Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???

[BusynMember]

I just glanced over at "views." I hadn't even known "views" were there before.

We are not alone. Not at all.

 

[BusynMember]

Ok. Go to the Watercooler Forum and look for this thread. Then look to your right and you'll see how many posts are in this thread, but in smaller writing you will also see views.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I am own my way to my own wonderful life. I even combed most of the knots out of my hair today, and may not even cut it. I looked pretty with silver mink hair in a pony tail down my back, a tiny bit of makeup. I love my wrinkles, mainly two lines on each side of my chin. The same as my Mother had. My skin is good. I have lost 15 pounds, 4 lbs last month. It is still slow but I have stepped it up. Already I look better, if I may say so myself. I feel like I have myself back. Almost back.My hair when I was young was a golden red chestnut color, with copper. As I aged I lost all of the warm tones. But I was wrong, Cedar it is not dull ugly gray iron gray today. It is silver mink. I will look on google images and try to describe the color better.

I missed this. I am so happy, Copa! I knew your hair could not be iron gray. 15 pounds, huh? That's really something! So, you are a red headed woman, too.

SWOT?

Red hair?

Did any of you check to see how many people are following this thread?

All I know about that is that there are too many for them all to be my mom and my sister.

:O)

Cedar

Daughter and the kids are planning to leave today or tomorrow. They have been here long enough now that we all are adjusted to one another.

Except for D H.

I am going to miss them!

Son has been Facebook PMing and says I am the one not calling him. Then, he said I could believe whatever I wanted, but that I hadn't called him in a month.

Whatever! He didn't pick up when we did call is the point.

roar

***

Granddaughter and I are going shopping this morning.

Talk to you two later.

P.S. My mother and my sister are in the area. Daughter told me she spotted a FB entry to that effect. I am not even afraid. I am edgy and angry when I think about them and how they think about me.

roar

I will review Jabber's Monty Python clip.

And the Scotsmen parading off without their kilts.

Because under all the edgy and angry...I am a little sick; regretful, sad, mostly wondering why it had to be this way.

I hate that it has to be this way.

But it is what it is.

 

[Copabanana]

Because under all the edgy and angry...I am a little sick; regretful, sad, mostly wondering why it had to be this way.

Dear Cedar

A quick response to this. I have been reacting and responding to and reading the Lil and Jabber Family Reunion thread.

I became teary and vulnerable reading at what happened. Others reacted ho hum, believing that this miscommunication and over-reaction was a normal part of family life particularly those with D C's.

I think the difference between normal families and ours are two things, that I can think of now.

1. In our families their is intent either to abuse or intent to do terrible things irrespective of whether they are abusive or not.

2. In us, this repeated betrayal by those who have defined our world leads to an extraordinary vulnerability across the board, principally a mistrust of ourselves, mistrust of others and the tendency for self-blame.

When I look at the paragraph I just wrote I find it stunning that I was able to have any relationship at all with my FOO. Which leads me to include the tendency towards using cognitive distortion to obfuscate our thinking about any distressing event involving our FOO to fog our thinking about our experience to discredit our perception of what we have seen.

When I started this post I wanted to reassure you that at any point you could decide to see your family. If you read the Family Reunion thread there are very strong posts taking the point of view that puts the D C as the center of the dysfunction.

As I read them I felt that perhaps my experience with my own family made me too sensitive to the foibles of Jabber's and Lil's family. That I was too quick to see intent where there might not have been. That these people got caught up in something they did not understand, and they were the real victims. In other words, I began to see the Family Reunion as I would have if it were me with my family. And it was my fault or that of my son.

To believe the sister was an innocent victim when she allowed Lil and Jabber to drive off believing their child was safe, that there was no intent; believing the sister who dropped off the package, without even calling to the room, was an innocent victim, and the harm was not intentional; that the sister who realized that it was the wrong thing to bring Lil's son to her parents' home, yet did so anyway, without calling Lil and Jabber to problem solve right then; to tell myself that these were harmless decisions without real meaning or consequence. That the real problem after all is the D C. This is what I asked myself to do with my feelings about my sister, when she would do hurtful thing after hurtful thing. Doing this with my brain and heart was wrong.

So, I get back to what I wrote above: intent and vulnerability. There is always the opportunity to make another kind of decision about your family, my family. But we are always left with the question about intent and vulnerability. And what we must do to our perceptions and feelings when the two things clash.

