My son left. I asked him to.

[Copabanana]

Thank you, TL. Do you know how horrible it is to doubt yourself? You sound strong. Stronger than me. But I had it all worked out in my head. And then?

The idea that had been me that had pushed him out of the only security he had--undid me. Yesterday. I was beside myself.

We can't do it for them but I am not at all convinced that doing nothing for them is the way to go for all kids.

You know, TL, I am not either. Although for over four years I did virtually nothing at all. M more than me, suffered. My heart was cold. I had walled it off. And now?

I feel entirely out there with him.

I think part of it, a big part, is I enjoy him so much. When he acts normal I just love being near him, around him. I had missed that so much. And then to push him away--it was hard.

For some it is definitely what they need to pull it together, but then there are those who don't make it.

M believes my son cannot do it alone. He has not done it alone in 4 plus years.

He sees that now. I see it. So there it is.

 

[toughlovin]

Oh I don't think I am stronger than you. Sometimes I am a puddle of mush!! I think it is really hard when you don't hear from them and don't know where they are. I have been through that a few times with my son and it undoes me too. I know my imagination runs wild when that happens.

I think it is all a process finding that balance.....so you have learned some things about yourself this time around.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Thank you, TL. Do you know how horrible it is to doubt yourself? You sound strong. Stronger than me. But I had it all worked out in my head. And then?

The idea that had been me that had pushed him out of the only security he had--undid me. Yesterday. I was beside myself. You know, TL, I am not either. Although for over four years I did virtually nothing at all. M more than me, suffered. My heart was cold. I had walled it off. And now?

I feel entirely out there with him.

I think part of it, a big part, is I enjoy him so much. When he acts normal I just love being near him, around him. I had missed that so much. And then to push him away--it was hard.
M believes my son cannot do it alone. He has not done it alone in 4 plus years.

He sees that now. I see it. So there it is.

So is he back with you, in your property? Most people who spend enough time around a drug addict can usually tell if that addict is currently using. Not always, but once you know what to look for, it is difficult for us to hide it. They are mind altering substances, after all. Still, I would suggest he do UA's relatively regularly. Don't let him get complacent.

 

[Copabanana]

So is he back with you, in your property?

Hi Darkwing.

No. He called from a big city about 3 hours from here. He said he was going to hang up and call back in an hour but I do expect he got himself on a train and is on his way back here, as he says he had nowhere to stay where he was.

I do value your advice about the drug testing and to keep the pressure on. He has told me before that the effects of marijuana can stay present in urine for up to a month. I read that that is the case, but can also go away in a week or two. It just depends on the person, quantity and frequency.

If I insist on a test now, he will not be clean. I have never done this before. How would you suggest I approach this?

I mean I could say, beginning in 3 weeks I will insist on random drug testing. But is 3 weeks, the right amount of time to wait? Or 2, or what?

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Hi Darkwing.

No. He called from a big city about 3 hours from here. He said he was going to hang up and call back in an hour but I do expect he got himself on a train and is on his way back here, as he says he had nowhere to stay where he was.

I do value your advice about the drug testing and to keep the pressure on. He has told me before that the effects of marijuana can stay present in urine for up to a month. I read that that is the case, but can also go away in a week or two. It just depends on the person, quantity and frequency.

If I insist on a test now, he will not be clean. I have never done this before. How would you suggest I approach this?

I mean I could say, beginning in 3 weeks I will insist on random drug testing. But is 3 weeks, the right amount of time to wait? Or 2, or what?

No, you're right. I wasn't taking into account the long half life of THC when I suggested he pass a UA before coming back. So used to my drug of choice, which isn't pot.

And it can stay in for up to a month. but that's on the far end. There are many factors. Lifestyle, metabolism, physical health, etc. that all have a factor in it. For instance, take me. I am a very skinny guy naturally. I am 5'7", 125 lbs. I have an incredibly fast metabolism. When I was living with friends who were addicted to the same thing as me, I was amazed at how differently we reacted to sudden cessation. I would start feeling withdrawal before 24 hours. For them, it took 2-3 days. The upside was that I could pee clean around 72 hours, and it took them up to a week.

