what now?

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by awhitman, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    hello, i am new here and this is my first post. i am very disturbed today and kinda need a friend to talk to. today i got on the internet and started poking around because i was curious about something. i heard someone say that adult psychological disorders cannot be diagnosed until the child reaches 18 and is legally an adult. i wondered what my son might be diagnosed with when he gets 18, if anything. my son will be 18 in december of this year.

    i typed in some of his behaiviors and low and behold antisocial personality disorder started popping up everywhere. he has been diagnosed with conduct disorder. as i started reading and researching the disease i found out that the person had to have three out of about ten signs to be diagnosed. my son clearly has at least seven of the markers.

    Also there was "psychopath" and a list of about 20 things on that list. The person has to have most of the things on the list and out of about 20 he had 16 or so.

    I guess i have been very naiive about this whole thing. i guess i thought that conduct disorder was just a name for something , you know it sounds a lot like troublemaker. i guess i thought daniel would grow out of this. i hoped anyways. and i am always looking for some new way to fix him so that he will have this chance at a normal life. i am always dissappointed when he does something else that is leading down the same wrong direction.

    i had hoped that he would at least be able to support himself. Looking at the psychopath description is like looking at a biography that daniel wrote himself about his life. And what it says to me is this. Daniel is not going to grow out of this. He will maintain a lifestyle that is not condusive to productive, happy life. Chances are he will have trouble with the law. Chances are if he has a family he will abuse them. He has an increased risk for suicide, violent death, drug abuse.

    I am left bewildered. I am wondering, what now? Because daniel is 17, he will be 18 in december. he is kicked out of school in the state of indiana for the rest of the year and if he tries to go back next year and miraculously does his work- which he will not- he will be twenty when he graduates.

    he will not do any work for any length of time so he cant hold down a job. He steals. He lies. He is violent when he does not like what you say or you deny him something he wants. he has threatened to kill my husband.

    my two younger children live in tennesse with thier father because they told the judge they were afraid of daniel. daniel has been sexually aggresive with peers and his sister and someone else. lets leave it at that. and it is highly highly abnormal. nevertheless he has never raped anyone. i cant just throw him out of my house but i cant just take care of him for the rest of my life and allow him to abuse me and threaten to kill my husband.so what now?

    i am afraid of him. i still love him. what do i do now?:(
    Lasted edited by : Apr 16, 2010
  2. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Hi. I'm glad that you found your way here.

    A couple questions, had Daniel ever been placed outside the home? You mention this his two younger siblings live away in fear of their brother and that the has been sexually aggressive with others as well. Since he's been diagnosis'd with CD, he must be seeing a psychiatrist right? Has noone ever suggested some sort of residential treatment facility for your son in order to get some in-depth counseling? Have you or your husband ever called the police for violence and threats towards you both? Has he ever been on any kind of medications? You say he as been kicked out of school this year but the school has not offered any alternative plan (alternative school)?

    Sorry, there are usually many questions for a new poster. There are others who have found themselves in similar situations with regards to the age of their child and their fears for their future. You have found a truly soft place to land.

  3. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    daniel has been arrested numberous times. he is used to it now and is very nonchalant about it.

    he has been arrested for unruly/pulling his brother around by the neck at school and then struggling with a police officer when the officer grabbed his arm.

    Then unruly again because he ran away from home and when his dad picked him up he got angry at the fact that he was grounded and took off again, so the police came and 6 or 7 squad cars responded and had to chase him through the city!!

    then he was arrested for assault against a police officer because he attacked my mother and father while i was away for job training and when they called the police he went quietly but while the officer was doing paperwork daniel was attempting to break out the window of the squad car with his hand cuffs and when the officer pulled him out he fought with the officer and had to be maced!

    then again because he attacked his sister and when i lost it he called me a ***** and i smacked him so he attacked me. that one was domestic assault.