I do not think any longer I would stuff it, bury my feelings about what I have seen in any interaction with my sister. I think I would confront it.

And I know already from long experience what the result of that would be. And it would not be good.

So as long as we live there is the opportunity to choose differently, as I did with my mother. It is a matter of interpretation whether my choice to do so was a good thing for me. I think it was. How could I think otherwise?

COPA

 

[InsaneCdn]

I think the difference between normal families and ours are two things, that I can think of now.

1. In our families their is intent either to abuse or intent to do terrible things irrespective of whether they are abusive or not.

2. In us, this repeated betrayal by those who have defined our world leads to an extraordinary vulnerability across the board, principally a mistrust of ourselves, mistrust of others and the tendency for self-blame.

Point 2 actually covers all of it. Repeated betrayal by those who have defined our world.

Point 1 isn't the case for all of us - much harm and betrayal can happen because of what is NOT done. Harm doesn't have to be intended, and the things done don't have to be terrible, in order for there to be betrayal. And even in highly toxic families, some of the harm will come from things that should have at least been neutral if the whole picture had been normal, but in context, were also harmful.

 

[BusynMember]

Point 2 actually covers all of it. Repeated betrayal by those who have defined our world.

I think perhaps the family was shocked because this betrayal is unusual.

Less so for us, IC, right?

I know I'm always shocked when somebody is angry at a sibling or parent for doing just one thing wrong, unless it is stealing or killing. To me, I would have expected that behavior.

It is easy to be triggered for us.

 

[BusynMember]

So, I get back to what I wrote above: intent and vulnerability. There is always the opportunity to make another kind of decision about your family, my family. But we are always left with the question about intent and vulnerability. And what we must do to our perceptions and feelings when the two things clash?

Stare TRUTH in the face, taking the emotion out of it. With the emotion gone, the movie plays as it is. Emotion is often our downfall.

 

[BusynMember]

very strong posts taking the point of view that puts the D C as the center of the dysfunction.

Yes, Copa. He was. His behavior started a chain of events that damaged a loving family.

 

[InsaneCdn]

But we are always left with the question about intent and vulnerability. And what we must do to our perceptions and feelings when the two things clash?

Our feelings are real, too.

For me, I've had to put those feelings in context of the impact on ME - the intent was far less important, we're not in court here. If I felt vulnerable, then I WAS vulnerable. And some form of betrayal put me there. But it's more important to help that vulnerable person inside me to learn that there are times when it is safe to not be so vulnerable, to not assume the worst, to not be so instantly defensive.

 

[Copabanana]

Yes, Copa. He was. His behavior started a chain of events that damaged a loving family.

I disagree, really. That he is a D C and acts like one does not mean others are not responsible for their behavior.

I will give you an example that is painful to me 20 years later.

My sister had twins. When we went to a restaurant, she permitted her toddlers to climb all over everything, onto and over the backs of banquettes and under the tables of others. Her girls would whoop and scream and there was no intervention or comment by her or her husband.

A few years later she and I and our kids were at an outdoor BBQ at the home of an elderly Uncle and Aunt. My hyperactive son, then 6 or so, was sitting at a picnic table across from me and complained about some childish thing.

The next thing I knew my son screamed out, "Don't pinch me. She pinched my back." My uncle's wife was standing behind him at the time.

A few minutes later I entered the house. My sister was there talking with my Aunt. I heard her say this: "I am so, so sorry he did that to you. I am so embarrassed. I am so embarassed that he did that and that COPA allowed it."

What in the world did he do wrong?

10 minutes later my sister came up to me and said this. "I'm sorry. I was probably out of line." I looked her and said nothing.

Everybody is responsible for behaving correctly. Even if our D C's are bad, bad, bad to the bone, it does not give others a pass to act worse.

 

[BusynMember]

Everybody is responsible for behaving correctly. Even if our D C's are bad, bad, bad to the bone, it does not give others a pass to act worse.

I agree, but I don't think they acted worse. This is just my own personal take on everything. Nobody has to agree with me as we are all different with different experiences.

Your sister's twins were minors and babies so she was responsible 100% for either making them behave in that restaurant or leaving to spare other patrons of the place. Same when they were six. It was inappropriate for your uncle's wife to pinch your son. But she did take responsibility, which probably made him feel better about it.

