And so it goes


Well-Known Member
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and perspective. Some replies and opinions can be straightforward and to the point, some folks are not ready to read that. We are all coming from a place of deep hurt. Everyone has their own way of coping. Whether it be to hope or not to hope. There is also the issue of how we can read emotion and suppose intent “between the lines”. It’s hard sometimes to clarify in written word. I haven’t been on CD for some time now, so I don’t know all of the backstory to this exchange. What I do know is that at one time I was hurt by a comment made. I don’t think that was the intention of the member. I think it revealed my vulnerability and rawness. Kind of what I see with my grands. They are easily triggered and offended. That’s trauma in action. Spilling over.
We are all coming from some very difficult and heart wrenching ordeals. This is supposed to be a soft place to land for battle weary parents. Not everyone has to like one another, their style of writing or how we choose to deal with our challenges, but I do think we should be kind.
I agree.


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So now I think I know why I was drawn to this women's group. She lived it and gets it and does not judge.
I know that was hard to do-to share with others. At our church, I don't really feel that I can share much with most of who I come into contact with. It seems like the typical response is a "that's too bad," which ends up making me feel worse. It's as though its brushed aside. I don't know--maybe that's not the intent of those who have responded that way at all; maybe their just uncomfortable and don't know what to say. On my part, I just wish at times that someone would put their arms around me, hug me, and say, "I'm so, so sorry. Can I pray for you right now?"


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Forgot to say, RN---I'm sorry about the frustration with your son's revelation that he doesn't like welding after all. That would be frustrating, and I can understand your apprehension about his being at home at the moment. On the other hand, he has benefited from taking and persevering through the course, and that in itself is quite an accomplishment and shows a steadfastness and solidity that would have been missing during his drug-using era. So he has grown. May G-d lead him into a position that would be fulfilling to him and meet his financial needs at the same time.


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I don't have specific experience with these websites/tests (that I can remember) but there are loads and loads of ways to get clarity about vocational direction.
Princeton Review Career Test
My next move
O*NET Interests Profiler.
The MAPP Career Test Career Strengths Test


100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Yes thank you all so much. Copa I will mention to him.

He'd really like to be a mailman. He loves the idea of being out in the open air and delivering mail and interacting with people. He has applied for a mailman position here as well as a few other delivery type jobs so we shall see!

Beta yes I understand you wanting to have someone say and do that and that is exactly what happened when I told them my story! I sat back and observed for some time as other women told their painful stories; one young girl's husband left her and was an addict in their home town in Florida, one's 15 year old son had attempted suicide, one struggling in marriage and husband cannot find work and many many other stories. When I saw their vulnerability and tears I knew that I was in the right place.


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I don't really feel that I can share much with most of who I come into contact with.
My experience has been thus, too. My oldest girlfriends ignore the subject. I broke with one of them for many years because each time I spoke with her she'd say, Oh. I didn't remember.

I see it differently now. I feel it was wrong of me to not offer understanding and heart to her as she was. And we have since made up. But I did tell her, "I felt bad, that you didn't remember, what has been the most painful experience of my life." I felt I had to speak up for myself and my needs. But why couldn't I have said, at the onset, I need a hug. Or I need you to pay attention to my pain, too. I seem to have chosen girlfriends over my lifetime that are self-interested. I am a good listener (usually). Why did I choose friendships that were not more balanced? That's on me.

I have had the hardest time finding support (in the flesh). I feel like I must have morphed into, and show up as a 7 headed monster. I am very, very slow to make myself vulnerable to people. That's changing now because I seem to be changing the people I choose to be around. There are people who are willing to accept and embrace vulnerability.


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He'd really like to be a mailman. He loves the idea of being out in the open air and delivering mail and interacting with people.
Oh wow! This sounds great. So. Maybe he does know what he wants! The UPS drivers and the mail carriers in my town seem content! They seem to stay in their jobs forever.
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100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
I have really found that I'm at a place now in my life where I can really see others' struggles and realize that we ALL HAVE THEM.

The folks on here may feel we have worse struggles and maybe we do or we've been through more but I just see things so much differently now than I used to.