    then i went through a custody battle and my exhusband brought up all this stuff to dept of childrens services. so daniel got a full scale psychological evaluation and educational assesment and was sent to a residential treatment facility in murfreesboro tennessee for nine months last year. he came home to us in indiana in december.

    i had hoped he would come out of it-yet again- but it did not work. He started getting into more and more trouble. Finally getting kicked out of school and the next day he decided to go to a friend's house without letting me know about it. when he was confronted about it he got angry with me. he wanted to know when his grounding would be over and when i told him it was indefinite he told me that he didnt care what i said he would do what he wanted and there was nothing i could do about it so i called the police and he has been in a juvenille facility pending his court date since the beginning of the month.
    the only thing he has said to me is that he wants to stay at the facility and he does not want to live with me anymore. and he was not nice about it.

    i guess thats a little too much information. sorry. anyways he has been prescribed triliptol at the residential tx facility but he signed a waiver and refused to take it because he said it made him feel numb. i think he does not trust people to give him medications. he thinks there is nothing wrong with him.
    Lasted edited by : Apr 16, 2010
  4. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    sorry i had to look at the questions again to make sure but i missed one. The court is ordering him to go to an alternative school that helps kids work on thier ged. the po says that i will be responsible for getting him to and from that school after he is released from the juvenile facility he is in. he will most likely be released on the 26 th of this month. Thank you for talking with me, i appreciate it a lot.:D
  5. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Hi there, I am so sorry you are finding yourself in this position.

    My son should have been given the conduct disorder diagnosis when he was a teen but they missed it. Now he has some form of personality disorder but he isnt a clear cut anti-social, he doesnt meet all the criteria, he slips into some others too. He is quite the enigma.

    At your sons age, if he wont cooperate with you in getting treatment, I dont know how much luck you are going to have other than attempting to force it through legal channels. You can talk to the juvenile authorities about a child in need of services which would get him a probation officer to force him to get treatment if you think that would help. Maybe.

    Otherwise, I think I would start that paper trail going with the law about all the violence he does towards anyone so that when he does turn 18, you can make him leave. That may be the best thing for him and everyone else. It does break our hearts to have to have our kids leave our homes but sometimes it is what it takes.

  6. Im a Believer

    Im a Believer New Member

    Just wanted to say hello ~

    I am new too - There are MANY here that are wiser than I - I have no light to shed on your situation only to say this is an awesome place to come and share -

    It really helps.

    Share anytime - we care ~

  7. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    you really think i should kick him out? how will he live, he is like a small child in his thought processes. It makes me feel like i am abandoning a small child. a very mean small child but nevertheless a small child. he has no education , no drivers license, no where to go. should i look into homeless shelters? Isnt there any help for adults who have mental illnesses llike assisted living places?
  8. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    you are probably right. as soon as he turns 18 he will have almost all the signs of a psychopath, the ones he doesnt have are just because he is a kid right now. the other markers have to do with having many failed relationships/marriages. he hasnt had time to do any of those.

    my husband is afraid to sleep at night for fear that daniel will kill him in the night.

    on march twentieth we had a wedding/renewal of vows and daniel swore that he would try to put a stop to it. when he was informed that we were already married so that was not possible he said yeah i can put and end to that too. when asked if he would make me choose between my husband and him if given the chance he readily said yes, he would make me choose if he could. When i asked him about it he said that he would go to the wedding but he didnt really want to because it bothered him that i had someone that i was finally happy with and that i would be spending all my time with my husband.

    He had clearly drawn the battle line. its him or my husband. Before i met my husband i felt like i had gone from one abusive relationship /with my exhusband- to an even more abusive relationship/with my son. I shudder to think what might happen when i get to the senior citizen age if daniel is my caretaker. I would rather go to a nursing home. Or an insane assylum.