I don't blame any of these siblings in this family for wanting Difficult Child, who is 20 and an adult, OUT of their parents home. I do think youngest was wrong for breaking a promise. I don't know her well enough to know if she is constantly breaking promises. Breaking one promise, with the intention of tough love, hypocritical or not, doesn't make her a bad person. It makes her in my opinion wrong about this one incident.

In general, although extended family, this is not their circus, not their monkey. They should again only in my own opinion left it alone and not gotten involved, but loving families try to help and when a disturbed individual is the one they are trying to help it is likely to cause mass chaos and disharmony. Just like our family's of origin, dysfunctional people like to divide and conquer and then get their own feelings hurt while everyone else is hurting more.

Reminds me of my divide and conquer sister. SHe disowns brother f irst for being ugly, then grandmother (not sure why), then me and so it goes. Sure, her life is chaos. She's the perpetrator of the chaos so she lives it.

When my son was trying to act like a bad a** in his 20's and pretended he might hit me, I never would have let him stay with anybody else in the family, IF I HAD HAD ONE...ha! Just because somebody has not yet hit somebody doesn't mean they won't. They have no business posturing that way if they are not dangerous to others.

In short, yes, everyone owns what they do. But chaos seems to follow certain people around. Until my 40's, chaos followed me around because I chose chaos. Once I stopped, then only my FOO, when involved with me (which was not that often) was chaotic in my life. When chaos is your constant companion, then you have a part in it most of the time. It's not Jabber's family in constant chaos. It is Difficult Child. Therefore, although they all own what they do, my guess is that until Difficult Child learns to control himself and make good choices, just like all Difficult Child, he will cause chaos wherever he goes. And his chaos is far worse than any I ever had...it's ok to disagree with me. I like to hear other opinions. This is just how I personally feel. Could be way wrong.

 

[Copabanana]

But she did take responsibility, which probably made him feel better about it.

It was my sister who apologized to me, that she had gone behind my back and talked about me and my son to my Aunt, taking it upon herself to apologize for my son's behavior and my lack of responsibility for same.

I never had a grievance against my Aunt. While I felt that she had no right to pinch him, if she did at all, this transgression was not as bothersome as the response of my sister.

That my sister thought it was her appropriate role to make apologies for us. That she felt that she could or should throw my son and I under the bus to people we hardly even knew. Because we embarrassed her.

We are her family. Her loyalty should have been to us. My son had done nothing. And she threw us under the bus.

To this day I have not gone to see that Aunt and Uncle, after 6 years here in this City. I guess it did hurt me. After all.

That we have difficult children should be something that brings out heart in others. Not rejection. Not criticism. Not embarrassment. Especially in our families.

We need heart. If other people do not have it for us, is their choice.

But I for one will not gang up on myself and my child because others feel the need to reject us, or to scapegoat us, or exclude us, or drop us like hot potatoes.

Yes we are messy. Yes we are emotional. Yes we get into difficult situations. We walk planks and do not know how to get back. But I will no longer excuse the bad behavior of others towards us.

There were so many ways that the hurt to Lil and Jabber and their Son could have been avoided.

Son should not have been in his grandparents' house. Neither Lil or Jabber brought him there. I for one think Jabber should have intervened sooner to remove him. He did not. To me, that was a mistake.

Who can fault him? Lil and he hoped beyond hope that their parents' support could help. We were all cheering and clapping, when Grandpa ran the show.

Still, the siblings handled it badly. That D C had a fit does not take away the siblings' responsibility to their family. I do not mean take responsibility for SON. I do not mean that he should not have left the house ASAP. I mean act right to Lil and Jabber. To communicate directly to them and not behind their back. To not judge them for things about which they know not one thing. To think about the effects of an action on them, and on SON.

To give them heart. That is what I am talking about here. Lil and Jabber deserved heart. Their son did too.

It could well be that Lil and Jabber's son has a diagnosis whereby he cannot understand in the same way the rest of us do. And needs help and intervention to do so.

It is possible that right now he does not have the tools to control his outbursts. That he has a diagnosis and requires treatment to help him gain this control.

It could well be that he is a victim in this. I am not forgiving him or how he acts, if he has full capacity and control. He may not.

I hope Lil and Jabber can get him to a Neuropsychologist and Psychiatrist to get a proper diagnosis. Perhaps the events of these past couple of days will prompt them to do what they can if they can.

