"Prevention", "Diversion" and "Unruly"


Shooting from the Hip
So Pat has finally been formally introduced to the Juvenile Justice System.

Went in for a hearing this morning. Was pretty clear from the beginning of the hearing that the lady (not a formal thing) was open-minded... Until Pat interrupted and got nasty. Whoops, kid.

Bill did most of the talking, which is appropriate. I was there for verification and to show a united front. I did remind Bill that we'd been working with CPS to make sure not to do anything too awful.

He did get to tell his side, of course. "They're the liars" (that was the interruption)... And another one... "I stole the computer and they stole it back so I stole it back from them." *facepalm* Well, at least he didn't lie... But wow. The best one? "They got mad when I didn't do my chores so I told them they could do them." *headdesk*

He has lost his temporary license, as in - cannot find it.

She read the house rules, which are pretty simple stuff, basic respect... Thought they were good (and said so). Looked at his chore list and noted it was detailed, but all in all was very little. She asked him why these chores were so bad and he said he didn't need to help out.

He asked to speak to her without us, but when they came out, it was pretty clear she wasn't worried about whatever he said.

So next is the behavior contract... She made it clear to him that we'd like to keep this unofficial, and it seemed to her that we were asking for help. This is a completely different scenario from what we went through with Belle - then, it seemed we were being blamed and no help was available.

So far, so good...


Well-Known Member
"I stole the computer and they stole it back so I stole it back from them."

"They got mad when I didn't do my chores so I told them they could do them."

Annie... I know he doesn't have the Aspie diagnosis, but this is sooooo typical of Aspie kids. No difference between you (parent) and me (kid). If you can do it, I can do it. Why should I do something that you are well able to do? I don't do it, because it's kind of a waste of my time.

I've heard that logic a thousand times if I've heard it once.


Shooting from the Hip
IC, I know. But without that diagnosis, there are NO supports available to him, and he's doing other stuff just to be annoying. Unplugging the camera we bought specifically for checking on the dog who chews things? Every day. Lying to others (long list of topics, but that we beat him and lock him out are two)... Getting into my purse and moving my credit cards from my wallet to another pocket... Other stuff in the house moving to rather odd places. Refusing to eat with us then saying we don't make food for him (though we somehow almost always have leftovers that he doesn't eat, and he's capable of cooking for himself). And on and on and on.

If he does leave when he turns 18... And he will, he's pretty stubborn... He's going to either move in with bio-gma, enabler extraordinaire (who will also drive him CRAZY)... Or he will get eaten ALIVE.


Well-Known Member

Do you think he needs to be reassessed to make sure the diagnoses still fit?

Congrats on the new impending grandbaby!


Well-Known Member
But without that diagnosis, there are NO supports available to him,
been there done that. I know... and at this age, it's hard to get ANYTHING from "the system".

and he's doing other stuff just to be annoying.
Are you sure it's on purpose? It might just look that way...

Unplugging the camera we bought specifically for checking on the dog who chews things? Every day
Afraid the camera is actually there to check on him rather than the dog?

Lying to others (long list of topics, but that we beat him and lock him out are two)...
Flashbacks to his old life?

Getting into my purse and moving my credit cards from my wallet to another pocket
Other stuff in the house moving to rather odd places
There will be a reason he is moving stuff, but he can't necessarily articulate it. Where it is, is "wrong".

He almost sounds a bit paranoid. Not "schizophrenia" type of paranoid, but still paranoid. Given what he's been through before you came on the scene... it might make sense. There could be a mental illness component to his behaviors. Just suggesting... I don't have a crystal ball.


Shooting from the Hip
On purpose - yes. This morning, he did not unplug the camera, but he did stop in front of it long enough to flip his middle finger at it. That one is pretty obvious!

As for checking on HIM - well, it's set up so the only places it can really see are the floor of the living room, where the dog likes to chew things, and the kitchen, where said dog jumps on counters. He was actually part of the discussion when we decided to GET it for the dog.

As for what he is saying - darn near a direct quote from a custody filing by his mother, 4 years ago - and other of her accusations, including Daddy being a drug addict and both of us having multiple extramarital affairs (though I'm not sure what that has to do with anything). The beating came from a "friend's" mother, when Pat showed up at their house at 9 PM and woke them - we found out that the kid and his mother had a code word for Pat, so when Pat got overbearing, Mom could say "no he can't come over" and the kid was covered.

The "other stuff" - a couple of examples. Bowls in the cupboard where the drinking glasses go, cups where the pots and pans go (bowls and cups haven't moved since we moved in 10 years ago). My keys hanging up in the bathroom. Bill's blood sugar monitor in the fireplace. Dog toys in the fridge. My federal ID neatly set upright in Rose's car seat - but the lanyard hanging in the house.

Remember, though, I've been in his life longer than out of it. And this stuff really just started happening about a year ago - but only randomly here and there until the last 2 months. He started complaining about his glasses being broken, we hadn't bought him new glasses in 3 years (then that changed to 4...) We got him a new pair and he refuses to wear them because they are "the wrong prescription" (same one as the last set)...

