Takes two to fight.

[BusynMember]

Copa you are not hurting me and I am not suffering anymore about Gone Boy. I am thinking of Heather, really.

I simply dont think we are here to tell others our personal moral opinions...that to me us like evangelizing a religion. It isnt morally wrong not to be abused even if it us your child and 43 years old is a middle age woman. I have tried being demeaned and it was....demeaning and horrible.

Grandchildren are dependent on their parents. Many children either live far from grandparents, have deceased grandparents, mean grandparents (yes, they exist) or the grands are estranged due to the parents. Grandparents are not essential to a developing child. Heck, many kids grow up without fathers. You chose this somewhat less than Beaver Cleaver setting for your son. So what? How many children grow up with intact families these days? They learn to adapt to what they know.

Unless you can walk into your child's house, hug the grand baby or grandchild, chase her, kiss her..with mom, the most important person in the child's life, smiling in approval, nobody benefits from the relationship. Kids learn early if they are with people mommy or daddy dont like. And mommy and daddy are first to a young child.

I have this awesone relationship with Buddha Baby. Oh, boy! Here I go...lol. She started out a bit tempermental but is gorgeous (an asian American love bug) who has a happy, outgoing, smiley, smart, wonderful personality. She sees me hugging her mother and father and laughing with them and we eat together and share. This is healthy for everyone. I have no rules to follow in order to be her Grammy (the name I picked).

I will be happy if she is the only grand I have that I see a lot. Bart and his son are just too far for me to get to him. This happens in a world where our kids often move far away. There is Skype, but its not yhe same.
Gone boy's kids I never met. They really dont have a special grammy because her parents live in China. And I never met his kids nor they me. I dont miss kids I dont know. I'm just glad Princess had the girl as I tend to favor girls. But I'd deal with anything thrown my way. I have learned to deal with life and stop wishing for what I cant hsve. Rather I focus with gratitude on what I do have and we all have things ti be grateful for.

I have become as strong as I once was weak. And that was REALLY weak...lol. I consider myself strong and feel stronger now and hsve no trouble being nice to myself or sticking up for myself. If you want to be in my life, then treat me well and I will treat you well. But you have to treat me well. I'm not willing,at 62, to put my health at risk for anyone. Sorry. Nope. I hope none of us are. We don't need to do that to be good people.

Yes, there is sometimes collateral damage if a family relationship goes bad, but if I didn't cause it and the other person won't be decent or meet me halfway, it is not my damage. I won't suffer on the myth that somebody cant live without me...someone who barely knows me. Somebody whose mother, child or not, hurts my husband who has been at my side for 21 years. I won't betray him.

I dont think we should sacrifice ourselves for anything. I MORALLY feel it is wrong to do so...those of us who have loving husbands in my opinion need to put them first in our later years. They were there for decades.

It is not right for us to disregard our long term husbands and jump through drmeaning ropes just to catch glimpses of a grandchild we will never be allowed to treat like our real grandchild. Groveling feels bad to all.

Copa your dear mother was not married to grandchildrens father who was being treated like a leper. So if she chose to be treated badly by your sister to see her grandkids, it was a unilateral decision that did not require the grandfather to also be mistreated. Heathers daughter is doing this split_parents_apart dance. It is heinous. I would not waltz on the dance floor with her.

What happened in our families are irrelevant to Heather. Her situation is not the same as ours. Heathers daughter is 43...an age when normal adult children start worrying snout their elderly parents, not the other way around. Since my accident, my kids are very protective of me. Its annoying....lol.

Some people just arent nice. A DNA connection doesn't guarantee love. You have a son without your DNA. Love matters more than D N A.

Heathers daughter is mean and controlling and her husband is just as bad. I dont see the benefit to anyone y allowing her to abuse her parents. The grandchild will he under their watchful eyes even if Daughter allows the parents to take her to the park for an hour. And the first time tue kid repeats something they said that daughter disagrees with, they will be banished.