It has me. Now that my son is back in the BIG CITY in a treatment facility I will see if he is willing to go with me to a Neuropsychologist and Psychiatrist of my choosing, so that we can get some diagnostic clarity.

I am no longer ashamed and overwhelmed. None of this my fault. None of this is my son's fault. He was born to drug-addicted parents. He was thrown away like trash by an uncaring system. He was left to die of a mortal illness because to others he was not worth enough even to test as an infant. None of this is his fault. Or mine.

None of this is Lil or Jabber's fault. It may be that their son needs help that he has not yet received.

Besides M and you guys, few people in our life have given me a hand with my child.

We are all entitled to the benefit of doubt, at least. If not more. We do not always receive it.

It is not wrong that we expect from our families, understanding and respect, if not heart.

 

[BusynMember]

That my sister thought it was her appropriate role to make apologies for us. That she felt that she could or should throw my son and I under the bus to people we hardly ever knew. Because we embarrassed her. We are her family. Her loyalty should have been us. My son had done nothing. And she threw us under the bus.

Totally agree.

That we have difficult children should be something that brings out heart in others. Not rejection. Not criticism. Not embarrassment. Especially in our families.

Yes, and in a normally loving family, they would all be going out of their ways to help and support you. But we don't have that, do wel? (sigh)

t could well be that Lil and Jabber's son has a diagnosis whereby he cannot understand in the same way the rest of us do. And needs help and intervention to do so.

Although it is true (he does have Aspie traits), Copa, so did I. I was basically on my own with my first husband who was NOT nice to me, but I didn't think I deserved him to be nice. I was neurologically atypical and had a rather severe mood disorder. And the only one who could do anything to help me, really, was me. Lil and Jabber are wonderful people and would have given him the moon if he had been willing to cooperate with professionals. It is only himself holding himself back.

It is possible that right now he does not have the tools to control his outbursts. That he has a diagnosis and requires treatment to help him gain this control.

He may not. Like IC, I had outbursts too until I got put on the right medication. But again it is up to Difficult Child to find out why he has outbursts so that he can get the help he needs. It was sort of a backwards blessing that my parents didn't care about me or believe there was anything different or wrong with me because I either got help myself or I stayed the way I was. And that wasn't going to happen. I was determined to get good help. And first husband was no support either. I had to find my own resources, then use them. (I am the only one in my FOO to seek help although all of us needed that help).

I am no longer ashamed and overwhelmed. None of this my fault. None of this is my son's fault. He was born to drug-addicted parents. He was thrown away like trash by an uncaring system. He was left to die of a mortal illness because to others he was not worth enough even to test as an infant. None of this is his fault. Or mine

It's very sad. Goneboy is a Hep B carrier, but low grade. On the other hand, Sonic was born with cocaine in his system, syphillis, and a heart defect. He had emergency surgery as an infant. His birthmother named him then walked out of the hospital AMA. I often feel very blessed that Sonic is such a fantastic young man and think that perhaps his birthmother was damaged but kind. Poverty does bad things to good people when they have no way to eat. I've never walked in the shoes of anyone who grew up in a warzone in Chicago where there are no companies to hire the citizens and no safety for anybody. I know nothing of Sonic's birthfather, but feel the same about him...bad cards dealt him, no job prospects, generational welfare, no companies to hire those who want jobs...Sonic still tried. He never quit trying. He is my hero.
Not all people with Sonic's challenges, however, can turn out to be like Sonic.Sonic was eager to get help too and complied wholeheartedly with his interventions. Is that maybe the difference? Acceptance of being different and needing help and denial of it? What do you think?

Besides M and you guys, few people in our life have given me a hand with my child.

Copa, you are not alone or the only one. I had nobody. I didn't even tell my FOO most of the stuff when it happened because I knew they'd just look down on me more. That's how my FOO is. And they'd have looked down on my kids. Thankfully, right now my kids are really doing well, but there was a time when two were not and I could have used honest sympathy. I did get it from somewhere without judgment...I forgot. How could I? My sister who died of cancer.

Things may work out for your son in the end. We do not know the future. People change. Their priorities change. Just keep him close to your heart. He is very attached to you. You will always have his love and it matters a lot to him, I'm sure, to know that no matter what he does to make you not care, you still love him.

 

[Copabanana]

You will always have his love and it matters a lot to him, I'm sure, to know that no matter what he does to make you not care, you still love him.