    I remember one time when daniel was about 5 and we were visiting my mother who for some reason thought daniel was a golden child. she bought him presents constantly and lavished attention on him. at her house i was not allowed to discipline daniel in any way. i heard something in the kitchen and found my mother on her knees in front of daniel and she was crying. i asked her what happened. it turns out he punched her as hard as he could in the face for no reason. he was just standing there as if nothing had happened.

    in his psychological evaluation the psychologist noted that daniel has no remorse for anything that he has done. none. i guess i need to drop him off at a homeless shelter. my mother will never speak to me again and i shudder to think of what he might do for revenge but it is better for me and my husband to be alive i guess. at least for a while.
    Lasted edited by : Apr 16, 2010
  9. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Honey....Im not saying drop him off right now.

    From what you say in all these posts, your son is a very troubled young man. It sounds like he has been for a very long time. For a small boy to punch his grandmother is a very bad sign. That must have hurt your heart very much. As a grandmother I would be devastated if one of my grandchildren punched me like that but I would surely support the parent in getting them help.

    I cant imagine your son feels very good about himself. I will tell you that he may do some changing between now and his mid twenties. My sons was downright awful to have around, even stole money from me when he was 20 and I charged him with 3 felonies. Now he is living on his own and we have a pretty good relationship. LOL...I had to check my signature to see how old he was...he will be 24 in July. Gosh my kids are getting old! I swear I never thought he would live this long. He has been in jail several times and is now on probation. He may well end up there again. His choices. I give every day that he is not in jail and doing well an A+ in my book.

    Now that certainly wasnt what I envisioned when they put him in my arms all those years ago. I thought of college and marriage and maybe even a great job doing wonderful things. Instead I got mental illness and jails and probation officers and the cutest little granddaughter ever put on this earth.

    I want to invite you over to the Parent Emeritus Forum. It is for parents of kids who are older and we are learning about detaching from them. You will hear many stories and get lots of advice from some fantastic warrior moms. I happen to be the Moderator there. I have been on this site since 1999 and we have lots of parents who have been here just as long.

    Hugs. We know how hard this is.
  10. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    thank you so much for your advice. its good to hear from people who have actually been there. i will continue to try with daniel and i will certainly check out the other forum. thank you!!!!!!!!!!
  11. Marguerite

    Marguerite Active Member

    I think the problem is, Janet - he does feel quite OK with himself. No remorse. Now, with what happens most kids would feel bad about what they did, but a kid who seems to fit this label has at some point learned how to switch off the negative feelings about his own actions, so it doesn't bother him any more. Or maybe it never did bother him because that switch was permanently in the "off" position all his life.

    Sometimes these things just happen. Having grandma spoil him while you're not allowed to discipline him - OK, it doesn't help. But it is not the cause. If his grandma loves him, she should support you trying to get help for him.

    And even though he is as much of a problem as you describe, he still needs to be listened to in this. Those medications he refuses to take because he doesn't like how they make him feel - he needs someone to say to him, "OK, we will try and find something else that can help you, but not make you feel so numb." He needs to be made involved in his own care, and that means that given the alternative - him refusing his medications entirely - it is better to work with him to find something he IS prepared to try.

    He also needs his doctor to work on him to help him understand why he needs these medications, what they're for and what is going to happen to him in the long term if he continues to refuse treatment.

    Other than this, I don't think I can help you much in practical terms because your system is different to ours in Australia, and also I don't have this problem with my kids (thank goodness!). But like Janet, I've been on this site a few years now and I've read a lot of problems like yours. You are definitely not alone and there is plenty of moral support for you here even from people like me who don't have the personal experience of what you're going through.

    But there are plenty of others here who have been through very similar things to you (and others going through it now) so you will find, from them, much more directly useful advice.


  12. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I have been basically in this boys shoes and have raised and lived with one who wasnt quite as severe it would seem but close.

    I remember wanting everyone around me to think I didnt get a rats behind what they felt about me or how they thought I felt about them. I guess that came out right. In every sense of the words back then I was truly a borderline patient with all the manipulative lying behaviors in the book. I would look you straight in the eye and lie just as well as if I was breathing. I was a witch!

