beat the sheep if you are trying to kill it.

    Corny I know but I knew I wasn't gonna whoop this out of Angel and I needed to shut my mom down!
    Some religious fanatics (like my mom) are downright dangerous
  15. keista

    keista New Member

    love it!
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  16. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    Helpangel, that analogy abut the shepherd's rod and staff was something shared with us in church last Sunday. The crook is used to rescue sheep from tricky situations and the rod used to guide the sheep, as well as defend them from predators. it is not used to punish the sheep. You are spot on.

    Step, you said
    Not quite. The lady who took her daughter off medications, did so because someone else imposed their views on her. They then used emotional blackmail on her to get her to comply, and to also get her to close her mind to all medical possibilities.

    Which of us has not been where this woman is? How many of us, if told that we had to do X, Y or Z to help our children, have not at least considered it? I'm not talking necessarily about any sort of mumbo jumbo, I'm also talking here about the times that health professionals have told us to do something even where our instincts told us it was wrong. This is not much different; we do what the doctor wants because otherwise, the doctor might refuse to continue treatment. And we do what religious leaders tell us to do, because our social and spiritual acceptance by others depends on it.

    The sad thing is - if God really did heal through this "faith healer" then the healing would be form God, not from the faith healer. And God uses whatever tools come to hand, as so many of you have indicated. But too often I have encountered "religious nutters" who see themselves as a modern prophet or some other person of some spiritual superiority. They then use that superiority as clout, as some sort of weapon to bully the people they should actually be caring for.

    I could quote scripture, examples from the gospels, which you could have used. But it would not be of any use, because this poor woman is desperate to help her child any way she can. And given the alternative of medications indefinitely (which still don't fix everything) and someone promising an instant cure ("if you have enough faith" - a handy cop-out for when the instant prayer cure fails to be permanent or even happen at all) - I understand the attraction of the instant cure, on any terms. I think a lot of us would be willing to sell our souls to save our children. In a way, that is what this poor woman has done - sold her soul to someone promising the impossible. Of course she has to stick to her path, because if she doesn't, she will be the one responsible for her daughter's ongoing medical condition.

    That poor, poor woman...

  17. tiredmommy

    tiredmommy Site Moderator

    This is one of those topics that we do need to tread carefully upon. There hasn't been a problem yet, in my humble opinion, with the discussion at hand but I will caution our members to refrain from discussing the merit or value of a particular religion or religious belief. We need to keep this site a safe place for all parents/caregivers of difficult children.
  18. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    I agree, that this isn't religious, per se, it's about very, very poor judgment, and a different kind of judgment.
    I read about people in the newspaper who have their kids taken away from them for less.
    How very, very frustrating.
    All I can do is send hugs.
  19. lovelyboy

    lovelyboy Member

    Thanx all for your valueble support!
    I have also came to a space where I realized what we pray for isn't always in Gods will and we cant say our prayers havent been answered just because we "didnt get what we wanted"! If that was the case.....none of us would have walked the painfull paths we did and had this wonderfull wisdom to support each other!
    Ps....this mom approached me yesterday again.....and after few minutes talking, she actually asked me if I maybe think she must rather take her kid back to the dr.....Jip....reality of school kicking in after the long holiday!...I just said she must do what her mommy hearts tells her to......
  20. ksm

    ksm Well-Known Member

    Hmmmm.... God works in mysterious ways. LOL. You did a great job answering her! KSM