Perseveration vs Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) vs Bipolar

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by keista, Oct 18, 2011.

  1. keista

    keista New Member

    I know some of you have experience with a mis-diagnosed child - diagnosed as bipolar but it turned out to be Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). And others just have a huge wealth of knowledge. I hope you all can help me reconcile one issue I'm still stuck on.

    More and more I'm getting my head wrapped around the fact that DD1 might actually be on the spectrum. Taking a step back and looking at her major issues and seeing them more clearly and, yeah, Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) may indeed be a better explanation. For example the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) type episodes she had this past summer - obsessing over tic tacs for 3 days, obsessing over duct tape wallets for 2 days. Literally NOT being able do or think of anything else until she got her 'fix'. Not your typical perseverative manifestation, but she was on Abilify that activated her, and this is a child, who until recently, has not had ANY long term interests - not even in the neurotypical kid sense. She would however fixate on things in the very short term.

    Her "moodiness" and outbursts seem to be caused by either sensory issues or conflicts with friends. Hmmmmmmmm Now this is a child who knows pretty much all the social rules. KNOWS being the operative word. I take a step back and realize that although she KNOWS the rules, she only rarely practices them. As if they apply to others and not to her. She is rigid in her thinking and interaction with her friends. It's her way or the highway. In a girl, (seriously can't believe I got caught in this trap) it manifests as "bossiness" and if she doesn't get her way, a tantrum.

    There's more, but these are the big easy ones to write up.

    What I can't reconcile is the fact she WAS a compulsive liar - NOT generally an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) trait (or am I wrong on that too?) and I'm not talking only self preservation type lies. Detailed, intricate, "why are you bothering with this" type of lies. The type that are symptomatic of bipolar. The field trip she went to at school to a park for a picnic. ~Mom! They had carnival rides there too! My favorite was the RED choo choo train. WTF? Mom would have been notified of rides. ~No, I did not poo in the hallway. Then why is there poo on your butt? DD2 picked it up and smeared it on me. ~Ms F gave me this blanket as a gift. OK it's the week before Christmas break, makes sense and is believable, but by the end of Christmas break: Do you know why she gave me this blanket? It used to be her's when she was little and now she passed it on to me. Reality was, some kid left the blanket at school, no one claimed it, so she did. I had no knowledge of this until I asked the teacher why she gave DD1 the blanket.

    These and more spanned age 3 to 8. Currently she is very honest, almost to a fault now - very Aspieish.

    So what am I seeing here? Could this have been an odd developmental thing? At the time it started, I knew (felt) immediately that it wasn't in "normal" scope. Is it possible to reconcile such tall tales through an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) 'filter', or is it something entirely different?
  2. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not


    I still go through that with my daughter. In some ways, she seems to have spectrum traits (the bossiness, the rules apply to others but not to me, the rigid thinking, etc) but same as your difficult child - the lying is sooo extreme...and the sneakiness....and the manipulative stuff.

    So I guess what I'm saying is - although I agree with you that it would be nice to have a diagnosis that fits neatly and you could go down the list and check every box - I'm not sure it's realistic. We can only address those behaviors that she is exhibiting...and any given day she might test one way or another.

    Do the best you can with what you know. It's all you can do.

  3. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    A wise therapist told us... that MOST of these dxes are related on some level. Its like trying to portion out the beach by drawing lines in the sand. Storm comes, and the lines get redrawn not quite where they were... but its all the same beach.

    ADHD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD), Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD), Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), Auditory Processing Disorders (APD), the LDs... I know those for sure fit this picture. That's why an Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kid can seem ADHD - or why a kid who doesn't quite meet the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) definitions has so many traits... ITS ALL RELATED.

    I do NOT know where mental health issues like bi-polar fit in... those were not on our radar. Maybe someone else can speak to that part? Would be interesting to know if those relate as well...

    Anxiety and depression are often secondary dxes... brought on by the original needs not being met for a long period of time.

    This is why I've fought for every diagnosis that fits. There is no ONE diagnosis that comes anywhere close to describing difficult child. But there is a combo that does... and we think we're pretty close to done with dxes now, because the combination of interventions is showing success (for the first time).
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
  4. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Kids do tell intricate lies when younger like that, like...I remember telling kids about a concert I went to and a 7 yr old went on and on about how she went too, to get the same interest that I was getting from the other kids. I knew she didn't, and confirmed it with mom...but she just wanted to be "in" and I didn't "out" her. My niece did that kind of crazy story telling for like 2 years. She is in 3rd grade now and has mostly stopped. Lots of kids do that kind of thing. But maybe, if the aspie thing is right, she took a normal developmental thing and it got escalated to Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)/over the top level? I know lots of what we describe to other non difficult child families they say, well my kid does that too...but usually it is the degree and amount of times and intensity that is very different. When my son tells obvious lies, I call it crazy lying. Like when difficult child runs across a room and I say, you are not supposed to run, he says I didn't, or I say dont put that in your mouth..."I never put things in my mouth" Ok I just watched you chew on that for 3 gonna stick with that story? If something disappears, "Well the guys from toy story took it" ...OK, why did I find it in YOUR backpack?

