spanking a child

wintak

New Member
Janet...that's awesome...I may have to go find myself some tubesocks! Do they sell them anymore?

I have a wooden spoon that I have slapped the palm of their hand with just to give them an idea of what it MIGHT feel like on their butts. That's usually all I have to do....get the spoon
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
I have hit my son a few times - but each time because I lost control, out of frustration and/or anger - and always felt bad about it afterwards. Each time I have apologised to him. My firm intention is not to hit him - too easy, futile and counter-productive. Especially as I am trying to teach him to control his own impulses... Of course I am "against" spanking in theory but in practice it's a rather different kettle of fish (as we say)... I feel it's the option of the uncreative, really - any fool can hit a child, but it takes wisdom to negotiate/explain/implement other consequences.
But we are human. :)
 

Marguerite

Active Member
It's illegal to spank your kids in New Zealand. That law came in just as we were heading there on holiday. There are cultural reasons for it as well as other reasons.

We found that spanking a difficult child only led to more problems for us. That doesn't mean we didn't spank; but with hindsight, it was not the best option for us.

Our kids all went to child care at some stage, and the staff there were not permitted to spank, so they had other really good strategies in place. We just picked up on those and used them. However, at home sometimes I'd spank, or in the car. I followed my mother's example and carried a bright red plastic fly swat. She always said the bright colour would warn the kids to not mess with mum. The swat made a satisfying whistling sound as you brandished it, but it never hurt the kid. And if ever a kid said, "That didn't hurt!" my response generally was, "If I meant it to hurt, I would have hit harder. The aim is not to hurt; the aim is to teach."

Marg
 

scott4431

New Member
Well everyone's responses makes me feel better if it were to happen. From what I have gathered is that if necessary it may be ok to do it once in a while as long as it is not excessive or torturous, but to keep in mind that every child is different and if the child has special needs it may not be as effective as a child who does not.

what about washing a child's mouth with soap? That has happened to me a few times, lol, I think it was a big deterrent and effective. And I just realized something to, if I have kids in the next few years, by the time they get a little older, all of these "rules" may change by then, amazing how life keeps moving and changing.
 

Andy

Active Member
I have never had my mouth washed out with soap. I would be careful with that one especially with ingredients used to make the soap stronger or smell a certain way. I think there is the possibility of a child getting very sick on that.
I do remember on thing my parents did when I was about 8 years old that was EXTREMELY effective to us. I don't remember what Dad was angry about (and my parents rarely got angry) but he made my sister and I take EVERY dish from the cupboard (glasses, cups, plates, ect.), wash them, dry them, and put them back. I can't imagine what we did for that one, most likely didn't have dishes done when they got home?
We avoided Dad's anger one time when our uncle who was a Native American came to visit. We were warned by our parents that he did not like a lot of noise and we were to be quiet at his home or when he came to ours. He was visiting one evening when Dad went to the basement to get something. All of a sudden, he heard the largest comotion upstairs - Us girls were laughing very loudly. He ran up to quiet us and found our uncle leading us in a rain dance! Couldn't stay angry then! LOL! (Fond memories of that uncle - amazing how you can have fond memories of a relative who very seldom talked to you)
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
One drop of Ajax dish soap. That's all it takes.

Interesting story my Mom tells. I was rarely spanked. Almost never in fact. So one day in a grocery store I was acting up... She said something... And I screamed at the top of my lungs... "PLEASE MOMMY DON'T HIT ME!!!"

I was 3 ish... So this was 35 years ago. Still...
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Careful on the soap. I would NEVER go that far. That can be construed as abuse. As always, while it may work ONCE if the child is a typical child, it probably will not stop a difficult child from swearing or saying bad things to others. Therefore...can you keep doing it over and over again?

I'd try to work out less old-fashion punishments because these days t hey can land you in jail.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
MWM - that's a really good point. Actually - it worked once on Jett and it's never been done again; but on Onyxx? I'd be working with lye soap now. And that as we know is a REALLY BAD IDEA.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Washing a kid's mouth out with soap is considered abuse these days. I saw an episode of Dr Phil which was discussing a woman putting hot sauce in her child's mouth as a punishment for lying. I believe that is also considered abuse, although in some states it was claimed it is still commonly practiced.

My mother used to wash our mouths out with soap, but only rarely. I remember her doing it to my nephews (her grandsons - we lived next door, we were extended family and she did it with their mother's permission) and Mum told me she had made sure to drag the cake of soap over the teeth so some soap got stuck there. I remembered tat from the once or twice she did it to me when I was a kid.

The thing is - I can't remember why I had my mouth washed out. I know we were told as kids that we would get our mouths washed out if Mum heard us say "shut up" to one another. But the few times I had it done, I was too upset and too terrified to know why.

So as a teaching tool - fairly useless.