I don't know if it's because I'm older and wiser or it's my women's groups or faith or what but it has changed me.

I am much more compassionate and less judgmental.


Sending good vibes...
I am much more compassionate and less judgmental.

I think for me I feel the same way. I honestly feel we all have lessons to learn and by those lessons we become less rigid, less righteous, less boxed in with our perceptions of how things are supposed to be. I have a long way to "grow" but I'm most definitely not the same person I was even 10yrs. ago. Quite frankly, I'm glad. That person saw things in black and white. This was due to my upbringing and I'm not bashing my parents. They were wonderful. But I think it's carried on from generation to generation until we break lose of the restrictions of who we thought we were and what we're supposed to look like (inside).

You know the old saying "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones"? Well, I ended up in the glass house so to speak. Sons did not turn out like I expected or hoped, marriage fell apart because of alcoholism, death of loved ones, got hurt, became vulnerable, tried to survive etc. It sure changes us.


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Back again! I'm so hit and miss now. I am sorry. I love you all and feel for you and your struggles. Yes, I still have mine, but they are so small as to not matter in the grand scheme of things.

First and foremost - Leafy, you have 100% of my respect and admiration for taking on your troubled grands now on top of still dealing with your girls. My heart just breaks for you when I read about Rain and her leg...but you can't force someone to go to a doctor. I'd be terrified if I were you and I'm sure I'd have wound up screaming about it. Your grace under fire is something to strive for. I offer you my biggest hugs.

Today I asked M. Do I have to put aside the idea that J will have a career?

M answered, yes. How many people really have a career that they work in? Think about the people you've known through me, these past 10 years, how many work in a career? None. That J have a normal life, be productive, is enough. It's a lot.

I agree with M. I had many dreams for my son you know. He was SO smart - above average in every class when he was young. He was lazy and bored in high school but I thought it was something that he'd get over. I didn't do the best in high school myself, but was Dean's list every semester of year in college, graduated magna cum laude.

But my son isn't me. He isn't going to be a lawyer or a doctor or any profession. I'd be THRILLED BEYOND BELIEF if he got training in a trade. But, like RN's son, I can see him getting that and then deciding he doesn't like it.

Now I just want him to hold and job and pay his bills. If he works as a dishwasher or a bus boy or a cook in a paper hat...well...someone has to do those jobs, right? I'm not better than them because I went to law school and held the same job for 25+ years and counting. I'm just different from he is different from me.

The ladies that were somewhat abrasive are no longer on this site. After reading your post I remembered another one that recently left. I do think that most of us have good intentions here.

Gosh, I hope I wasn't one of them. :916blusher: If I ever offended anyone I really do apologize. It was never intentional.

So many people are gone from when I posted regularly. But people can be so touchy over the internet. Meanings are easily missed or misinterpreted. I know one member blocked me - came right out and said she didn't like me and never wanted to see my posts again. For the life of me I never could figure out what I'd done to offend her other than disagree with her about something totally off-topic on the watercooler and that was when she told me she had blocked me earlier!

I do think everyone here means well. I don't think we all express it well. Including me.

He'd really like to be a mailman. He loves the idea of being out in the open air and delivering mail and interacting with people. He has applied for a mailman position here as well as a few other delivery type jobs so we shall see!

Actually, that's a great career! The US Postal Service generally doesn't start people on routes. They start them in the post office, loading trucks etc. and usually part-time, but even then the pay is great! It's amazing he's saved SO much money RN! You may have hit a snag with the welding job...but he does have a skill to fall back on if he ever is desperate or can't find anything else! So there's that.

To all of you ladies - and any men who may be among us - Keep posting. Keep sharing. A burden shared is a burden...well maybe not halved, but hopefully eased a bit off of your heart.