Thank you SWOT. You have helped me so much through this.

I was determined to get good help. And first husband was no support either. I had to find my own resources, then use them.

Two things come to mind, SWOT. First, Lil and Jabber's son is very young. I for one do not think it is inappropriate that they help him connect with professionals. After all, I believe IC's son was hardly younger than theirs. He had just become an adult.

Second, not everybody has your strengths SWOT. That you did it alone does not mean that others can. You have skills for example that my son has not displayed. I would imagine you had them as a young woman too. You are a problem solver. You take responsibility. Too much, sometimes. You are motivated. You have an idea of what you need. What you want. My son has none of these capacities as yet.

The situations Lil and Jabber and I find ourselves in our difficult. We know our sons cannot live with us. We know there needs to be boundaries. We also know our kids need probably do need some support form us.

What we do not know yet is now is how to negotiate this balance between enabling and responsibility for an adult child who has limits that may be intrinsic, not a matter of choice.

SWOT you should not have had to be alone and negotiate this alone as an afraid and vulnerable and sad young woman.

That I was alone my whole life, too, is a great sadness for me.

That we did it ourselves is to our credit and is our pride. That some people can do it is great. Not everybody can.

I for one have to find the right role for myself with my son. And I have not yet done so. And it is hard.

PS Lil weighed in. She does not think her son would consent to diagnostic evaluations. Still, I will try with my own.

 

[BusynMember]

Two things come to mind, SWOT. First, Lil and Jabber's son is very young. I for one do not think it is inappropriate that they help him connect with professionals. After all, I believe IC's son was hardly younger than theirs. He had just become an adult.

I don't think it's wrong to help with resources, but he won't use them. I started looking for resources at 18, but didn't use any until 23. It's all about what you do with them when you have them. I also don't think 20 is that young. I look at my Jumper at 19 and s he is a young lady. It depends on the person...whether they want to accept responsibility or not. Sonic is young as far as interests due to his autism, but he is not immature in the way of shirking responsibility. These are just my own ideas. I was married at 20, yet very immature.

Second, not everybody has your strengths SWOT. That you did it alone does not mean that others can.

LOL, Copa. I was such a chihldish mess in my entire 20s and early 30s that I had NO coping skills. I had no maturity. I had horrendous social skills. I kept losing job after job due to my disability that I knew nothing about. The only thing that made me that different from those young men are that I wanted to get better and I did not have a family to lean on. So I had to do it myself or never move forward and half the time I thought I never would. Do not think that the strength I have gained by so many years of therapy and self-help and existing with limitations are skills I always had. I had to learn to be strong. I was a full blown disaster who managed to try hard enough to become a strong and happy person.

I spent TEN WEEKS in a psychiatric hospital when I was 23. They wouldn't have taken me if I hadn't been a trainwreck. Although I went in voluntarily, it was because I was pregnant and suicidally depressed and had been that way since age thirteen (on and off, mostly on) and I needed to find out what was wrong, no matter how ominous, because of the baby. Before that, I was afraid to know. I was afraid they'd tell me I was schizophrenic. I was not just depressed but had depersonalization and derealization two extremely scary symptoms that to this day are the worse feelings I have ever had. It's like feeling dead. Hard to explain. You may want to look it up. This is a less extreme form of dissociation and is caused by anxiety and trauma...

They don't let you stay that long in psychiatric wards anymore. Pity they don't let you get well before discharging you. However, when discharged I was doing better on antidepressants, but was still not well. That took at least another two decades with my getting better each year because I wanted a normal life so badly. The only skill I had that anyone else lacks is the will to work toward a recovery. Anyone can do that as it takes no real "skill" at all.

I for one have to find the right role for myself with my son. And I have not yet done so. And it is hard.

You are a wonderful mother because you care about him. Yes, I went it alone and it would have helped to have had love. I would have done worse, say, living at home with enabling parents. That I didn't need. A soft word, encouragement, and some caring once in a while would have given me even more motivation to be my best. All the time I tried to be better I had to hear those words in my head th at said, "You're lazy," "you're stupid," "you're no good", "you're selfish," etc. etc. etc. Your son does not have to live with those words in his head. He hears you telling him that you love him.

I don't believe my m other even pretended to love me or ever said those words once I left the house. I don't remember her saying them at all, but I'm sure she must have sometimes. If she did say them, they were lies.