THC can be detected in hair and fat for months. Standard saliva testing is not quite as accurate, and UA's even less so. However, to be perfectly fair and to afford him a real opportunity, maybe insist that he takes a UA a month after his return. And not a day later.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I think the important thing for the both of you is that everything is reasonable, and fair. That way, if it doesn't work out, you can at least know that you provided the very best opportunity possible. So you don't need to sit there and ask if you were unfair. You're not, by the way. You're far more fair than most people I know. Be reasonable, but firm. Give him the month, then he will have no excuse for pissing dirty.

 

[youngfool]

Ok so here's my two cents worth. It should not be up to you to be given drug test to an adult child at 16 17 while there are still under your control I can understand. But it seems to me that at your sons age it seems a little absurd that your parents still are trying to make you stop useing if you know anything about substance abuse the only way things turn around is when a light in there head goes off and only then no amount of test begging talking will change things it will always be a temporary win just waiting for relapse.i went through this with my x wife and now with my son it's no way to live waiting for the watching playing detective going through there clothes cars room. It will consume your life. Anything they say has to be looked at as if it is a lie they become so good at lies that it almost becomes a game so the way I see it I don't want to live that way it takes up all your time and energy and you can never relax because you will always be questioning what they say do go. In my opinion you have to let it play out in your heart you will know when it over when they get it no amount of talking common sense will work they don't think like us that is the basic problem they have a different approach to life there common sence is so different it's so hard to accept that someone is willing to let it all go to hell for a high to us it seems so easy there is a time and place for everything but to them that does not exist. They will watch everything around them crumble to the ground and blame everyone for it and continue on the same path. O they may be times when they do stop but it's only temporary they will find a reason to start again and the game starts all over lies lies and more lies it part of the sickness so you can take from this what you like only passing on what I've been through hope you think I'm beings harsh only trying to give you options if I didn't care I would not bother to comment anyway copa I thinking of you. You were a huge part of helping me get on with my life thank you for your time good luck lovely lady you are a very smart person follow your head not your heart bye for now

 

[so ready to live]

Hi Copa.

He called.

I am relieved for you, the not knowing where they are is the worst.

But who knows? He does lie.

Protect yourselves by remembering this-if any/all of what he said is a lie, would that certainly change your response? Sometimes we have had to work hard (snooping, checking up on) to verify in order to steel our response or at least make non-enabling choices. ie "I have no food" (your cupboards have food in them you could cook-just no hot pockets, McDonalds, $ for pizza delivery. OR "I'm living in my car" ( your car is parked at friend of a friend's mother's house where you are sleeping on their sofa-no you don't have your own room there)

According to him all doors that had once been open are closed to him. He said he was not asking for anything. But of course....he is.

All the doors but you....how many times we've said"You've got to figure this out, we may not be here tomorrow" to have our son reply "I know, I can take care of myself" THEN can YOU do this or that just 1 more time??

So it comes back to how can you support them, set limits, be clear and not enable them all at the same time.

The question.
I know in our lives being aware that he is living and breathing but "just out there making his own way" is the most peace we get. Please no details, no drama. Do we miss him? Oh yes. Can we become entangled in his craziness again? No. I do really cling to the fact that it is disrespectful to him as an adult to keep helping. To reinforce to him as we have in the past, unfortunately at times, that he is not capable of figuring out his own life. Our son is limited in some areas. But, to live in society, he must follow certain rules, norms. He is capable of that but he chooses otherwise. I give in the grace of making his own choices. It's all I have left to give.
Our hearts are with you Copa. Prayers.

 

[so ready to live]

Oh copa.

I think part of it, a big part, is I enjoy him so much. When he acts normal I just love being near him, around him. I had missed that so much. And then to push him away--it was hard.

I could have written this one, makes me cry....Unfortunately or fortunately (at least i have those memories) my undrugged kid makes me laugh, can be kind, helpful, caring, so fun to be with. If that one, from so long ago, would choose life we would be by his side. Too,too many times he has given only lip service to a new beginning. We were the only ones who didn't see it. My wish for you is to find healthy ground for all of you, I know how hard it is to do it. Prayers.

 

[RN0441]

Hi Copa

I too understand that so well. Last night my son from Florida using his Xfinity app, changed our TV channel to Game of Thrones (him and his dad love it) while we were watching another show! We had to laugh. He always likes to tease us.