Don't do it. You shouldn't need to, we have better understanding these days, better tools and the kids for whom those tools don't work - well, spanking or mouth washing out won't work either.

Marg
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
Now the washing the mouth out..I did that once and looking back, I should have done it more I think because Cory cusses like a sailor. Literally every other word is a cuss word.

I did the soap when he was maybe 7 or 8 and we were in a doctor's office and he shocked me so badly by acting up and he called me a B for the first time in his life. I dragged his tiny little butt into the restroom and literally washed his mouth out with liquid hand soap and those brown paper towels. He was gagging and foaming at the mouth. I was *issed. Now he didnt cuss for quite awhile after that but then the stupid therapists told me not to battle the bad language, that we had bigger fish to fry. At this point, I think they were wrong. I should have taken on that battle too.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
The problem with kids swearing, is multiple. First, where do they learn it? I have to admit, easy child picked up a few choice words from me. I remember one conversation with her when she was about 4, I was telling her not to say $h**. I said, "It doesn't sound good coming from the mouth of a nice little girl like you. Do you know what the word means? It means 'poo'."
She thought about it and then said, "Is that why you say it when difficult child 1 has a dirty nappy?"

She also was in long day care, surrounded by people NOT me, including other kids, where bad words were uttered at various times by various people for various reasons. It is very difficult for a kid to learn to use appropriate language when it is hard to work out what is appropriate and what is not. Once they start school it gets far, far worse. Especially with boys. I remember getting a note home from difficult child 3's teacher (who is a neighbour and friend, knows us well and knows that I do NOT swear - not since that talk with easy child!) and her note was telling us that we had to teach difficult child 3 to not use bad words to his classmates, they would not want to play with him if he called them bad names. When I found out what the words were, they were clearly words that had been first used directed at difficult child 3, so how else could he have learned them? And that was on the teacher's watch!

Mow there is the third reason why people in general do swear - it is because it eases pain. Both emotional pain and physical pain. This has been scientifically tested - if you are in pain and you swear, it makes the pain easier to tolerate, than if you do not swear. My mother used to wash mouths out for using phrases like "shut up" so you can imagine how strict she was over language. She would deal with it in multiple ways. So I learned very early, to substitute. I would find words which in my mind I would label as swear words. I remember "sugar" was one for a while, until one day in the church vestry I slammed my hand in the door, yelled out "SUGAR!" really loudly, and got a glare from the minister's wife. She knew what I had really meant!

So you have three major problems in trying to stop kids swearing.

1) your own example.

2) other people's examples, including other kids whose parents/teachers are not so vigilant. This also includes the influence of the media.

3) swearing really does make it feel better.

Your own vigilance, which requires your physical presence, your personal observation in the moment and your immediate action, cannot counter all this. Especially as your child gets older, and peer pressure becomes more important. Also as the kids get older, they are no longer clinging to your skirts but instead are out climbing trees, hanging around with their mates, etc.

So I do not believe that any greater use of soap would have worked with Cory, Janet. When it comes to swearing, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to direct the eventual language use of our adult children.

My adult kids do occasionally swear in front of me. However, I object to over-use of swear words because it shows a lack of creativity. My kids learned to be creative and substitute, or to choose a better word especially if describing someone. husband has joined in - someone I was discussing with husband on Saturday, would normally have been described as a B****. husband referred to her as a "brain-dead troglodyte".
It was a far more apt label, and immensely more satisfying. This then gave a much bigger payoff, and reinforces the not swearing option.

easy child used to refer to herself as a B****. She meant it in positive terms. I remember a counsellor taking her to task, the counsellor said that to keep labelling herself with a negative word, would have negative effects on her self-esteem. But easy child insisted that for her, it was a positive term. She eventually modified it to "Babe In Total Control of Herself".

Soap not only will not prevent this in the long term, it is increasingly raising eyebrows in CPS circles.

Substitution and education have worked better for us - when difficult child 3 got the note sent home about his language ("f*gg*t retard") I explained what both those words meant. I had trouble explaining the first one, but I was able to point out that because he was still so very young, and because a person's sexual orientation was nobody else's business anyway, that mentioning it was irrelevant. As for the second word, I helped him see that it was laughable. I was also able to help him understand that generally the kid who called him those names first, was only revealing his own fears about himself - he had to attack difficult child 3 verbally, because he himself did not feel very intelligent and knew he couldn't make himself smarter, but could make difficult child 3 feel more stupid. difficult child 3 never used either of those words again. Mind you, he WILL use other choice words if a kid is being mean to him. He does use swear words. I challenge him if he over-uses, I tell him that in my house I am entitled to not have to hear such offensive words. If he wants to swear, he needs to do it in such a way as to not offend innocent bystanders.

