Marguerite
Active Member
Before I get started, I want to be clear - I am not trying to start a religious debate, nor am I trying to upset anyone who holds different views to my own. However, if you are going to be easily upset by someone who is a Christian and an evolution student, then do not read any further. My concern however, is not this specific debate but rather - how to discuss this with my son, who I feel is blindly ignoring his background, his very basic way of thinking, in order to fit in socially.
Now on to the issue - difficult child 1 has been going to girlfriend's church for 18 months now. He also has shown tendencies in the past of "channelling" his girlfriends (the best way to describe it). By this I mean he takes on their characteristics, their interests and their belief systems fairly thoroughly.
When difficult child 1 became more interested in going to church I was pleased because we tried to raise our kids into the Christian faith. However, we also taught our kids to make up their own minds, to really think about things and to really KNOW what they believed. All opinions should be able to be substantiated. Although in matters of faith, this cannot be analysed or made subject to scientific reasoning, since while faith and science do not clash (in my opinion and in the way I was taught) there is also no meeting point for science and faith. It is as if they are on totally different axes of the universe.
difficult child 1 began going to girlfriend's church which is a bit more - well, odd - than most. I have noticed an increase in this kind of 'different' thinking recently in our churches. I have friends who argue with me about things which I never felt were a point of conflict before - creation and evolution, for example. I was taught about evolution in Sunday School (and shown there was no conflict), I later studied biology at uni and even did a detailed course in evolutionary theory - at no time did I feel any conflict except with a few apparently off the wall oddities who saw my studies as reason to evangelise at me.
Now I find that difficult child 1 has embraced creationism. Now while I don't really mind what he believes, I find it very hard that he has come to this point through logic, commonsense and reasoning - not after living in a household of scientists and biologists. He has been raised with the understanding that there is no conflict between evolutionary theory and faith and now is making himself unpleasant to agnostic and atheist friends by evangelising inappropriately. Again, this was also something we discussed as part of him learning social skills - he simply isn't good enough at reading people to know when this sort of evangelism is doing harm, rather than good. In our book, if someone asks you about your faith and opens the door for discussion, you can witness; but not otherwise. Some people may choose to do so and maybe they have a gift for it; but if your ultimate aim is to share your faith with someone then you don't beat them over the head with it by sharing when they really don't want you to. husband & I both know from experience it doesn't work for us; we've seen that it also does not work for difficult child 1.
For a while difficult child 1 would ask me a question, often from a creationist point of view, as if (I thought) trying to balance the argument. I would explain the question in a more scientific way and also try to frame the religious implications to help him find the balance. I have been careful to not say, "You must believe the way I do, or not be considered a member of the family" or anything else so ridiculous, but I did say to him, "When you are presented with an apparent contradiction, I want you to independently research the various answers thoroughly before you make up your own mind. Please do not, ever, simply blindly believe what someone else tells you to believe. You must believe what YOU believe."
He stopped asking me questions months ago. I get on great with him although he doesn't talk much. He seems relaxed and comfortable with us although it's hard to tell - he's usually only home for about two days a week, if that.
Yesterday I found a copy of "Creation", an Australian edition of what appears to be a mostly US-based publication, judging from the addresses on the correspondence pages. As I read it and saw people who think like I do described in some pretty nasty ways (apparently not only are we deluded, we are actually deliberately distorting truth as part of some world-wide conspiracy of science to delete faith from the world and so win it over for Satan). It read like a tobacco company propaganda sheet discussing the myth of cancer's link to smoking. Then again, maybe I'm being too harsh on the tobacco companies. Frankly, the language was emotive and presented in a very misleading and biased way. I am open to reading creationist literature, I read anything. I then think about it, analyse it, often check out the quotes and references for myself and them come to my own conclusions. But this - I couldn't believe the way it was directed. I remember being shown anti-communist propaganda (ironically by the same Sunday School teacher who showed us how well evolution fits the Bible) and got the same feel of rhetoric with little or no actual information in it. And with this publication - it's the same. I can't point to any actual RELEVANT information, but the emotion it is presenting is almost overpowering. I remember getting to the end of the anti-communism leaflet and saying, "But what really is wrong with communism? This doesn't say!" and getting a very stern (but equally uninformative) lecture. I wasn't about to espouse communism, I just wanted to know - something about it was as fascinating as a cobra sneaking up on a mongoose - there was some unspoken horror and I wanted to better understand it.
I asked difficult child 1 if he ever read this magazine. He said, "Yeah, a few times." His tone of voice indicated he was comfortable with it.
My concern now is this - he still needs me and husband a great deal to help him with his life, with his social skills etc. But if he feels ANY acceptance of the way this magazine talks, then how can he respect a word husband & I say? And how can I talk to him about any of this?
I know for him, evolution vs creation is merely something he has hung his wagon to because his girlfriend has. He believes in creationism utterly - because she does. (Note - I am distinguishing between creation and creationism - I define "creation" as "God created stuff, in his own way" and "creationism" as ""God created stuff exactly as described, literally, in Genesis - no arguments, no variation, no analogy, no parable, no allegory")
I don't want to argue with her about it -difficult child 1 deliberately raised the subject in her presence once, after I'd asked him not to. For her, I think her faith is too tightly bound in this distinction, where I know his is not. I know he is serious about her, planning a life together - and I have known successful marriages where one was a creationist, the other was evolutionist. No problem.
But if he (or she) thinks that either husband or I are deliberately distorting truth, or liars, or agents of Satan - then how the -whatever- can they ever respect any other word we say to them? How can I talk to him about this?