I don't find if noble to be abused for any reason, especially since the one hurt here is the husband and father. Heather is right to care about his feelings. He will be there when Daughter is not. And she won't be. Nor will that mean man she married.

Peace to all!!!

 

[A dad]

Well you know the truth is in the middle maybe its just me but for over 40 years all was good and now is not.
Really for so much time she kept a relationship with her parents in spite of all isues and there was as nobody is perfect and now is all or nothing well it will be if the other side does the same. I am sure things will be better with time she values her parents more then you know the 40 something years are proof.

 

[BusynMember]

Maybe. The husband isnt helping. I wouldnt count on either to make good decisions for her in old age.

 

[Heather52]

Our problems with our daughter started to surface in her late teens. That's when she went away to university. She would come home each semester. After her second year she moved in with her boyfriend now husband. Her husband who took an immediate dislike to my husband, you add that dislike, with his extreme disrespect for most people and his poor upbringing , along with our daughters feelings towards her father. What do you think we were going to get? Not a harmonious. Family. Her resentment towards her father took on a life of its own. He never raised not once a hand to her, his crime was according to her. Was he was emotionally absent. My husband was never the buggy , missy feely guy but he loved his children deeply. He woukd at times reach out to give her a hug or a kiss on the check even has an adult.


She would push him away. She would push me away when I tried. .

So to Dad. The truth is in the middle? She tolerated him only because she didn't live with us. They only tolerated us when they wanted us to stay overnight to baby sit, she tolerated him when she wanted him to help twice with Lanscaping projects. She tolerated him when they asked to move in three times for a minimum of 8 Weeks up to 9 months while his divorced father lived in a three bedroom house 10 minutes away and all by himself. I guess her tolerance boiled over when she knew she didn't need him anymore . Her tolerance boiled over when he finally said something stupid , which I started and his father joined in. The comment was meant to be funny. We all laughed while my daughter visibly shook with anger. It boiled over when our son in law accused him of throwing sand in our grandchilds face on the beach in front of our daughter and me. In front of all the people on the beach. OMG. Their tolerance for him ended.

My husband is not a perfect man, he could be argumentative, opinionated, a fuse that would blow. Once a year , he is socially awkward , judgemental at times and could judge others harshly some times but not often. On the other side he is honest to the core, he cannot lie, sensitive, loyal to a fault , kind sensitive and a man who loves his family . He is a man who is lost without his family.

The truth is in the middle?

 

[A dad]

Okay lets take the first 18 years as she had no choice but to tolerate him but really for the next lets 20 something years did she always had a child no it was after she was after 35 but she still connected with you in spite of being with her husband for 20 years now she only stayed 9 months at most with you and she only needed your father for 2 times for landscaping. That still lets a quite some amount of years where she tolerated her parents even your son in law did the same.
You went to the beach with them you went to dinner to all kinds of stuff did they did not connect with you to use you not for so long to get so little. I think she really cares about you and your husband.

 

[Heather52]

To A Dad. Thank you for saying that she cares. Yes do she does , I know that. I know she tolerated him Fo my sake fir the best part. I never said there weren't good times in between. There were many. But last year not even for me would she tolerate him again for throwing sand according to her husband and the so called rude remark that he had made. Then came her tirades. He had to go to therapy for 6 months and during that six months we were to have no contact. Next came a letter asking me to chose between her father or her and her son. Then came the using of my grandson to punish me when I inadvertently said the wrong things.things she didn't want to hear , the back goes up and then we are punished. I can go on and on . I know I didn't handle things well. I tried to fix it. Fix her , we tried three times to discuss in person to work things out but all we got were roadblocks. Maybe we tried too soon after our fright, there were so many maybes , so many buts. This was all new to me. I didn't know how to handle it. I should have taken my husbands lead. He refused to engage. He knew if he did , it would be adding fuel to the fire and that's what I did .