    I dont know if what your daughter did is that unusual but it does sound extreme. Every Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kid is really just a kid and can have their own strange things that dont fall into any diagnosis. Maybe that was just her weird blip in time??? Just thinking out loud. The way you are processing your new information and sorting through her ways of thinking and behaving sure sounds like the spectrum idea is pretty right on. She is still who she is though. I remember thinking when I finally accepted Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) that even though I knew there was Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)-like stuff, it was really sad to see it in writing. So prepare yourself (you have already been through stuff like that I am sure). It is sad to see the words on paper I think.
  5. Liahona

    Liahona Guest

    Sorry I'm not helpful here. Just wanted to send my support.
  6. keista

    keista New Member

    Funny, I thought I'd be OK with it. I actually am, but I'm so blown out of the water, still trying to process it. If it does show up on paper, gee, I really don't know....... But from yesterday to today, I'm thinking less traits, and more "dead on". We'll see what the report says.

    And yeah, what you said about the lying make sense. Just "more extreme", which is a phrase I used to describe son about a gazillion times!

    Which makes perfect sense since these were the symptoms I identified first. I was treating her like a "normal", albeit feisty, girl. Since son was my first, I let him lead me into my parenting style and it worked well for us. DD1 expected and still expects ME to lead and it just didn't work out as well.
  7. buddy

    buddy New Member

  8. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    Being Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) doesn't rule out other diagnosis's, either. If she is Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), there is help out there for the sensory issues, social issues, etc. Even if it's determined to be a mis'diagnosis later, the help grouped under that heading can still help if she seems to fall under that diagnosis now. It wouldn't hurt to investigate what does work with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids, those methods work with a surprising number of PCs and difficult children.
  9. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member are talking to somebody who is starting to question a bipolar diagnosis in children, considering the fact that only the US and Canada even acknowledge it. I hadn't known that when my son was diagnosed or I would have been a lot more leery of it. So I want you first off to know where I'm coming from. I'm not conviced that the symptoms often blamed on childhood bipolar are bipolar at all...I believe and this is JMO that soon that diagnosis will change to something else...there is really no evidence that kids diagnosed with bipolar grow into adults with bipolar, however not all raging etc. is Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD).

    Your description of your child is a lot like my son, who was misdiagnosed. He would jump from obsession to obsession and never be satisfied until he had his "fix." He is eighteen and still has obsessions, but he does not have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). My oldest son has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), and it is a lot different than what Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids go through. Rather than enjoying their obsessions, OCDers can't control unwanted thoughts or unwanted activities. My oldest son hated his Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). My Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) son loves his obsessions. They do not cause him stress unless he is removed from them. THEN that causes him stress. Moving away from his obsessive interest without fair warning drives him crazy...even though, at eighteen, he no longer melts down. His obsessions still give him much pleasure. With my Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) son he got suicidal wanting to get the unwanted thoughts/obsessions out of his head.

    I can also defer to my own mood disorder, which was once called bipolar II. I think mood dysregulation disorder is a far better description of it because it's NOT classic manic/depression. My moods were not controlled by changes in transition or even a bad, stimulating day. They just happened. I'd wake up and just that fast, I felt that black hole enveloping me like an endless pit of despair. In fact, I called it "the black pit." My Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) son's moods, when he was younger and still liable, were quick to change and were connected to overstimulation, transitioning, and frustration with not being able to do what he felt compelled to do. The heavy duty bipolar medications dulled him, both cognitively and motor-wise, but did not change his basic personality or the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and I'm really sorry I hadn't looked into it more and that husband and I had agreed to medicate him so harshly. But we were told, by our very "good" psychiatrist, that he did not have Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). Later I found out he diagnoses almost everyone with bipolar.

    WE, as parents, do not have to accept any diagnosis. There are no blood tests to verify that the doctors are right. When I finally took my son to a neuropsychologist from Mayo Clinic, the neuropsychologist talked plainly to me and I will never forget when he said that he'd diagnose to the best of his ability. "We make mistakes ALL THE TIME," he said. "This is not an exact science." Actually, the neuropsychologist was quite good, what he said rang true, and we finally got the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) diagnosis. It has been all uphill for my son since then (and medication free). This "bipolar" child has grown into a young adult who is very calm and easygoing and not in any way moody. So where did the bipolar diagnosis come from? WEll, the day he saw the shrink, he wanted me to buy him a videogame (which is a HUGE obsession with him). So he whined and climbed all over me and cried then stopped then cried again, obsessing over my buying him a videogame and when I told him we had to finish the doctor's appointment before we could discuss it, he threw himself on the floor and had a tantrum. He was eight at the time and at the mercy of his obsessions and, like most Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids, less able to control himself than "typical" child.