    Took a few rocky years and three kids to pull me up from the bottom of a real deep hole. Now I am not always the most stable of human beings but I am a whole lot nicer to be around! LOL.
  13. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    This is all very helpful to me, for his whole life i have been thinking that daniel has just had a rough time and as soon as i could get him out of the situation we were in and into a normal family that he would straighten out.

    he saw my ex husband abuse physically and verbally, etc. once my exhusband tried to break my foot and as terrified as he was of his father he stood up to him and told him to leave his mother alone! and my exhusband then turned on daniel and i had to send daniel to his room because i was afraid he would hurt daniel. my ex followed daniel and i had to start screaming at the ex to get his attention back on me.

    at school he had major problems. he has dyslexia and so it was almost impossible for daniel to learn to read. i worked with him and tried to help him but it was so frustrating! and the school was absolutely no help. they refused to diagnose him as dyslexic because it meant that they would have to spend money to help him. they chose to believe it was my fault for not helping him enough. because of all that he decided that he was stupid because he just couldnt get it like the other kids.

    he started having behaivioral problems at school and i got calls all the time from the school. he told me a few weeks ago that he actually started wanting to fight other kids and he enjoyed the feeling of someone punching him and him punching them

    .when i left my exhusband daniel was 13. i guess it was too late and he had seen too much and lived through too much because the behaivior continued and got worse. i was working hard and trying to take care of three children and a few times after i would go to sleep at night he would leave our apartment and go running all over the city with one of his delinquent friends from midnight to around five oclock.he started stealing from me also and smoking cigarettes.

    after he came back from the treatment facility i had gotten married and moved. to make it easier for him to transition into a new school i went out and bought him a new wardrobe with all the brand name clothing. he did well for a few months. he made friends quickly. but soon his new friends shunned him because he started acting out at school. so he started hanging out with troublemakers. he said he feels more comfortable with outsiders.

    The damage is done now. i really tried to do all i could to get away from the ex sooner. its hard when you have three children and daycare is so expensive you realize you wont be able to support your family. also my mother and father would not let me live with them even though they knew what was going on. i think my mother tried to make it up to daniel by continuing to lavish him with affection and gifts.

    Now that he lives with me and my new husband and we are good to each other i expected daniel to change. that was a little too much to expect. his behaivior cannot change just like that. its all a matter of changing the direction of my attention. to switching gears. the problem is no longer the situation. Daniel needs help, professional help. i see that now.

    my heart is broken for him. somewhere inside i know there is still that small child with a big heart. he has just buried that person. i will talk to the po tomorrow and ask her about recommending a good psychologist. I will attempt now with everything i have to get him help. thank you for your posts, its good to get opinions from others to set you in the right direction.
    Lasted edited by : Apr 16, 2010
  14. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Welcome to the site. I am really glad you found us.

    I did not read every word above, but from what I read here is what I gathered. I do not mean this to be offensive. I get the feeling you have made excuses for this child for years. The very fact that the ex had to reveal things to the court - not you - and it resulted in a residential placement. I think you have been trying to protect him - probably from what he experienced as a child when your ex was abusing you. I don't know, maybe you feel guilt that he had to endure and witness that abuse.

    I do not mean that as an accusation. I mean it as a tool for you to evaluate your own reactions and actions in the past so you can be sure you are doing the right thing.