Okay lets take the first 18 years as she had no choice but to tolerate him but really for the next lets 20 something years did she always had a child no it was after she was after 35 but she still connected with you in spite of being with her husband for 20 years now she only stayed 9 months at most with you and she only needed your father for 2 times for landscaping. That still lets a quite some amount of years where she tolerated her parents even your son in law did the same.
You went to the beach with them you went to dinner to all kinds of stuff did they did not connect with you to use you not for so long to get so little. I think she really cares about you and your husband.

 

[BusynMember]

its not your fault. Its not your husbands fault. And punishing with a grandchild is plain cruel.

It is that both daughter and her husband are controlling and dont mind hurting her father.Daughters husband doesnt like your husband so he's going to make sure the poor man suffers. And your daughter is doing the same. She slliws himto mistreat her father.

I agree its best not to engage. They are behaving like babies. As long as your daughter is married to this man, you will probably have trouble.

Ugh. My son married somebody I GOT A BAD VIBE FROM RIGHT AWAY, BUT I fawned all over her, hoping I was wrong. I did it for my son. In the end, he was so taken with her that he dropped his family for her. She didnt want any other women in his life, including mom and sister. Maybe this man doesnt want your daughter to love another man, even her father. Sick? Yes, but it happens.

He's probably egging her on. Sounds like a bad match. I'm sorry.

 

[Heather52]

Yes my daughter and her husband feed of each other very well. Her husband and myself always got along up and until last year. Now he even hates me more. My grandson hasn't seen his other grandmother for 4 years now. My son in law and daughter is estranged from her as well. The mother in law did something very nasty and I believe that she did it out of desperation because she was cut off. But my 5 year old grandson told me he missed her and he loved her. I reached out to the grandmother to try and find a solution not for her sake but for my grandchild sake. She refuses to apologize for something she believe in. Therefore she would rather to be right than happy. Because I reached out to her my son in law has big issues with me. I did not do it out of malice u did it for my grandson .l as he's niw been diagnosed with anxiety and suffering the loss of his other grandmother. That's my son in laws issue not mine. I'm only interested in my daughter and grandson .

 

[BusynMember]

Why does your daughter and her husband, who sounds like s big jerk, get to dictate who you talk to? Would she listen if you told her you think she is hurting your grandson by not letting him see his other grandmother, whom he loves? Is she the only one who can have an opinion? Do you have to walk on eggshells with this pair like they own you? I'm mad at them, not you. Does this relationship really make you happy? Being their puppet? Being a child who has to do their bidding?

I understand why the other grandmother would rather stay away than apologize. It is unlikely that she will ever be treated like the respectable person that she is anyway. And guard your heart. They are capable of shunning close relatives, with no caring of how it hurts there own child. Since this is their history...they could do it again.
Their child is not as important to them as punishing Grandma. Poor little boy.

I am so sorry she is your only child. it does help to have more than one, if one is this way. I so feel for you, husband and little boy. Nobody is looking out for his little heart. They wont let the grandmas do it and they sure don't.

Whatever grandma in law did, nasty or not, after the cruelty of being cut off, I cant blame her for it. A cut off from your child and his child is meaner than anything grandmother could have done. I really, really have no respect for this son in law of yours.

I hope things improve. I dont think they will, but because of how THEY are, not you and husband or other grandma. I have four grown kids. This is not normal mother/daughter interaction. So sorry.

 

[Heather52]

with the help from my councillor we drew up a letter to reach out to my daughter to try and reconcile. In this email i spoke about the only way we can move forward is to take all our misjustices, all our disappointments, all disrespect , put hem all aside to be forgotten. To never discuss old hurts again and to avoid all hot topics.