 

[TheWalrus]

I remember somewhere, probably propaganda of some kind, that there is a difference between a handout and a hand up. Propaganda or not, it is true. The difference is in the receiver. If the receiver takes help graciously and uses it as a stepping stone toward growth and independence, it is a hand up. If the receiver takes it as something owed or an entitlement, takes what they can for as long as they can without it being a catalyst for change and independence, moves on looking for new pathways and persons to receive from when old ones dry up, it is a handout (enabling). It has nothing to do with how much or little we give or the intent of the giving. It has to do with their reception of it. Just my thoughts.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

There is a fine line between support, and enabling, but that line DOES exist. It is a tight rope walk. Think about it this way; if your child was NOT a drug addict, and was doing everything generally the right way, you would offer them all the support you possibly could to help them along even further, right? Now, imagine that child developed a serious drug addiction, and has steadily pissed all of that away. What do you think his prospects are of improvement if he has NOTHING to improve for? I mean, he lost everything else. And yes, they were his decisions, but they weren't decisions made in the right mind. As difficult as this is to understand for non addicts, and despite my general reservations against using this argument, addiction is a disease. Our bad choices get us there, but once we are there, it is a part of us. We lose control. We are unstable. Irrational. It affects every aspect of our thinking, and our behavior. This isn't to say that we shouldn't be held accountable for our actions, but it does serve to explain some of them.

I can tell you right now, if I hadn't gotten in touch with this aunt and uncle, I would not be alive. I had NOTHING. I had no reason to improve. My life was going to be equally as with, or without the drugs. So why would I lose the only thing that at least made it bearable when I had it? It wasn't until my aunt and uncle came into the picture that I was able to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Even then, it took me a few years to be truly ready and willing to make the difficult choices, and change. So, offering reasonable support with conditions can be beneficial, but it needs to be clear, and firm. It shows that that good behavior and thinking is of benefit, while drug use, lying, and stealing is detrimental. As long as he does the right things, life will be easier. If he chooses to piss it all away, life will be difficult. Is this not how life SHOULD work? Give him the option. Set the stringent conditions, and be prepared to uphold the consequences. Yes, he is an adult. And it IS his decision to use drugs if he so desires. Help show him reasons NOT to use them.

 

[Copabanana]

Gee, this is a great thread. Thank you everybody.

Anything they say has to be looked at as if it is a lie

Yes. I agree, youngfool.

He said yesterday when he hung up that he would call back in an hour. 24 hours later. No call. I worried last night that he might have arrived back by train, and entered the house without telling us. I told M who asked, do you want to drive over there? (It was 10). No. Why look for a problem so late. We will know sooner or later.

if any/all of what he said is a lie, would that certainly change your response?

No.

The lying is so dug down deep, at this point, I do not know if he recognizes it, the moment he does it. He never lied as a child. This is something he learned after he left. In the street.

Thank you for this question, SoReady. Actually, it is about love and hope, not about good behavior.

I am seeing it the way Albatross saw it a few days ago. He used the house in a good way. He made a life. The beginnings of a good life. He can do more. He will. It will take struggle for both of us. But I believe now, he will do it. And I can too.

to live in society, he must follow certain rules, norms.

Set the stringent conditions, and be prepared to uphold the consequences.

Yes. I found a review questionnaire from Social Security--to see if he still qualifies or not for SSI. He put it aside and did not do it.

When I told him he said: Nobody told me when I went in. He seems to do this everywhere in his life. Not follow through. He seemed terrified that he did not follow through. He wants that SSI.

It is not personal, how he treats me. This is him, right now, in his life. I do not know to what extent he can or will change. But instability will not help.

What do you think his prospects are of improvement if he has NOTHING to improve for?

I agree with Darkwing in this. I have to meet him where he is. That is my feeling now.

M said last night: You should feel very content. Son knows now that you are all he has.

My wish for you is to find healthy ground for all of you,

Yes. Not there right now. What a wonderful goal.

In the community where we live, especially in the neighborhood the house is it, marijuana is a way of life for many. But the thing is those people most of them are holding their own. I felt so gratified one day when my son referred to the neighbors as "good people" you know, they have jobs and families.

Help show him reasons NOT to use them.

I was happy he saw that. Because he does not have a job and a family. To use marijuana in the margin of a life, when everything else is functioning is one thing. To have it be your life is quite another.