I've also found that swearing in other languages can be just as satisfying. I have been told that Yugoslav is the most satisfying language in which to swear. You just have to make sure you choose an alternative language that does not have fluent speakers nearby. a Yugoslav/Australian girl I worked with used to swear in Yugoslav, feeling quite safe in the knowledge that few people would understand her. She told us how she was skiing one day, fell badly and swore in Yugoslav. There was only one skier nearby; he flew past, then came back. "OOH, what you just said!"
Yes, he understood Yugoslav!

I learned a few choice words in a number of languages when I worked with that girl. It has been an enlightening experience!

Marg
 

Marg's Man

Member
My definition of swearing is very broad and flexible.I define "Offensive language" as language that offends the listener.

This definition is therefore in a constant state of flux. Around my mother the F bomb is a strict no no but she will happily describe a native Australian as an "abbo" (equivalent to calling an Afro-American a ni**er). It a generational thing as well as cultural. Marg & I have to be careful here and not just because of the site censor.

Marg & I have tried to teach the kids this too.

Currently difficult child 3 is doing a lot on-line gaming, talking to his fellow 'warriors' and the language makes this ex-soldier blush. Marg gets on his case about it (I can't - he is too resistant to any such criticism from me) but we both use this definition of Offensive language.
When he objects Marg points out that SHE is the one being offended by the language. We also point out that he has dropped the f bomb in front of Grandma a couple of times because he has got into the habit. He has only avoided a tongue lashing because Grandma is so deaf that only hears every tenth word he says and is not offended.

Context also matters. I just heard an exchange between a colleague and our (female) supervisor. She called him a "d***head" and he replied that he was just having a [her name] moment. This sort of banter in the particular situation is perfectly acceptable between Australians but in a more formal setting such as a meeting would not be. Neither would have used the language in a meeting anyway.

Marg's Man
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
My grandmother used to say, loudly, "Grasshoppers!"

I also had a friend whose 3-y/o daughter was affectionately nicknamed Mockingbird... So I changed things to "son of a bear", "fudge", etc.
 

GoingNorth

Crazy Cat Lady
My mother's from England and I've got a good command of British profanity as a result. I keep it to myself on the boards as there's no shortage of people around here who know what a 'sod' is and what the term means.

In the meantime, spending so much time with her now adult grandchildren, my elderly mother has picked up an admirable command of American foul language.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
GN, of course a sod is a piece of freshly turned earth, isn't it? That first piece you cut which has the grass still attached... there's nothing else it could be. Honestly... ;)

Aussie swearing/language in common use owed a lot to British working class/convict roots. As husband just explained, we use a lot of this sort of stuff in common usage without causing offence. The social subtleties can be very tricky to non-Australians, but as GN said, it also means we have to constantly guard ourselves because language not offensive to us Down Under, could curl the hair of people from elsewhere in the world. As for using bad language or colourful expressions in meetings - one of our politicians in the house last week referred to the Leader of the Opposition as the vuvuzela of Australian politics - "all that comes out of his mouth is 'NO, NO, NO...' over and over, it's annoying and unproductive."
Or words to that effect. Constant references to BS in various forms of the expression. The F bomb doesn't get dropped in our parliament, but that's about it. It's also a stronger swear word in Australia than in the US. But we constantly get references implying one's parents were not married... it's a commonly used word here with multiple subtle meanings.

Marg
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I didnt mean I would continue using the soap but we should have laid into him on language and left sometthing else go or even work on more things harder. I dont know, in some ways I think we coddled him way too much and he is the worse for it.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
All I'm saying, Janet - don't beat yourself up over it. Peer pressure becomes a g influence often at a time when bad language becomes more of a problem.

Marg
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Oh, heck, so I'm an abuser?

First off, I agree, that with-most of our g'sfg, spanking only infuriates them more. Most of us have learned that it literally hurts us more than it hurts our kids.
Our kids do not feal fear or fear authority the way we do.

I used soap with-my son and it worked. Well, at least until he became a teenager. :)
The first time, he had no idea what was going on. He used the F-word and called me a B----. I told him that was wrong, it was hurtful and rude, and to stop it. He did it again. Totally defiant. I held the soap in my hand and told him to come over and bite it. He did, just enough to put marks on the soap.
Oh, the look on his face! (This makes a great dinnertime story now and he loves to hear it.)
So, the next time, which was about 6 mo's later, he wasn't going to fall for the soap again ... so I put a drop of liquid soap on my finger, waited a second until he screamed at me, and while his mouth was open, I wiped my finger on his tongue.
He was much angrier that I one-upped him than about the taste of the soap. He hated (and still hates) the fact that I'm in charge.

The issue here isn't really soap or spanking. It's losing control. The laws are always passed for the lowest common denominator. Very sad, because we end up with-some really rididulous laws most of the time.
End of soapbox.
 
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