Within 2 minutes I get this scathing text from My daughter saying Her husband wants to know why I was talking to his mother last week? He sat on thus information for a whole week and decides to mention it when he sees the email. My guess was to sabotage our attempts to reconcile. My daughter doesn't or refuse to see it that way. I didn't mention to my daughter that I was talking to her hated mother in law , I seen no need because after our conversation I blocked the woman and removed her from my contacts. I set out to help her reconcile with her son and my daughter but that's the extent of my reaching out to her. She lives 2 hours drive from me, we gave nothing in common but my daughter through her hatred sees it only I'm trying to be friends with this woman. I kept telling my daughter if that were the case , why did I block her. My daughter refuses to hear me. My daughter and her husband is questioning my motives with regards to the timing of my talking to his mother and a few days later reaching out to reconcile. How they came up with anything sinister there is beyond me.

My daughter was clearly upset , I ended the conversation before it escalated. But within minutes another call of interrogation. I asked her did she not read my email and not understand its contents. She did but her hatred and her venom won out.

I told her I withdraw my letter to reconcile . I'm not dealing with this yet again. But what's mind boggling , she blames the mother in law for our failed attempt . I corrected her its not the mother in law but it was her hatred that spilled over onto our conversations that ruined it. I doubt she sees it that way or ever will.

Why do I keep doing this to myself? Salome as she holds all thus rage and hatred , reconciliation will never work between us. I can understand it woukd ve hard and impossible for her or accept. Y befriending a woman who she bitterly hates. But the woman is not my friend, nor will she ever be. But my daughter and her husband doesn't believe me . And she threw all chances for a family reconciliation away and for what?

 

[Copabanana]

My daughter was clearly upset , I ended the conversation before it escalated. But within minutes another call of interrogation.

Heather I am so proud of you!!! You sound so strong. There was disappointment, but you took the high road and you did not break. In fact you got stronger, as far as I can see it. Your boundaries got stronger.

You cannot take responsibility for what your daughter does or does not do or her whack job and controlling husband. Truly, he really seems to have issues. I worry for your daughter. She seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

But you are truly to be admired. You reached out but you did not allow yourself to be sucked in. Your daughter will not forget this act by you of courage, love, hope and goodwill. And don't minimize how important this was not just for you, but for your daughter. She knows her mother is there for her. It sounds to me like she both wants and needs you in her life but that husband keeps undermining things--he seems quite troubled actually.

A normal man would live and let live. He would want his wife to be with her family and mother. He would have tolerance. He would have his own life and not be so invested in what his wife does or does not do with her family. And his craziness about his own mother--OK. Fine don't have anything to do with her. But to treat her like she is omnipotent and has the plague? To give her that kind of power--is crazy.

Again, I am so pleased for you!!!

 

[Copabanana]

PS Your husband sounds like a wonderful man. I can understand one hundred percent why you both protect and defend him. He sounds like a man who can take care of himself, however. Unlike the son in law who sounds like is not wrapped too tight.

I agree with SWOT on this: That your daughter is influenced by her husband's weakness and toxicity. It seems that he brought out the worst in her. Which is not what we want for our kids! But this happens.

I have a friend whose son married a female counterpart of your son in law. She was a cold fish, high strung, self-centered investment banker. Her son became a house husband and never worked again! For the longest time the couple rejected his mother and she was heartbroken. And now? It completely turned around. This son and his wife are lovey dovey with the mother, my friend.

It is her other son who is difficult. One son is 50 plus, the other is late 40's. The mother about 72 or 73. When does this end?

The only person you have control of is yourself. You reached out. She could not do it. That is what I would hold onto. Meanwhile you have us!! As Scarlett said, "Tomorrow is another day."

I agree with A Dad. I believe your daughter very much wants a relationship with you and loves you and her father. People do change. That is why there is a CD. It is not just to commiserate. It is to change and help our kids change.

 

[BusynMember]

I did it too for a few years. But I found you can't make people like son in law and your daughter (who sounds like she ostracized her father before she met loser husband) listen to reason. Maybe your daughter would be more reasonable without her husband. Maybe my son would be more empathetic without his wife. We both dont know. And both stick by their spouses.

