Being who we are, even if FOO is different and doesn't like it

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Can you take heart that he tries to be a good father? And that he does so, is a tribute to his own parents?

Yes.

But I want more.

I want a son, that exact son that is mine to love me and honor and respect and enjoy and laugh with and hug me and buy me pretty things like he used to.

And tell me the funniest jokes, even if they were off color.

That is what I want. So, in our new way of seeing things, that is who I must be, for my son. That is the way of this thing, the lesson in it, somehow. Not to blame him for who he is not. Which I do, forever, in my secret heart because that is the nature of the wound, for me.

That is the nature of the wound, for me.

That is where the healing needs to happen, then.

Nothing to do with my son.

Huh.

Not in arrogance, but in something else that I do not know the name of. But while I don't know the name of that thing, I do know that I do arrogance.

Blazing arrogance.

Which is a defense mechanism, of course.

Drat.

***

But you know what everyone, I am really so mad about what Son has done to himself and to me. All those horrible things that happened. Those sad, lonely times when I missed him so much.... Plus I do not get to show off or be perfect mom and roar I just hate that. In fact, I feel like a really messed up mom.

Like, Cross eyed with Anger mom.

I don't know why everything has to be so complex.

Cedar
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
I don't know why everything has to be so complex.
It is so complex, because it is actually so simple, Cedar.

For all of our searchings, it is simple.

You love your son.

That is enough.
You will find a way,
as shall I
to love ourselves
and to love
our d cs
without enabling them
and losing ourselves

It is as simple,
yet as complicated
as breathing

and we will get there.

leafy
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
Yes.

But I want more.

I want a son, that exact son that is mine to love me and honor and respect and enjoy and laugh with and hug me and buy me pretty things like he used to.

And tell me the funniest jokes, even if they were off color.

That is what I want. So, in our new way of seeing things, that is who I must be, for my son. That is the way of this thing, the lesson in it, somehow. Not to blame him for who he is not. Which I do, forever, in my secret heart because that is the nature of the wound, for me.

That is the nature of the wound, for me.

That is where the healing needs to happen, then.

Nothing to do with my son.

Huh.
Be that for your son then Cedar. Send him an off color funny joke.

It is the pebble in the still water and the ripples returning to the beginning.

As I wrote this, a moment ago, a neighbor called. I would not normally be home.
She calmly said
"I just dropped off your daughter in front of your house, she looks pretty bad."
Thanking my neighbor, I took a deep breath, said a prayer and went looking for her. She was up the road, lost, turned away from me, backpack, bags in both hands, she could not face me.
I went to her and hugged her. I took her bags from her hands and hugged her again and she broke down sobbing. I grabbed her hand and told her to come inside the house and get cleaned up.
She is bloodied about the face.
A wounded soul.

She is my daughter.

But she cannot stay here.

I will have to see if I can get her to go to rehab, or somewhere.
I am numb.
My heart is not breaking,
for I have seen this before.
But my stomach is sore, my na' auao.
The innards, the seat of emotion, churning.

Please say a prayer for us sisters.
This is the part that wears me down.
To have to be strong in the face of this.
I must be it, and resolute.
It is what I miss the most about her,
the strength.

So I must be it.

God.

Please.

Help.

Amen

Leafy
ROAR?
 

pasajes4

Well-Known Member
I will take this one thing out of the box and I will look at it and then bury it once and for all.

When I got engaged, a thousand years ago, I planned and paid for my wedding and reception. My parents did not put one penny towards the cost. The date was set, invitations sent, final payments made. One week later my 16 year old sister announced that she was getting married and that it would take place 7 days before my wedding. My mother gave the dress that I paid for and all the trappings were changed so that my sister had my wedding. The food for the reception that I paid for was eaten by the guests at her wedding with the exception of the cake that my mother could not convince the baker to do for that date. My husbands family traveled 750 miles to witness their son marry a teary eyed girl in a stained dress and the only food served was a cake. My family did not attend my wedding. I told them if they dared to show their faces I would shoot them.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Or, just keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol under the kitchen sink to clean the faucet and handles with
I wonder if it will work on my stainless steel refrigerator and stove. I will try. How easy and cheap. They charge so much money for the stainless steel cleaners that do not work. We have been using WD40 which works to shine, but not as well, to clean.

I will try the dawn formulas too. We like so much better than dawn the green palmolive but I think we have some dawn.