New Leaf

Well-Known Member
New Leaf I just wanted to post to lend my support and send a virtual hug to you. I so wish I was your neighbor as well. I think what you are doing with your grandchildren is amazing ♥
Thank you ahhjeez. Hugs right back at you. I am hoping that my grands will heal. It is a very rocky road right now with my eldest grand and I do question my capability to help him. All I can do is try my best. The rest is up to him, and God. And me. By that I mean that I have not been able to shake the fear that he may hurt himself or his siblings, or even me, if the episodes continue to escalate. I hope not, but I have to be ready to accept the alternative. Which would be residential treatment. The social worker will not allow another severe event in my home. But, that may just be the help he needs, a place that is more regulated.​

Copa I so hope you keep posting on this forum.
Me too.

I worry that I'm falling into the "“Lest I grow cold” category. I did not seek him out to see if I could help him. I can't have him come into my home (and never have since I've lived there for over a year and a half) because if he were to come into my home, I fear I would not have the courage to make him leave and for certain he would not want to on his own.
I think we have a responsibility to practice self love. It’s what we wish for our adult children. That means to me, not allowing others choices to effect us so detrimentally that we can’t function. It’s unhealthy. It’s a hard thing to practice with our own. The dynamics involved force me to look inward constantly. One thing I am learning is that I have a propensity to care more about their issues than they do themselves. I have to guard my heart and learn to respond rather than react. I do know that my two cannot live with me. Been there, done that. They did not get better in my home and made the rest of us miserable. This is a tough spot, we are all in wrestling with the insanity of our adult children’s choices. I have gone through the stages of grieving several times. Lest I grow cold vs lest I go down with their ship sailing erratically towards the storm. Pulling back and giving it to God is not coldness, it’s self preservation. I have to keep reminding myself of this.

I worry sometimes that my detachment is cold and heartless. I get confused sometimes "in the moment". I journal so that I don't forget the many instances that have put me in danger so I don't let my guard down. But it is painful sometimes "being strong". My mind plays games on me and makes me think I'm bad, cold, heartless.
Me too, JP. We are faced with out of the ordinary challenges with our wayward adult kids. The rabbit hole is ever beckoning for me to jump back in to the fray. That’s addiction and entanglement talking. Dazed and confused with the constant onslaught of unacceptable behaviors, that’s where my two under the influence would have me. Unable to make clear decisions, constantly fretting over their choices. Unable to make a stand for myself. That’s obsession, not love, and no way to live. I have to put the responsibility for the necessity to pull back, where it lies, on my two.
I am not cold or heartless and neither are you.

He didn't want to wait hours in the ER for nothing. I told him I was sorry he was so sick and text him here and there but for the most part didn't receive any replies (only once)
This is my story too. Except the texting part. My two make appearances here and there but otherwise are pretty much incommunicado, no contact. That is their choice. They know for the most part that I won’t enable them.

I have to remember that my thought process is not his. Most logical people when faced with illness would get themselves to the doctors. We'd take care of ourselves, respect ourselves enough to do so. It doesn't make sense and I've determined it's beyond my comprehension.
That’s my spin on it too. Beyond comprehension.

I also have to bring this love and forgiveness to myself. And that implies that I practice self respect. I don't accept unacceptable behavior from people and that includes me. In order to feel ok about me, I discipline myself to treat everyone in acceptable ways. I can set boundaries calmly, and quietly . There is strength in being in control of my feelings and being calm.
Calmness, being
present. I have to work on that. Especially now. Any kind of tension or anxiety the kids pick up on and it triggers them. I have a lot to learn about behavior and my grands are teaching me. Especially where behaviors are driven by past traumas. The ordinary reaction would be punishment, but now, my focus has to be on what my grands do correctly, instead of consequences for bad behavior. Sometimes I can’t wrap my head around that, I was a pretty cut and dry authoritarian.
How many people are out in the world who have suffered similarly as children, and are still carrying around the baggage? I don’t condone unacceptable behavior and I don’t want to be around it, but I wonder what is the issue behind it?
I hope that there is no judgement here.but if so, I will not read those posts of any who judge. I feel like a sister to all of you. We ALL know pain and loss. A few of us even know the horrid death of an angel too young to leave us.
Busy, I don’t think there is judgement, just different perspectives and opinions, different personalities. I have seen very few instances of posters being judge mental. Members for the most part have been kind. I remember posting strong posts when I reached the anger phase of grieving my two.