I found out that if the adult children decide to hurt and destroy your relationship, our letters make it worse.They see this as weak.

I suggest you go check out another forum. If you put Estranged Parent Stories into a search engine it should come up.

Everyone there has gone through exactly what we did and much experience, wisdom and commonality is on that forum. This is a great forum, but most here have never gone through the craziness of crazy adult kids estranging us. Our estranging kids arent nice, even if they allow others to influence them. You will see a pattern on the estrangement site...and it feels good to be at least share with others who understand.

Good luck! Do check that forum!!! It is gold.

 

[Copabanana]

Within 2 minutes I get this scathing text

You do not deserve to be a punching bag for anybody. And scathing text? I would block her. Until she learns to have limits. You and her father merit respect and nothing else. Until she and he can control themselves I would not have anything to do with either one of them. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

And as far as them being able to decide who you talk to and why--that is ludicrous. Your speaking to the mother--or any other person in the world-- has not a thing in the world do to with your daughter or her husband.

Which I think is exactly the kernel of truth here. They are scapegoating you and your husband for their own problems and lack of limits. There is a psychological term for this, actually several. Projections and externalization come to mind.

I think what you did took a whole lot of heat off the situation for you. You reached out. You took the high road. You exhibited self-control. You set a strong limit. You have everything in the world to be proud of.

And most of all, you showed your daughter that she is worth it, to you. Worth risking. Worth trying. Good for you.

 

[Heather52]

Thank you for your kind words but you give my daughter too much credit. Yes I believe she wants a relationship but she really blew this opportunity away. If she could have taken me at my word and stopped trying to control me we could have had a chance her husband really did a number on it as well. I can see why she's bitter because I had a few conversations with the woman but she needs to understand that I don't Harbo th same kind of hate towards this woman but by the same token I don't like her too much either. But she is a human being who is lost. And so is my daughter. But she is so toxic for me to be around .it takes every ounce of control to not get sucredit in. My daughter gave me an ultimatum her or Her mother in law. My instincts was to chose the mother in law bit that would have fireworks and a price to be paid. Now in hindsight I wish I chose the mother in law because I'm still having to pay the price. Lol

 

[BusynMember]

They know we love them. They use it against us. It is ugly. The scathing response us typical for these estrangements. Most of us had our letters ignored or they were turned agsinst us.

Its lose/lose.

 

[Copabanana]

Its lose/lose.

I agree with SWOT here. But I go further. Life is lose/lose. You suffer and then you die. There is no other life. That I know about. If you do, let me know.

I have lived my life for myself, in that, I believe I am my own creation. It is not in the main how others treat me but how I respond. Whether or not I respond with integrity and hope and responsibility--or in bitterness and fear and weakness. I think I am at about 50-50. 50 percent hope and 50 percent fear. Maybe I have enough time left in my life to do better.

My daughter gave me an ultimatum her or Her mother in law. My instincts was to chose the mother in law bit that would have fireworks and a price to be paid. Now in hindsight I wish I chose the mother in law because I'm still having to pay the price. Lol

You see, I would not see as important the price paid in terms of others.

From my way of thinking your daughter's and her dumb husband's behavior and ultimatums do not define you. You define you. And you did good.

I think that is where your husband is coming from--and in general, you too. But you are discombulated because your daughter is living poorly--not living up to her potential which is to be the good and excellent person you taught her to be. So you are a little bit off your game, but recovering quickly, if I say so myself!

you give my daughter too much credit.

How so? I do not see myself giving her any credit at all. I think she is acting lost and miserable and mean. But that does not mean you have to act in kind.

I believe that people do come back sometimes. But not when we want them to and need them to.

My sister never did. But then I never did my part either. I judged her. I stayed away. I did not take the high road. I did not give her a hand. I send her a birthday note every year. Maybe someday she will respond. I cannot change the past. But I can change me, now.