    If I had it to d over again, I would have researched childhood bipolar much more closely. I am uneasy with how the diagnosis even came about and I am not happy with the strong medications given to kids who are alleged to have it. Also, how come only the US and Canada diagnose it? Anyhow, I would look into Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) for your child because your child has symptoms of it. Rather than a psychiatrist, I'd take him to a neuropsychologist.

    To the end, our psychiatrist said "He can not have Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)." When I asked how he knew, he shocked me with his ignorance: "If he had autism HE COULDN'T BE IN A DIFFERENT ROOM FROM YOU AND NOT MELT DOWN!!!!"

    I was speechless and realized I knew more about Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) than this psychiatrist did.He is WRONG. That is classic autism, not Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified or Aspergers (sigh). Well, I said my If something doesn't feel right, get another opinion.

    About the lying: It's true that my son is a lousy liar, but he does try to lie to get out of trouble. He is high enough functioning to take on that "typical" behavior. However, well, he's not very good at So cant' comment on compulsive lying.

    My mood disorder almost killed me...I was suicidal all the time until I finally found the right medications, ten years later. My son is happy, even though he is different. He is even contented knowing he'll need some help as an adult. Trust me, I think Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) is not as bad as a mood disorder. This again is JMO.

    Good luck. Figuring out our kids is NO easy trick!
  10. keista

    keista New Member

    MWM, thanks so much for sharing.

    I still believe that bipolar can and does exist in kids, but throughout my research it just did not "feel right" as a diagnosis for DD1. Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) makes a lot more sense for her and feels like a better fit. Again, still have to wait for the findings in the report, but I'm feeling more and more that she may be closer to the spectrum than just 'traits'.
    Ah, yeah. This kind of ignorance is REALLY scary given that more often that not, Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) kids are very comfortable with parents being gone, and the extreme separation anxiety is given as a flag for bipolar. in my opinion, that psychiatrist had it completely backwards.
    Haozi, I've done this. My oldest is Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). By default, my parenting style was already set in many ways by the time DD1 came along. I think I'm tripping up on my own ego though. Thinking that maybe if I recognized this sooner I would have done "better" with her, but reality is that because of my parenting style, she is doing well, is quite awesome, and generally a easy child. She's my difficult child, meaning that she's my most difficult child out of the 3. Reality is, there is not much I am going to different, or would have changed, if I had considered Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) sooner.

    I also did have TWO psychiatrists suggest that maybe she was Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but I was insistent that she was not. I feel stupid for not considering the possibility more carefully. We all know the saying about Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)/Asperger's - If you've met/known a kid with Asperger's, you've ONLY met one kid with Asperger's. They are similar, and yet can be SO different. The big monkeywrench here is that she's a girl, and a very girly girl at that. I've only met/known 2 other girls with Aperger's and that was only for about 30 minutes each.
  11. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I hope telling whoppers of stories doesnt mean a kid is some form of diagnosis. Keyana has been telling what we call her imagination station stories for almost as long as she could put complete ideas together. She can come up with some wild stories. She did a whole play in silent mimicking with just facial expressions and hand movements that had me in stitches one night. I think she was 3. She was talking about BIG boobies (me!), little boobies (, big tummy's (again me), little tummy's (her), big Long hair, short hair...tip toeing, tossing hair in the dark..pretending to have a tea party..all sorts of things...all while Papa slept in the bed.

    Then she tells these big stories about monsters and having to sleep in cars or tents and stuff like that. She makes up really fantastic stories that show she has a good imagination.
  12. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    Janet - No, it doesn't. It's all about whether or not the child recognizes context. Entertaining... means anything goes as long as it is appropriate to the audience - truth is not a requirement, or there would be no fiction written, no movies, etc. A vivid imagination is a gift.

    If the child doesn't recognize context - then you have a problem. If "over the top" is how every question gets answered... that's when I'd be concerned.
  13. keista

    keista New Member

    Yeah, what Insane said.

    Janet, problem was she wouldn't tell stories for stories sake, but I did use that to get her to stop they lying. I told her that she could say ANYTHING she wanted as long as she clued in her "audience" that it was not necessarily true. It didn't have to be before her story but at the very least shortly after her "story" was finished. Fortunately this method worked for us, because she was always trying to pass off "wild stories" as the truth.