I had to say it...
- Thread starter Lil
- Start date
Childofmine
one day at a time
Hi Lil, another fork in the road, you are dealing with, and trying to figure out what to do.
Suggestion: Ask him to call and check on the apartment, and to get an answer (whatever the answer is, even we don't know) by Friday. Tell him you and Jabber are trying to make your own plans.
If he doesn't let you know by Friday what the apartment person said, then you make the call.
I think letting them have a chance to do the task, and giving them a reasonable (key word here) deadline, is key. Then, if they don't do it, and it affects us, and we want/need to know, then we step in.
If they get mad, they get mad.
The big issue is really not when the apartment is ready, it doesn't sound like. It's what you and Jabber decided about when he is moving out. Also, I wouldn't imagine you will want him paying for the apartment, which I would imagine they will expect payment, and not living there?
I know this stuff is hard. Isn't it amazing that what seems like a simple task that all people in life deal with becomes a Herculean task when it comes to our DCs? It's loaded with all kinds of baggage.
Hang in there. At least he has some kind of job right now. At least presumably the apartment will be ready sooner rather than later. Perhaps if he knows it is happening soon he will go out and get some temporary labor or additional work to raise a few hundred $$ to get the first bills paid.
Suggestion: Ask him to call and check on the apartment, and to get an answer (whatever the answer is, even we don't know) by Friday. Tell him you and Jabber are trying to make your own plans.
If he doesn't let you know by Friday what the apartment person said, then you make the call.
I think letting them have a chance to do the task, and giving them a reasonable (key word here) deadline, is key. Then, if they don't do it, and it affects us, and we want/need to know, then we step in.
If they get mad, they get mad.
The big issue is really not when the apartment is ready, it doesn't sound like. It's what you and Jabber decided about when he is moving out. Also, I wouldn't imagine you will want him paying for the apartment, which I would imagine they will expect payment, and not living there?
I know this stuff is hard. Isn't it amazing that what seems like a simple task that all people in life deal with becomes a Herculean task when it comes to our DCs? It's loaded with all kinds of baggage.
Hang in there. At least he has some kind of job right now. At least presumably the apartment will be ready sooner rather than later. Perhaps if he knows it is happening soon he will go out and get some temporary labor or additional work to raise a few hundred $$ to get the first bills paid.
PonyGirl65
Active Member
Absolutely agree with Childofmine, let son know you need to begin making a plan and he needs to get in touch with apt lady for answers. Friday is a fair deadline I would say.
Next thing....can you begin to imagine how you will handle it if apt lady says "oh, he told me he didn't want it anymore" or "Oh, it won't be ready until July"
Fun stuff, I know. That's another big reason why it would be good to Get Answers, cuz if they're not what you want to hear, then you can start renegotiating....
Also, Lil, I hear you saying he's not "doing anything wrong" and I just need to gently ask....How long ago was Mothers' Day?
If you're like me, you tend to "forget" those hiccups and just focus on the now. The re-start. Ok. Now. Ok? Now? But truly, if he hasn't done anything wrong in two weeks....well my friend, you need to see that it's only been two weeks....
Get information. Make a Plan.
Feel better, Jabber! Shoulder pain is no joke.
Peace
Next thing....can you begin to imagine how you will handle it if apt lady says "oh, he told me he didn't want it anymore" or "Oh, it won't be ready until July"
Fun stuff, I know. That's another big reason why it would be good to Get Answers, cuz if they're not what you want to hear, then you can start renegotiating....
Also, Lil, I hear you saying he's not "doing anything wrong" and I just need to gently ask....How long ago was Mothers' Day?
If you're like me, you tend to "forget" those hiccups and just focus on the now. The re-start. Ok. Now. Ok? Now? But truly, if he hasn't done anything wrong in two weeks....well my friend, you need to see that it's only been two weeks....
Get information. Make a Plan.
Feel better, Jabber! Shoulder pain is no joke.
Peace
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm.
This is JMO and hardly definitive. Also, I am dealing with my own 20 year old who is mature and responsible and that may make me a little less tolerant than if I still had d c. Plus I do like your son. So take my response with a grain of salt.
To me, if you are 20, unemployed, playing videogames, asking for favors, into unmotivating weed and not interested in bettering himself...that alone is doing something wrong. It's not illegal, but it's in my opinion wrong. He is too old to be so lacking in ambition and so dependent. This would not happen tiny house nor would continuing to pay rent. As sweet as your son sounds, his total lack of ambition would scare me.
I understand jabber. I think your son has so much charm, but his behavior would drive me crazy too. I do feel that our adult kids tend to stagnate emotionally while living with parents. Most adult kids don't want to live with dad and mom.