The way I often treat myself "mentally" is feeling sad because sons are not well, telling myself I shouldn't be comfortable if they are not comfortable, taking on blame and guilt for the way they are etc. This is not treating "myself" correctly. It is unacceptable behavior to beat myself up internally.
It is unacceptable to beat ourselves up internally. It is important to look at the emotions, the feelings that cause this. I believe the big underlying factor is grief and all of the stages. The difference being, we are grieving the life choices of loved ones. Grief and loss when a loved one passes is different, there is a finality to death. This journey we are on begets repetitive grief. At least in my case. Each new chapter of my twos addiction and use, homelessness, jail, health issues, poses another challenge to process feelings and avoid entanglement, the rabbit hole. It is a constant effort to remain stable and present. It is so easy to backslide and start rolling those tapes searching for reasons and answers. Especially since my two have blamed their choices on me.

But I still sometimes realize that my own mind is abusing me, blaming me, torturing me, telling me I said or did the wrong things.
I go there as well, overthinking. Finding fault with the parenting mistakes I made. Rehashing those moments. What if, what if? I have to shake myself
out of that. Living in the past does not help. Stuck. It’s where my twos addiction would have me be, so overcome and tormented by my own mistakes, taking on blame for my twos choices.
New Leaf. I hope I was not the one who hurt you. I could be cavalier. And thoughtless. I think I was "high horse." Is that the word? It is not the fault of the tenderhearted person, who is hurt. We need to assume we're all tenderhearted. Because we are.
No, no Copa. I hope the same, that in my venting, my replies and posts that actually became reminders to myself to stay the course, I hope that I have not offended anyone. We are all tender hearted. I agree. We have been under siege by the chaos of our beloveds lives and our own self torment.
You see. It's not so easy to know if one is the victim or victimizer. Because all of us can be both.
That is what I am writing of, understanding the emotions and background of one’s actions and behaviors. Not to say we should tolerate unacceptable behavior, there are boundaries, but we all make mistakes. There is a quote I read about acting out of the ordinary in difficult situations. It makes sense. Which ties into your thoughts below.

Because it's so, so easy to be triggered and to think one responds in the best interest, but really all it is, is ego defense trying to bury feeling, by dominating and controlling the conversation. There's strength and responsibility in ignoring. I have a hard time with ignoring. I react.
Me too. Hubs was a master at ignoring. Going silent. It caused me a lot of anxiety in the early years of our marriage. It was a trigger for me to conjure up all kinds of scenarios.
That means we have the right to say what we need, right? I don't see that this is wrong. As long as we try hard to anticipate the feelings of others, and to take these in account. And recognize that there is not one of us who is not growing. That means we are all of us limited. We need each other to be complete.
Leafy i am so sorry for the pain. I hear in your post. It has to be horrible dealing with 2 generations of trauma.
Thank you Tried. It is horrible. It is reliving the angst all over again through my grands. They are repeating what they lived, that in turn triggers me hurling me back to memories of the past like a time warp scene in a movie. Their father and mother were extremely violent and toxic for one another. We all witnessed far too many crazy episodes. I can only imagine what my grands have been through.
Make sure you allow yourself some time to decompress. It will help everyone involved if you can take care of yourself. You deserve to have a life as well. Prayers going out to you.
The only time I have is in the wee hours of the morning. We are going through a really tough period right now. I am hoping that more help and services will kick in, but the agencies are overwhelmed and slow moving. It is frustrating to say the least.
Rain left the abusive man. That is something. There's no way that is nothing. I see people all around me who have stopped using meth. Where I live was ground zero in the 90's. Some people stop. There's no way to know what Rain will do. If she's using less Meth, how is that bad? Less could lead to even less.
This is true, Copa. Small steps towards change. I do have hope, but there is also a pragmatic thought process factoring in. Maybe that’s the not hoping part that Busy is writing of. That I have been at this juncture with Rain so many times, if I don’t get my hopes up, then if she backslides again, I don’t have that far to fall myself. It’s like saying I am not holding my breath. That is so opposite of Victor Frankls teachings “If we take man as he really is, we make him worse. But if we overestimate him … we promote him to what he really can be. So we have to be idealists, in a way — because then we wind up as the true, the real realists.”
I suppose it is somewhat of a protection to not hope. Then if there is no change, there is less heartache and disappointment. I confess, I struggle with this at times, it has been such a long haul. I have much to work on within myself.
Thank you all for your thoughts and help.