Thank you Cedar and New Leaf.

COPA
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Imagine with me what it was like when I brought my son home, ready made, like a present. And he loved me. And I loved him. It was like magic. Every sorrow and pain and loss of my life was reversed. By his love. And then it wasn't.

Vice President Biden is on TV giving a speech about acquaintance rape. And how its effects are so much more damaging on a woman than rape by a stranger. Why, he asks? Because the victim blames herself.

What did I do to cause it? What could I have done to have prevented it? I should have known.

I do not think that it is the loss of the love of our sons that kills us...it is what it says to us about us....

You never deserved the love. You should have known it would end. It did not last because of something in you. That something damaged. The defect in you. It is your fault.

And from that comes the rage. We rail against those self-accusations. No, it is not true. I was a good mother. I deserve his love. It is not my fault. (It is his fault. He is a bad son.)

And with this, we fear we have become our mothers. (Except not as bad.) And we rail against this as well.

Not to blame him for who he is not. Which I do, forever, in my secret heart because that is the nature of the wound, for me.
In this your son is a stand in for you, Cedar.

There is the built-in mechanism where you blame yourself for not being what would have prevented the abuser from abusing you. Not clean enough. Or subservient enough. You blamed yourself because it was the only way you could make sense of the absence of love and care from your mother.

The
Cross eyed with Anger mom
is Cedar angry at her mother...not at her son.

It may even be your mother angry at you. And rage that all of this ugliness is happening again...when it should not have. You tried with everything you had to keep it at bay. There must be rage that you failed.
Nothing to do with my son.

So the answer must be as you say, Cedar,to become whole ourselves. To be in us what we miss. That which they were for us....was really parts of us that had been awoken by their sleeping beauty kiss. The missing piece we lacked as children:
to love me and honor and respect and enjoy and laugh with and hug me and buy me pretty things like he used to.

And tell me the funniest jokes, even if they were off color.

That is what I want. So, in our new way of seeing things, that is who I must be, for my son.
Yes. Because this is who you are, Cedar.

COPA
 
Last edited:

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Copa.

You cannot have not read Leafy's thread yet. Her daughter came back, Copa. Leafy had to love her in place and send her away. She has duplicated the thread here for us, but the main thread is on P.E.

My heart breaks for her.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I did see it, Cedar.

I do not know what to say to you, Feeling. What could be adequate to say.

Except that you are very strong and good. A mother who loves her daughter and her family very, very much. Enough to do the right thing.

COPA
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
That which they were for us....was really parts of us that had been awoken by their sleeping beauty kiss. The missing piece we lacked as children:

Copa, you are right. That is the venom in it. What we never had, and what we cherished and celebrated and counted ourselves so lucky, so blessed, to have, in our children. That is the piece I was not connecting. That is the genesis of those nightmarish echos: my mother/myself and the trauma called there.

Their sleeping beauty kiss....

Copa, this is so beautiful and true it makes me want to cry out in gratitude.

Thank you, Copa.

Cedar
 

pasajes4

Well-Known Member
Love changes. It has to. In order for our children to grow and to separate from us we have to shift some of that be all end all love back to ourselves. They must learn to love themselves as independent beings and to love outward to a future mate. We still love them but not that all encompassing my whole world love we had for them when they were small helpless children.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
My husbands family traveled 750 miles to witness their son marry a teary eyed girl in a stained dress and the only food served was a cake. My family did not attend my wedding. I told them if they dared to show their faces I would shoot them.

I wish we had buttons for horror or sadness pasa, and not just for friendly or funny or like. I am glad you stood up to your family and refused to allow them to attend your wedding...but what a terrible situation. It seems our families of origin manage somehow to dirty us, to cheapen or spoil what they touch even when those things they tarnish are legitimately ours, chosen and bought and paid for by us.

And still, they find some way to have it for their own, or to cheapen every small or large thing and suck the magic right out of it.

I feel badly for that young woman, her bridal dress soiled.

It's the symbolism. You cannot "fix" a wedding dress someone else has worn.