You need to do what feels right because THAT takes care of YOUR needs. Your son is precious, but so are you. This is about what BOTH of you need, not just him. Don't do anything that you can't live with. Use your instincts. They are loving. They are kind. They will serve you and your son very well.

 

[BusynMember]

To Copa, Cedar, Insane, anyone reading,
I go visit my grandson out-of-state tomorrow so I may be on in the morning, but will probably not be on much while I'm there. I hear it's going to be 105 degrees.

My grandson and I will be staying inside with the air conditioning.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

1. In our families their is intent either to abuse or intent to do terrible things irrespective of whether they are abusive or not.

2. In us, this repeated betrayal by those who have defined our world leads to an extraordinary vulnerability across the board, principally a mistrust of ourselves, mistrust of others and the tendency for self-blame.

A question of intent...yes. This dovetails nicely with SWOT's contention that our FOO are "morally bankrupt". It is difficult to believe it is what it looks and feels like. I find myself wondering what kind of person I am, to think such things.

"Repeated betrayal by those who have defined our worlds...."

This is extraordinary, Copa.

The criminal, newly wakened
wonder
at its crime

2. In us, this repeated betrayal by those who have defined our world leads to an extraordinary vulnerability across the board, principally a mistrust of ourselves, mistrust of others and the tendency for self-blame.

It does, doesn't it.

Which leads me to include the tendency towards using cognitive distortion to obfuscate our thinking about any distressing event involving our FOO to fog our thinking about our experience to discredit our perception of what we have seen.

Savaged dead and stolen
blind

Yes! That is why I am always wondering what kind of person could think about their own family the way I seem to be thinking about mine. Yet, the pieces fit seamlessly.

Cinderella was very many good things. She was also hated with vicious intensity.

Oh, great.

And they do say that the psychology of the abusive relationship is to convince the victim they did not see what they saw or hear what they heard.

A blind and savaged child recall
it's first and bloodied tears
Metallic
copper colored fears

Recall shattered reflections
insane turnings and twistings

White candles
in an Innocent's mirror

Gaslighting.

Is my family so clever? And I forever am not getting the win. I can only conclude there is jealousy there. Or hatred. When did it begin? Were we hated as little kids? Why then do they tell us they love us? That is the set up. Of course it is. That is what we think we want. That is how they bait the trap.

Their actions are hateful.

But I think there are two prongs to this. The one is hatred and punishment; the other, guilt and recrimination at having foolishly broken something perfect.

TO CLARIFY: In our minds and hearts, the mother was perfect, would have been perfect, except for our not having been perfect enough. She had no choice but to fall apart; she felt so badly; she was out of control.

This is how our psyches work about everything.

If something is perfect, it is because it was always perfect and easily so; if something is dirtied or broken or wrong...we are guilty. There must have been something we could have done. Given the raging, out of control nature of the consequences to us as children who had no defense, we would have had to have invented this dynamic to maintain the illusion of control over our situations, and over the situations of those we were supposed to protect though we may secretly have wished them elsewhere.

What a nasty little brew we were forced to drink.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

In my family of origin, mine and D H pain and confusion were interpreted as vulnerability and things progressed from that point.

This is from Lil and Jabber's thread.

I agree with you on this.

Healthy families communicate.
Unhealthy families see opportunity.
And seek to take advantage of the other in the unfortunate situation in which they find themselves. And heap on more.

I am struck at how generalized are the behaviors of our children.

This seems to be near universal:

Our Difficult Child

Does not understand or care how behaviors are experienced and perceived by others.
Nor does s/he care about the consequences of said behavior or feel responsibility for them.

Thus does not take responsibility to change their behaviors.

Rather they see the effects as the responsibility of others, in fact caused by others.

And insist that change needs to come from others not them.

This takes the form of:

Disparaging others, including the victim of the behavior itself, for overreacting.

And minimizing or even denying the upsetting behaviors themselves.

And if their terms are not accepted, they leave or do something similar.

Sounds like our mothers and sisters in relation to us, doesn't it Cedar?

M over and over again has said how struck he is that my son's attitudes and behaviors are so like those of my Mother and sister, even though there is no genetic relationship.

I do not like where I am going with this because I do not want to accept that my son is like my family.

Why then do they tell us they love us? That is the set up. Of course it is.