He does have issues, but this seems more like he is trying to get us to kick him out so he can look like the victim... I don't know where that will get him, though.

AppleCori, THANKS! It's good to know people read my signature LOL!


Well-Known Member
Remember, though, I've been in his life longer than out of it. And this stuff really just started happening about a year ago - but only randomly here and there until the last 2 months
He was how old before you came into his life? If I remember, he was at least school age. So, before that, a whole life of chaos and who knows what else. A lot of these behaviors, he may have seen and absorbed in that original timeframe - the time "before Annie".

Now, he is on the edge of the next transition. He isn't equipped to handle that - he sort of knows that. But. The "old" programming may be coming out as a result of the stress. Not that knowing where it comes from makes it any easier to deal with. If you knew for certain what his motives and motivations were, there is a slim chance you could counter-balance to some degree, but you don't have that. I'm not sure HE can even tell you.


Shooting from the Hip
He had just turned 5 a few months before Bill and I met. He wasn't even in kindergarten yet. He was a month short of 4 when biomom took off with him and Belle.

The intervention coordinator was on the ball. We signed the behavior contract with Pat... Although I am pretty sure he's going to pretend it doesn't exist.

Found out where he's been getting his money... He makes bets with other people at school and when he wins, he collects. Completely against the rules... Illegal gambling is what the school will call it. I'd place my own bet that he has been doing this for a while... But now it's out, and I have a feeling the school is going to get a call from her. The look on her face...

He also stated he *wasn't* doing chores. So she pulled out a list of other chores, handed it to him and told him he could do our chores or hers. Her list? Age-appropriate from 2 years up. Extremely lengthy. He finally caved. Still tried to say he wasn't doing dishes. She went OFF. Nicely, but pretty much as soon as she found out we have a dishwasher... Whew.

So his glasses have been returned to him (took them off his dresser Wednesday night to have the Rx checked... It's fine)... He said he cant see with them, she had him read a sign across the street (I could barely read it WITH my contacts and he had no problem). Doubt he wears them, but the point has been made.

He also said the camera was ALWAYS pointed down the hall into his bedroom. Err... Around a corner and through a wall. She asked him why he kept unplugging it and he said because we weren't using it. "Do you think they're spying on you?" "No."

He's been ordered back into counseling and into anger management classes (for coping skills... I asked her where those were when I was a teen). He refused to tell her why he didn't want his driving license with us in the room... I can't figure that one out!!

She checks in with him at school once a week and if he does not follow ANY of the house rules we are to call her IMMEDIATELY. Even in the evening... She said it will go to voice mail. We had to sign that.


Well-Known Member
With his recent behavior, he should not be driving. Has he had a neuropsychiatric evaluation? It sounds like more than rebellious teenage behavior.


Crazy Cat Lady
I agree with pasajes4. This sounds more and more like there's some delusional thinking going on.

Plus, Pat is at the age where schizophrenia spectrum disorders start to show up, and also at the age where bipolar often rears its head.

I've felt for a while that there's something really "off" about him. I would really recommend getting him in for a full evaluation asap.

Also, regarding the refusal to drive. Could be any number of reasons, some of them legitimate.

For example. I got my learner's permit at 15 and was under a LOT of pressure to get my license as soon as * turned 16 as my father's illness was impacting his ability to drive.

However, my eyes "weren't right" and I refused to even go out on driving lessons until my opthalmologist got my eyes squared away and got me glasses that worked properly.

It could be something as simple as that with pat. He could still have some sort of visual impairment that affects him despite his vision appearing to be good with his glasses on.

For example, My right eye corrects to 20/25. At the same time, I am missing 1/3 of my visual field in that eye due to a detached retina that wasn't treated in time. So, I do great at reading eye charts, but other than that...

My left eye, which is corrected to 20/50, is the eye I depend upon when Driving, as while things are a bit blurry, I have a complete field of vision in that eye.

Get all those things checked out. It could also be that he's just afraid to drive, and that has to be respected. He may not want to have to run errands.

I don't have fond memories of my early driving years as they were spent running errands and driving my father around to work sites so he could hold onto his job for a few years longer.

And, because of that, and because I learned to drive on inner-city Chicago highways, I have never really enjoyed driving, which is a pity. I'm a good, safe driver and all that, but to me it's way of getting from one place to another, and that's it.


Shooting from the Hip
OK, lots of stuff to touch on.

He HAS had a neuropsychological workup... They reported Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS), "mild" ADHD, and Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)-not otherwise specified. However, the markers they referenced for Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) could also be due to his Asian heritage (the epicanthic fold, cheekbones, etc.) So Bill and I discussed, and we're guessing there are some effects but I would call it Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE). The ADHD is from Bill's side of the family, but medications for it were wildly unsuccessful (the stimulants did what stimulants are SUPPOSED to do and made him a holy terror, then he'd crash so hard he couldn't wake to pee in the middle of the night... It was horrible). We have had him in counseling off and on, but one of the counselors the biomom sent him to told her everything so he won't tell any counselors anything now. Paranoid - with reason. Belle is diagnosed bipolar, and we are pretty sure biomom was as well. However if that is the case with Pat, it doesn't manifest the same.