Cedar

I have been ashamed in front of D H for my family of origin, too.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
to witness their son marry a teary eyed girl in a stained dress and the only food served was a cake.
Oh, PASA. What a sadness. What a terrible way to treat you. To steal what was yours, earned by you, to wreck it and give it to a sister. So what was left for you, of your stuff, was soiled.
It seems our families of origin manage somehow to dirty us, to cheapen or spoil what they touch even when those things they tarnish are legitimately ours, chosen and bought and paid for by us.
I cannot not think of the white, new goose down comforter which was among the things of mine that I left in the care of my sister. She returned it soiled with menstrual blood. She had gone through my things, taken what she wanted and wrecked most of the rest. While she had demanded money for the safekeeping of the stuff.
I feel badly for that young woman, her bridal dress soiled.
I do too.

I feel badly for all of us to have to learn so young in our own families of the cruelty and shabbiness of the world.

I am sorry, PASA. You deserved so much better.

COPA
 

New Leaf

Well-Known Member
I will take this one thing out of the box and I will look at it and then bury it once and for all.

When I got engaged, a thousand years ago, I planned and paid for my wedding and reception. My parents did not put one penny towards the cost. The date was set, invitations sent, final payments made. One week later my 16 year old sister announced that she was getting married and that it would take place 7 days before my wedding. My mother gave the dress that I paid for and all the trappings were changed so that my sister had my wedding. The food for the reception that I paid for was eaten by the guests at her wedding with the exception of the cake that my mother could not convince the baker to do for that date. My husbands family traveled 750 miles to witness their son marry a teary eyed girl in a stained dress and the only food served was a cake. My family did not attend my wedding. I told them if they dared to show their faces I would shoot them.
Oh my goodness Pas, this is one of the saddest stories I have ever read.

It is also a testimony to your strength and grace.

I am so, so sorry this happened to you.
(((HUGS)))

UGH bad, bad FOO -
FOOEY

leafy
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I do not know what thread to put this on so I will put it here. I have gotten such a mastery on things, I think, I do not feel I need a new thread, every time my son calls me.

He called. I knew it would be him. He has not called in a week or more.

It is almost automatic that I ask, how are you? For a time, I had stopped myself. That was when I was only saying, Hi and Bye and maybe one or two words more.

But today, still feeling in a lot of pain, I asked how he was.

About the same, he said, and continued for a little bit, in a woe is me voice. And then he mentioned the Paris attacks which would fit into his conspiracy theories. I did not take the bait.

He got around to ask: How are things with you guys?

I explained that the last few days I have had back pain but am feeling a little better, thank you for asking.

So he started in with his parent of an errant child voice, disciplining me for how I never listen to him. His counsel on protecting my health and how for the past 2 years all I have done is complain to him about my health (not true.)

I was really hurting, standing there in the kitchen. Listen, I said. Don't you start on me about complaining and not doing anything to help myself. Every call from you I have to listen to your complaints about your life, and how there is nothing you will or can do. Every thing I say you negate.

He responded: This has nothing to do with me. If I was in medical school and married with two children I would be saying the same thing to you.

Well, when you are married with 2 children and in medical school come back and tell me how I do not do anything to help myself, but right now, I do not want to hear it.

I need to hang up. I am really in pain.

Him: You're going to hang up on me?

No. I am saying goodbye. That is not hanging up on you. It is telling the truth. That I have to go because I am in pain. Goodbye.

I feel bad. I do not want be difficult or rejecting. I am his mother. But I do not want to hear how I am remiss, after all I have endured from him. There needs to be more equality here.

But the bottom line is I do not feel good.

I do not like the rules: He gets to complain. On end. Without doing anything. I have to listen. Without comment.

I tell the truth about a temporary state of affairs (hopefully). He reprimands me for not listening to him about how to take care of myself.

In what part of this am I wrong? Or right?

Thank you,

COPA
 
Last edited:

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
The missing piece is us. I wish I could see it in myself. I do not know if I have or have not.

You do.

I read your words in this way, Copa:

The missing piece, that thing we could never safely do, was love our abusers. Not cleanly; not without identifying with them enough to see ourselves as they saw us in order to justify their abuse of us and believe ourselves essentially unlovable, contemptuous things; things to be used to service the abuser's dysfunction. To the degree we identified with our abusers, we feel a sense of fraudulence, a mistrust of decent, respectful relationship. The essence of the work we have done here throughout these months was learning to witness for those terrified children we were; was learning to see and accept and cherish and hold them with compassion.

And that was so impossibly hard for us, Copa.