No. I do not think so. I think they think they are loving. And to the extent that they are able, they do love.

That is what we think we want.

I do not think they say they love us to set us up. At least in my family they don't. They say the words. And they believe themselves. And they may feel pretty when they say them. They lie to themselves as well as to us. They say I love you like they say thank you. It is hardly more than that.

That is how they bait the trap.

Again I do not think they use love to bait the trap. At least in my family, I know my Mother loved me in the way she could.

I see it this way: We need love. We have nobody else. We have no way to know then that healthy parental love is something different than our parents' love. We fool ourselves. We do want love.
We are stuck.

I think it is us that bait the trap. We figure out: This is what they want. This behavior will generate more loving responses. This behavior leads to more cruel and hysterical responses.

I am good when I __.
I am bad when I ___.

In our minds and hearts, the mother was perfect, would have been perfect, except for our not having been perfect enough. She had no choice but to fall apart; she felt so badly; she was out of control.

This is how our psyches work about everything.

Yes. If I were a better baby or girl...I could make it so Mama did not fall apart, get hysterical or lose control.

Hence, my reaction to my Mother's screams when she was at the Board and Care Home after I had told her she had to leave my house. Because while she was here, I had regressed 60 years and had become the tiny child that lived and died based upon her reactions.

To keep her happy I was at her beck and call 24 hours a day. And M would not let it go on. He stopped it and told me No more. It was his authority that permitted me to have a voice. I do not think I could have spoken for myself with my Mother in this circumstance.

There must have been something we could have done.

Yes. The responsibility is limitless, bottomless. There is no way to accept the sense it does not work. Because the responsibility is always to try more, do more. Because it is always your fault to fix it. Your responsibility to clean up.

Hence my reactions to my son's moods and distress.

Given the raging, out of control nature of the consequences to us as children who had no defense, we would have had to have invented this dynamic to maintain the illusion of control over our situations

Virtually all children will use this dynamic in order to maintain the illusion of control over their lives.

It would be too horrible for them to accept that they live in a world that is so arbitrary and so cruel...and there is no escape from it....and nobody else to help them....so they invent the illusion that they control it.

That if they try really hard to do what Mommy wants...
If they could only do it perfectly and never fail....
If I am a good girl, Mommy will love me.

But she does not love me because I am a dirty little girl.
She does not love me because I make mistakes.
She does not love me because I got mad. Or cried.

I think in the Stockholm Syndrome which I have never studied the same dynamic is at work. There is an identification with the aggressor, the parent, in order to feel some control over a situation where they have none at all, the victim comes to love the kidnapper, and thus to please them.

Hi Cedar.

 

[InsaneCdn]

They say I love you like they say thank you. It is hardly more than that.

Or, they are in love with the appearance of being loving. Which means they really fall apart when our actions and reactions and words to not create that nice little picture for them.

 

[BusynMember]

Hi there from beautiful Missouri. I'm alone today until Bart and Junior get here. Bart is at work and gets Junior from daycare after.

I am interested in the ways dysfunctional families work. And how children react to it. There are similarities--its our faults, divide and conquer, meanness about us spoken to us, either too much control or raving chaos but poor boundaries...yet all different. My mother was sensitive and if I, as an infant, hurt her by not letting her cuddle me easily, she just put me down and propped the bottle. She controlled the absurd...my hair length (and I did keep it long), whom I dated, what dolls I could own, what style clothing I could wear...but cared nothing about my learning coping skills, boundaries, behavior that is appropriate, manners and just write off school. Flunk. Who cares as long as that blond haired boy you brought home and said was Jewish was REALLY Jewish. And if Mom decided I lied about that, well, a night raid. Nutty.

And as children you two tried to please mom so she'd love you. I was sensitive, overly so, like my mom, vulnerable, cried on a dime. Sometimes I tried very hard to make her love me. Other times I challenged her and she was shocked and horrified and it was ME...I was bad. Must.be.punished in insidious ways. Make EVERYONE think I'm bad. That's what I'll do said the Mama bear. Now eat your porridge (except we had no sit down meals and ate what we wanted at will).

I am not sure whose mother is/was the craziest. They were all crazy in their ways. I am not sure who had the sickest sister or the meanest sister. I just know the family dynamics were so different with t he same results. Kick the scapegoat.

Rinse. Repeat.

Not any more, kids. Not anymore.