    Reading what I read above, I think the best possible thing for him is to get his way at this time. Get him into another residential facility. You will NOT be able to after he is 18. This is likely the last chance for it. I would not accept him back into the home. He is not prepared or equiped to live in a traditional family setting. He needs trained professionals 24x7. Sorry - I know that might be painful to read. AND I AM NO EXPERT. This is just what comes to my mind as I read your thread.
  15. dirtmama

    dirtmama New Member

    i am no expert either...but thought maybe i could offer something. First off, bless your heart for all you have gone through. I was thinking that your sons behavior correlates with- your ex's. maybe these arn't behaviors he's learned and can change, But serious mental illness passed on from your ex. Abusers are surley suffering from some mental illness. Also, all you both went through was tramatic (and continue to). I would suggest making an attempt at getting him serious help before he turns 18, any way you can.... Call all the resources in your area. There is help out there, have faith, you will never regret try to help your son. Good luck!
  16. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    i read some stuff about children who are abused a long time ago. kids tend to act in certain ways when they are exposed to abuse. one of the things that can happen is that the child begins to identify with the abuser. the child may hurt his siblings or animals.

    i cant remember all the stuff that i read but i remember that i was horrified. i didnt think that the abuse would affect him as much as it did because it was directed at me and i always intervened if the ex started after any of the children. that is why i guess i blamed myself for his behaivior and tried to modify his environment to the point that he could act more normal. because according to this information i got he WAS acting normally, for a child who lives in an abusive home.

    now he no longer lives in that situation but i guess it was so traumatic for him its kinda like post traumatic stress disorder. but the other thing is that he knows that he has been through a lot more than other kids so he uses that as an excuse to do whatever he wants. he can always say, well i dont know why i did that, maybe its because of (x) bad thing. like i dont know why i threw my sister across the room. i guess she just made me mad and i just cant control myself because i have all this anger inside and i just lose it.

    i can believe that to some extent this is true but now he is so much more sinister and manipulative. he has just decided that he doesnt care. period. he doesnt care about me, his grandma, his brother or sister. he cares about nothing, no one. he gets angry and he gives this look. the first time you see it / it scares you to death. its a look like i could kill you right now and feel NOTHING. and i would enjoy it. really cold.

    im kinda torn between feeling sorry for him/ hoping for him/ and wanting to tuck tail and run run run. its confusing
    Lasted edited by : Apr 16, 2010
  17. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    Daniel has a court date on the 26th of this month. i will let you know what happens.
    It has been very good to talk to you all. I needed someone who was not biased to look at this and tell me what they thought.

    My husband tells me that nothing is going to work with daniel and i need to cut ties and kick him out when he turns 18. I dont know how to do this without abandoning him like a lost puppy in a big city. He wants me to try to convince the judge to get him into a treatment facility.

    My mother would want me to make excuses for him, pamper him, and ignore anything bad. And there are others who side with her believe it or not. more than you would believe. the school -all daniel's teachers. they think i am awful and daniel -poor daniel -has an awful mom and thats why he misbehaves.

    He is very charming. another sign of a psychopath. lol. i want to get him into a facility also. but i feel awful about it sometimes. i am too emotional about this whole thing to even think rationally. i mean you see my posts- i am going in circles in my own mind about it. i go from (crying this morning) over the really good part of him that i havent seen lately. and being furious with him for his callous disregard of everyone else. to being scared of him. to feeling sorry for him.

    but through this all one thing i have heard has stuck with me and that is he needs professional help now. so i am going to demand that he get it. if the judge does not order it i will suggest it. that way he has to go. and i will plead with the judge to get him help. I'll let you know what happens.Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Lasted edited by : Apr 16, 2010
  18. tictoc

    tictoc New Member

    I don't have any advice offer, but I wanted to welcome you. My difficult child is only 7 and who knows what the future holds for us. Good luck to you and your family. I am glad to read that you have a loving husband. And, congratulations on renewing your vows.
  19. awhitman

    awhitman Guest

    Thank you so much!!:D
  20. flutterby

    flutterby Fly away!

    I've read most of the replies, but (and I'm not trying to be harsh) I have trouble reading long posts without paragraph breaks. I have visual spatial disorders and I get lost.

    One thing I think may warrant an investigation is PTSD or Complex PTSD. Check out this site: http://www.nctsnet.org/nccts/nav.do?pid=hom_main and see what you think.

    Good luck and welcome to the board.