Just to cherish ourselves and our lives and the lives of those little girls (or boys) we were was a very hard thing. The abuser's contempt forbid it.
Layers and layers of contempt and shame and abandonment and what those things taught us about our own value, about who we were.

What would the flavor of loving a parent like that be.

That is why we do not trust; that is why we chose men whose mothers loved them so securely they were able to take charge of us and of our emotions and never bat an eye. (M: "I haven't left you yet.") We took the challenge in them Copa, but could never believe they did not hold us in contempt. Sexual power was the balance. Beauty was the balance. Threat of desertion was the balance.

And then, we fell in love with our children and because we loved them, learned to love ourselves.

It's some kernel of a center that revolves around these understandings that are not clear to me yet. I saw it immediately in your post, but seem not to be able to describe it adequately.

It has to do with the unnameable complexities of emotion loving parents like ours would involve, all of it drenched in fear of mortality, in shocked hurt, in shame and rage and utter contempt. In identifying all of that with ourselves in order for it to be possible for us to love the parents. And yet, as whatever piece of research it was that taught us that though the mother may not be programmed to love her child, the child is programmed to love the mother...we loved our mothers and still do.

But it's messy in here, in the heart of us.

But when we had our children Copa, we loved them clear and clean and free and with such gratitude that in loving them we healed ourselves .

We have discussed love as Nietzsche's first and natural state; we have discussed loving those who have hurt us by choice in order to forgive and to heal ourselves; we've discussed learning to accept and then to love ourselves, and we've discussed mercy and compassion for ourselves...but we have never discussed what it meant to us to love our children with our whole hearts and without fear and to feel such pride and wonder and gratitude for their presences in our lives. We touched on that only in oblique ways, because we have never seen loving them as a choice.

The Sleeping Beauty kiss. That was the love that awakened all that was good and real and fine in us. How confusing for us then, to feel anger or disgust or betrayal from our children.

So we took that on too, just as we had learned to do in our abusive families.

We went from real to role in a split second.

We have posted about the happiness in those normal, everyday times before our families fell apart, but our attention has been fixed on our children, on what we are losing, on the bitterness of that black emptiness when we found ourselves treated as though they hated us and believed that somehow we had failed them, or that they had seen the truth in us that our abusers saw.

And we lost what we had.

What of him who has nothing. He will lose what he has.


We are amazing. I could cry at our bravery, at our defiance in risking real and the hurt and vulnerability that, for us especially, attend coming real.

But we did it.

We have seen loving our children freely and without reservation and without fear as a gift from us to ourselves. And again, love worked its magic, and we healed because we did love. And they loved us back and did not hate us; and we healed into a place where those old hurts meant nothing. And our children admired us, and we admired them, and we watched them when they slept and we laughed together and kept them safe and clean and believed ourselves safe, too.

That is the message in The Little Prince.

That in caring for something, we come to love it, and loving it makes us happy, completes us in ways we did not know we were incomplete. And when St Exupery suggests we would do better not to listen to the flowers, but only love them, and care for and admire them for their beauty or scent, he was very right.

But we could not do that, until now, when we understand the dynamic you posted for us here.

The Sleeping Beauty kiss.

It was our children who awakened us, Copa.

That is the place where we broke. And that is why we broke. We were very correct to pursue this healing together here.

Yay for us.

That is the name of the difference between parents who survive their children's troubles with equanimity and parents like us, for whom the world fell apart each time our children fell into the intricacies of addiction or illness. Even parents who have not overcome the challenges we have overcome just to risk loving someone are devastated by the words and behaviors and pain of their G F G kids.

For us, that pain is magnified and echoed and reverberates through every smallest corner of being because we are freshly healed, are still fresh with the wonder of loving the way the Little Prince loved his flower.

Add my mother; add my sister, keyed into blood frenzy by my vulnerability especially when my daughter was beat, and was homeless and was dying, and when I was half crazed with it.

And just think what my sister did, then.

Wow, Copa and everyone.

***

Add your sister with her creepy determination to force you into that dysfunctional childhood role you were forced to accept so the stepfather would stay and the mother and the sister would be fine. And in your vulnerability to your son Copa, you broke when you came back into those old, terrible patterns and belief systems.

r o a r

But you have nothing to be ashamed of, Copa. You were so brave. You protected and served as witness and heard her pain and finally, finally loved her without reservation because it was safe to do so as she left you.