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Hi Lil! So nice to see you again. Thank you for your encouragement. Believe me, I have a way of silently screaming. Thank you for the hugs, much needed as I go this course. Off to start the day.
Love to all


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Maybe that’s the not hoping part that Busy is writing of.
We have no control over the behavior and decisions of another, whether or not we hope or don't hope. And we can't make somebody hope or not hope, for themselves. We do not have that right. And it won't work, either. I have tried with my son. It's futile and ridiculous.

This is different from a person, an individual, having hope. Our hope is interior to us. It cannot effect change in anybody. But it can effect profound change in us. And it can effect profound change in the world. Those are my beliefs which I seek to impose on nobody.

Lack of hope within an individual, an attitude of hopelessness, to me, can be defeat. It is the giving up of the only thing we really have control over. (I am not speaking to any one person, here.)

From hope comes inspiration, comes fight, comes optimism, comes compassion. And with this we emanate a spirit of goodness, as well as, connect with goodness. Even if there is, objectively, no hope. We can create a world of hope, by hoping. Not because things are hopeful or not, but because we choose hope. And that can be contagious. And when we join together with others in spirit we can change the world. And if we can't change our objective world, we still die victorious.

That, to me, is the basis of this forum. There is the fundamental understanding we can't change our children. But we can change ourselves. And we can hold hands to give each other strength, to withstand all that we must. What brings us here is suffering and pain and doubt. What keeps us here, and binds us together is hope. Not for our children, although there can be that. But hope that springs eternal within us, that motivates us to be together to share and to support.
if I don’t get my hopes up, then if she backslides again, I don’t have that far to fall myself.
Of course this makes sense. I do it, too. But what you are saying here, New Leaf, is this: I will keep myself down, so I can't fall far. Why would I do that? Certainly, you don't.
That is so opposite of Victor Frankls teachings “If we take man as he really is, we make him worse. But if we overestimate him … we promote him to what he really can be. So we have to be idealists, in a way — because then we wind up as the true, the real realists.”
I love it when you remember Victor Frankl. Those were such beautiful threads.

When I told my son who presented me with the Food Bank bouquet, "they're wilted." Imagine. Those were the first words out of my mouth. With this, I was NOT channeling our dear departed Victor. What I did was re-create negativity. Oooh. That hurts. With this, I descended to the lowest bar. What would it have cost me to find my heart full of love and gratitude. Not much. When I think about it.

How to practice that? I think some of us are burdened by great shame. We abdicate our deepest body/soul, and we begin to act from addiction. There are all kinds of addictions. One of them is using negativity as a means to protect. Which is what I did. I, for one, will try to learn to connect from my deepest love. Which for me, is hope.
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Face the Sun
That was actually my eldest grandson who said that. Who just happens to now be in the psychiatric emergency ward for the latest explosive episode wherein he chased his brother out of the house and threatened to “put him in the ground and that will end all of my problems.” Police were called and he was taken in. Psychiatrist just called and said that he is remorseful and wants to come home. That it would be in his opinion detrimental to admit him being that he would be locked up in a children’s psychiatric ward with patients who were much worse with schizophrenia and suicidal ideation.
My head is spinning.
I’m going to pick him up.
I must be out of my mind.
I am thinking of you. This must be so difficult.

“All great changes are preceded by chaos.” Deepak Chopra

Let's hope this is it!

Love and light


Well-Known Member
I have read such eloquent statements from those before me most of which hit home. I believe that we all want to have hope and at times when our sons and daughters have a period when they show improvement our hope escalates. It is difficult when they falter to hold onto that hope. It drops a little more each time. When that happens we need to find positives for ourselves because as has been stated we can't change them we can only change ourselves. I pray that all of us can find a way to balance the faltering hope we have in them and hope for ourselves to live a better life.