The church in which I grew up taught me there was no conflict. I have seen a considerable increase in the last two or three decades. I have had friends who previously were liberal thinkers who now consider me a heretic for sticking to my scientific viewpoint happily with no apparent conflict.
So how do I talk to my son, if he considers this of me?
Any ideas?
Marg
Now on to the issue - difficult child 1 has been going to girlfriend's church for 18 months now. He also has shown tendencies in the past of "channelling" his girlfriends (the best way to describe it). By this I mean he takes on their characteristics, their interests and their belief systems fairly thoroughly.
When difficult child 1 became more interested in going to church I was pleased because we tried to raise our kids into the Christian faith. However, we also taught our kids to make up their own minds, to really think about things and to really KNOW what they believed. All opinions should be able to be substantiated. Although in matters of faith, this cannot be analysed or made subject to scientific reasoning, since while faith and science do not clash (in my opinion and in the way I was taught) there is also no meeting point for science and faith. It is as if they are on totally different axes of the universe.
difficult child 1 began going to girlfriend's church which is a bit more - well, odd - than most. I have noticed an increase in this kind of 'different' thinking recently in our churches. I have friends who argue with me about things which I never felt were a point of conflict before - creation and evolution, for example. I was taught about evolution in Sunday School (and shown there was no conflict), I later studied biology at uni and even did a detailed course in evolutionary theory - at no time did I feel any conflict except with a few apparently off the wall oddities who saw my studies as reason to evangelise at me.
Now I find that difficult child 1 has embraced creationism. Now while I don't really mind what he believes, I find it very hard that he has come to this point through logic, commonsense and reasoning - not after living in a household of scientists and biologists. He has been raised with the understanding that there is no conflict between evolutionary theory and faith and now is making himself unpleasant to agnostic and atheist friends by evangelising inappropriately. Again, this was also something we discussed as part of him learning social skills - he simply isn't good enough at reading people to know when this sort of evangelism is doing harm, rather than good. In our book, if someone asks you about your faith and opens the door for discussion, you can witness; but not otherwise. Some people may choose to do so and maybe they have a gift for it; but if your ultimate aim is to share your faith with someone then you don't beat them over the head with it by sharing when they really don't want you to. husband & I both know from experience it doesn't work for us; we've seen that it also does not work for difficult child 1.
For a while difficult child 1 would ask me a question, often from a creationist point of view, as if (I thought) trying to balance the argument. I would explain the question in a more scientific way and also try to frame the religious implications to help him find the balance. I have been careful to not say, "You must believe the way I do, or not be considered a member of the family" or anything else so ridiculous, but I did say to him, "When you are presented with an apparent contradiction, I want you to independently research the various answers thoroughly before you make up your own mind. Please do not, ever, simply blindly believe what someone else tells you to believe. You must believe what YOU believe."
He stopped asking me questions months ago. I get on great with him although he doesn't talk much. He seems relaxed and comfortable with us although it's hard to tell - he's usually only home for about two days a week, if that.
Yesterday I found a copy of "Creation", an Australian edition of what appears to be a mostly US-based publication, judging from the addresses on the correspondence pages. As I read it and saw people who think like I do described in some pretty nasty ways (apparently not only are we deluded, we are actually deliberately distorting truth as part of some world-wide conspiracy of science to delete faith from the world and so win it over for Satan). It read like a tobacco company propaganda sheet discussing the myth of cancer's link to smoking. Then again, maybe I'm being too harsh on the tobacco companies. Frankly, the language was emotive and presented in a very misleading and biased way. I am open to reading creationist literature, I read anything. I then think about it, analyse it, often check out the quotes and references for myself and them come to my own conclusions. But this - I couldn't believe the way it was directed. I remember being shown anti-communist propaganda (ironically by the same Sunday School teacher who showed us how well evolution fits the Bible) and got the same feel of rhetoric with little or no actual information in it. And with this publication - it's the same. I can't point to any actual RELEVANT information, but the emotion it is presenting is almost overpowering. I remember getting to the end of the anti-communism leaflet and saying, "But what really is wrong with communism? This doesn't say!" and getting a very stern (but equally uninformative) lecture. I wasn't about to espouse communism, I just wanted to know - something about it was as fascinating as a cobra sneaking up on a mongoose - there was some unspoken horror and I wanted to better understand it.
I asked difficult child 1 if he ever read this magazine. He said, "Yeah, a few times." His tone of voice indicated he was comfortable with it.
My concern now is this - he still needs me and husband a great deal to help him with his life, with his social skills etc. But if he feels ANY acceptance of the way this magazine talks, then how can he respect a word husband & I say? And how can I talk to him about any of this?
I know for him, evolution vs creation is merely something he has hung his wagon to because his girlfriend has. He believes in creationism utterly - because she does. (Note - I am distinguishing between creation and creationism - I define "creation" as "God created stuff, in his own way" and "creationism" as ""God created stuff exactly as described, literally, in Genesis - no arguments, no variation, no analogy, no parable, no allegory")
I don't want to argue with her about it -difficult child 1 deliberately raised the subject in her presence once, after I'd asked him not to. For her, I think her faith is too tightly bound in this distinction, where I know his is not. I know he is serious about her, planning a life together - and I have known successful marriages where one was a creationist, the other was evolutionist. No problem.
But if he (or she) thinks that either husband or I are deliberately distorting truth, or liars, or agents of Satan - then how the -whatever- can they ever respect any other word we say to them? How can I talk to him about this?
The church in which I grew up taught me there was no conflict. I have seen a considerable increase in the last two or three decades. I have had friends who previously were liberal thinkers who now consider me a heretic for sticking to my scientific viewpoint happily with no apparent conflict.
So how do I talk to my son, if he considers this of me?
Any ideas?
Marg