***

Now we know so many of the colors of thread that went into this weaving, Copa. I believe that thread you found was a bright, beautiful scarlet, its patterns woven throughout the tapestry and now that we know it we will heal further.

It's horrifying, what happened to us Copa ~ what happens to us still.

What kind of monsters are these people, anyway. Surely they are aware of what they are doing.

Surely, your sister is aware that what she is doing is not only morally wrong, but stupid.

Jealousy is a powerful thing they say, blinding. We could never believe anyone would be jealous of us.

Maybe, we were wrong.

Cedar

Good. I will be showing off all over the place any day now.

Okay. So, that's not exactly true. People always look like goofballs when they show off. But what will happen is we will not be too ashamed, ever again, to dance and move and have the joy of it with all our hearts and risk it all on a whim and create it over and over again.

We've done it a million times.

That we have been able to heal and come back from this is an impossible, astonishing, accomplishment.

And we've done it routinely, and we've done it all our lives.

Good for us, then.

Happy Hour here, everyone.

Copa, thank you.

Cedar

I love the idea of my children saving me.

That is perfect.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I tell the truth about a temporary state of affairs (hopefully). He reprimands me for not listening to him about how to take care of myself.

In what part of this am I wrong? Or right?

You are changing the pattern of relationship with your son, Copa. It is going to feel uncomfortable. There is the magical truth that loving one another means flexibility. He will call back. You will feel differently when your back is better.

Maybe you will laugh together about his worrying over you.

Here is the difference: We are both, you and me too, risking real. This is amazing. We are no longer protecting the little we have left through groveling. We love them too much to love them that way.

Good job, Copa.

I must be doing a good job too, because I think my son isn't talking to me again.

But I know now that he will.

I trust now that he loves me.

:O)

Cedar

I think we are doing well, Copa.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
that thing we could never safely do, was love our abusers...see ourselves as they saw us in order to justify their abuse of us and believe ourselves...things to be used to service the abuser's dysfunction.
This is exactly so Cedar. When I could no longer even talk to my mother for years and years was when she took our inheritance, calling it hers.

It was not the money. It would be accepting that I was how she defined me. As somebody who had to endure whatever she wanted to do to me or with me.

And this must be why I am outraged when M treats me badly. I scream to say, no more. I will never again submit.
learning to witness for those terrified children we were; was learning to see and accept and cherish and hold them with compassion.
I do not have the confidence you do, Cedar, that I risked this. I hope so. Maybe someday I will go back and read the threads.
why we chose men whose mothers loved them so securely they were able to take charge of us and of our emotions and never bat an eye.
I think this is so, Cedar. I was never afraid of M. What I mean is that I was never afraid of myself with him. I was well held and well in check. So I was never afraid of what I would become that would make him leave me.
we fell in love with our children and because we loved them, learned to love ourselves.
Yes. I think my work helped me along, too. I loved a lot in my work. And was loved back.
unnameable complexities of emotion loving parents like ours would involve
Yes.
we found ourselves treated as though they hated us and believed that somehow we had failed them, or that they had seen the truth in us that our abusers saw.
Yes. This is what happened. Exactly this.
they loved us back and did not hate us
I think that for me it was I could love my son...and he thrived...and loved me back. I think they call that a virtuous circle. It was safe to love him. I was safe. I made him OK. And then it didn't work anymore.
Add your sister with her creepy determination to force you into that dysfunctional childhood role you were forced to accept so the stepfather would stay and the mother and the sister would be fine.
Yes. Yuck. She really is my step-father. Yucky. Creepy determination, that has lasted decades and decades. Now I am questioning why I even emailed her. I hope it was to show mastery.
Jealousy is a powerful thing they say, blinding. We could never believe anyone would be jealous of us.

Maybe, we were wrong
This was what my mother always said. She said my sister always felt inferior, that I had more (of everything except money and meanness, too), was stronger and had the better life.

Which is so weird because I was always vulnerable and Cinderella, and marginalized.
I love the idea of my children saving me.
It is pretty wonderful. Except now we have to figure out how to do it without them. And accept them as they are, or want or choose to be.
I must be doing a good job too, because I think my son isn't talking to me again.

But I know now that he will.

I trust now that he loves me.

:O)
He does Cedar. He loves you more than he can bear or can even know. I feel for him. I hope he can come to grips with his great love while you still live. If not, give him my phone number and I will help him through.

COPA
 
Last edited:
Top