Getting him in for a re-evaluation now? If we had insurance, sure. Except... My last insurance didn't cover voluntary re-evaluation. And to be completely honest, he wouldn't cooperate anyway. NOTHING we have a hand in gets cooperation. He did go to his anger management yesterday - but we didn't suggest it. The intervention coordinator did.

For a while, before he was old enough to get his license, he said he never wanted to because he was afraid to, and besides, we would give him rides everywhere or his friends would. When Belle pointed out that getting rides might not be an option, he said he would walk. I don't really care if he gets his license - that is Bill's thing. I don't understand why he does not want to; even when I was afraid to drive on the freeway, or during bad weather, due to a bad accident on the freeway in bad weather... I still loved to DRIVE. Even though it truly is, as you say, a way of getting from one place to another. The other thing about that is... If he doesn't have a car... He doesn't have a way to get to a job, so he can't look for one. He's said as much. *headdesk* Biogma has a license and a car. Not that I'd ride with her. Not on a bet. She's 4'8 and drives 25 mph in a 45. I've seen it... Passing her on the road. Eek.

And, no, he hasn't followed house rules since Friday, either.


Crazy Cat Lady
Well, I'm walking/driving proof that not everyone loves to drive, even as a teenager. My mother doesn't enjoy driving either, but she learned in her 40s.

I'm glad I learned to drive, and glad I can drive as it's just a necessity in this day and age, but...

Could be Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE)/Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS). Now that you bring it up, I do remember you discussing Pat's evaluation.

His refusing to drive so he doesn't have a way to get to work, though...wow! That was one of the big reasons I wanted to learn to drive. I had my eye on a job with the phone company and I had to be able to drive as operators had to be on call.

I also wanted to move in with Stu when I turned 18, and I needed to learn to drive before I did that. Stu was already driving, but my father was a bit "iffy" about me being in a car alone with a "man" (ain't a boy if he's mature enough to grow facial hair. Stu was 18, but hairy.), not to mention he was iffy about Stu's car, which was a real POS.

So, I had motivations to get my license, even if i didn't actually like driving. Needed a real job. Wanted to move out. My niece and nephew were the same way.

Sounds like Pat wants/needs to remain dependent on you and Bill, which is becoming more common these days, but he doesn't want to do what is required of him to remain dependent.


Well-Known Member
My Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) son is afraid to drive. He doesnt think hed be calm enough and is not interested and he gets around. He would probably be a distracted, nervous, poor driver, especially in challenging weather. We put him through drivers ed then he decided not to continue and does not serm interested.


Well-Known Member
Sounds like Pat is a classic case of Failure to Thrive.
We've been discussing this on PE, and runnawaybunny is helping us set up a new forum - for parents of teen and adult children with complex developmental and mental health challenges


Shooting from the Hip
Yes, he wants to remain dependent, but on HIS terms, not ours. That's not the way life works. Besides, we won't be around forever, and then who will care for him? Belle? Probably not, not with her own family to deal with. Biogma will be gone sooner or later. And I'm raising Rose to NOT be a doormat... I was one, and I won't go back there. Ever. Again.

If he would be willing to work with us (as he has in the past), we work with him. That means if he does us a solid, we give him rides, make sure he has socks and underwear (!), and he gets to use the TV, a cell phone, the XBox... He's shown he CAN. He just WON'T.

I honestly don't think Pat would be a good driver, which is why we bought him a bike a couple years ago. Guess what? It sat in the garage for a long time, got dusty. Then suddenly it was gone. He said (I have not looked, I probably should as I paid good money for that silly thing) that it "broke" and he put it in the lower garage (which used to be where the fuel oil sat). We're guessing the chain came off. But riding it? Maybe twice.

I'm concerned with his walking through yards... I can see someone's dog biting him or him being reported for trespassing... Sigh.


Crazy Cat Lady
Dogs or trespassing? I'd be worried about someone taking a potshot at him.

I agree that he doesn't want to hold up his end of the deal.

It's funny. My parents told me that either I started working "days" or I'd have to move out at 18. I worked 3rd shift by preference; it paid much better and I'm an "owl".

I tried my best not to disrupt the household with my hours, but it turned out that my parents were sitting up worrying about me.


Well-Known Member
Yes, he wants to remain dependent, but on HIS terms, not ours.
My son is this way too.

How do we get these threads that would fit perfectly in the new Failure to Thrive forum, over there?

When FOO was started, we have already done two FOO threads in PE, so it was just a question of moving there. But there were several dedicated FOO people.

Insane, it seems like one of us, or Suzir or Apple needs to just start a thread. I will think about it.



Well-Known Member
We need permission of the original poster, and we can get runawaybunny to move the threads. This is one of them. There is the "new forum?" thread, which is mine - and I will ask for it to be moved. Any others?