I told him that on the phone, without mentioning marijuana.

I said, Son, it is not that we did not see and understand that you needed the house and that you were well-served by it. We understand that. It is that you seemed to not accept fully that there are other important things. That you take responsibility for yourself. The SSI may not always be there. You need to find a way to take care of yourself when it is not.

I know.

Thank you everybody. I wish I knew where he was now.

 

[toughlovin]

DarkWing.... Thank you for your thoughts on support and such. I found that very helpful and supportive. I think that is one of my worries with my son, who does struggle with depression, is that he will just give up if he is getting nowhere... And really to get somewhere I think he does need our support. He is still struggling, but is going to IOP and getting support and I think he is sober for now. I think that is progress.

 

[Copabanana]

I had no reason to improve.

Thank you for your thoughts on support

TL is thanking you here, Darkwing, and I want to thank you again too.

You see, it is very hard to be us, the parents (or grandparents or aunts and uncles). We go to a very dark place when our children suffer, seem to reject us, reject our love, and treat us badly.

To survive, we get thick skinned. You have seen it. And then when there is hope, we peel that crust back, and we hope and love again--and we leave ourselves open. React in pain, with anger, and withdraw again.

What you are validating here, is both the love and hope and the need to stay present, not so much doubting, but defended. No. Not that. Present. Without judgment or blame. Of them or ourselves.

It is a tough place to stand. Facing reality. Not running from it. Or from our love for them.

 

[Copabanana]

if I didn't care I would not bother to comment anyway copa

I know, youngfool.

I read your post again. And I agree with you.

But then, on the other side of it...

You see, my son does not have some of the strengths that does your own son. Your son is working. He is capable. My son has vulnerabilities. He has not worked for almost 5 years. He receives SSI for mental illness. He has a chronic illness that could well shorten his lifespan. He had a very difficult infancy, drug exposed and in an orphanage.

If sinking and swimming was going to do it, it would have done it by now. I am not saying I was wrong to tell him to leave. His attitude is much improved. He is more stable. He is maturing. But there are real questions about his judgment, apart from marijuana.

I know I cannot put myself in the role of policeman. But I may not have any real better choice. Still, I am not sure either about the drug testing. Maybe I will put it on him as a condition that he drug test himself *through a lab, not informally. I do not know.

Meanwhile I have not heard from him. I wish he would call.

 

[toughlovin]

Copa - I hope he calls soon. As far as drug testing. I have very mixed feelings about it. We have done it in the past and my son found ways around it and it was just difficult. And in many ways although drug use is the issue it is one you have no control over. I think a better set of conditions is around behavior that you expect and we know with a lot of drug use they cannot keep to good well adjusted behavior. Although I don't really know either, like I said I have mixed feelings. I am glad my son is being drug tested where he is at....

 

[kt4394]

Copa, I am so sorry for your pain. I wish I had some insight or advice, but I have none. I do, however, feel your pain and you are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[youngfool]

I realize that we're all the same but different I just want to let you know I'm with you and thinking of you you seem to be a very wise person and I really hope you hear from him soon I'm so sorry for your troubles I'll keep reading your post and I wish you the best I know how you feel stay strong and understand we can only do what we think is right it's easy to say this and that when your on the outside looking in but when it's your world it's a little different so do what you think is right

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

DarkWing.... Thank you for your thoughts on support and such. I found that very helpful and supportive. I think that is one of my worries with my son, who does struggle with depression, is that he will just give up if he is getting nowhere... And really to get somewhere I think he does need our support. He is still struggling, but is going to IOP and getting support and I think he is sober for now. I think that is progress.

I have been in that mindset, and I don't think it is a matter of planning to give up. Most people don't need to actively find a reason to continue living, and improving. That is just kind of innate in all of us. Eventually, an addict is going to look back at all the ruin and devastation, and be overwhelmed by the enormity of it. Which gives us even more excuses to continue using. So, we don't actively plan to fail, or give up. We just accept it as inevitable. We have a hard time understanding why ANYBODY would want anything to do with us ever again. I still don't get really get why my aunt is still around. She has every reason not to be, and no reason to be. That is how we see it. We assume that everybody must see us the same way we see us. And we do NOT have very high opinions of ourselves, clearly.