I do think that it's too bad that J is your sons only option for a roommate. My daughter is going to have two reliable roommates and that matters. She's in school so she only works part time...living alone would be impossible for her too. She'd have to stay in her dorm.
So I do see the problem with having to trust J. Do you really think J will stick it out? This IS a problem.
This is JMO and hardly definitive. Also, I am dealing with my own 20 year old who is mature and responsible and that may make me a little less tolerant than if I still had d c. Plus I do like your son. So take my response with a grain of salt.
To me, if you are 20, unemployed, playing videogames, asking for favors, into unmotivating weed and not interested in bettering himself...that alone is doing something wrong. It's not illegal, but it's in my opinion wrong. He is too old to be so lacking in ambition and so dependent. This would not happen tiny house nor would continuing to pay rent. As sweet as your son sounds, his total lack of ambition would scare me.
I understand jabber. I think your son has so much charm, but his behavior would drive me crazy too. I do feel that our adult kids tend to stagnate emotionally while living with parents. Most adult kids don't want to live with dad and mom.
I do think that it's too bad that J is your sons only option for a roommate. My daughter is going to have two reliable roommates and that matters. She's in school so she only works part time...living alone would be impossible for her too. She'd have to stay in her dorm.
So I do see the problem with having to trust J. Do you really think J will stick it out? This IS a problem.
PonyGirl65
Active Member
ugh! WHY is he screaming?! Not that it matters, cuz, it doesn't. YOU DON'T SCREAM AT YOUR PARENTS.
So sorry Lil & Jabber!!
BIG HUGS
So sorry Lil & Jabber!!
BIG HUGS
Lil
Well-Known Member
Well...it went from bad to worse...then worse than that.
He was so out of control and screaming and such that Jabber told him to leave the house and calm down or he'd call the cops to make him leave. Apparently he thought Jabber was headed for the phone because he shoved past him and Jabber - 25 years with department of corrections - reacted and grabbed him. It got somewhat physical (not a fist fight or anything - shoving) and in the end the cops were called. The idea was just to get him out of the house. Unfortunately, the old shoplifting charge that we thought he'd slipped thru the cracks on - hadn't slipped at all. He had two warrants, one for not paying the court costs, one for not doing community service. I arrived home to see him in handcuffs.
Jabber was so upset - I've never seen him so upset. My son, of course, was angry and crying. He asked me to bail him out. We always said we'd never bail him out...but after talking about it, we did. If he'd just been pulled over or something, we wouldn't have. But given that Jabber was the one who called the police...and he never intended to press any charges, never intended an arrest, he just wanted him to be made to leave and calm down...well that was different.
So bail is posted. Jabber and I are home. I dropped the son off with friends. He was told he could come home, or not, as he wished. I let Jabber make the call on whether we put him out. He chose to let him stay, on (my) condition - that he NOT be bringing this up and sniping about it. He got a bit of a lecture from me...mostly about how it is NOT all his dad's fault. All he had to do was leave the house and CALM the hell DOWN.
It was over nothing. It was over him wanting a ride and Jabber saying no. So he walked the 1/2 mile to the bus stop in the rain, realized he left his money, called Jabber screaming about it, got hung up on because we just won't be yelled at, and came home in the rain still in full-bore tantrum. I have no idea why it set him off so much. He'd called me screaming about it...how no one would help him when all he wanted was a ride, etc. It was...bizarre. He got paid from that little 3 day job he quit and should have been in a good mood. \
And there were no mood-altering substances involved. He'd gotten a pack of cigarettes, but otherwise had not spent any of his pay that deposited at midnight. He hadn't gone anywhere.
He hasn't had a melt-down since the day he moved in and we told him we wouldn't put up with them. By rights, we should have kicked him out today. It was his first question when he got in the car. I made sure I let him know the only reason he wasn't was because his dad said to let him stay.
We did contact the landlord. She thinks the apartment will be ready June 1, if the city inspections go okay. Not soon enough for us. Too soon for him. Too bad. I told him that he has until then to be ready, so he best keep his money and quit spending it on beer and other nonsense. He was also told that we won't have him bringing liquor into the house anymore. It seems a bit hypocritical, we have wine in the house after all, but the fact is, it bothers me and if there was no other reason, he needs to save every penny anyway.
I wish I understood what happened today. I don't know what set him off other than he was wet and cold and pissed off and just flipped out like he does. I can't get over the fact he did it to Jabber! He knows his dad won't put up with his shouting and crap the way I do.
So now he has court June 15. Maybe he'll go to jail...all because he didn't do the freaking community service I had all worked out for him a year ago. I'm just...exhausted and numb.
He was so out of control and screaming and such that Jabber told him to leave the house and calm down or he'd call the cops to make him leave. Apparently he thought Jabber was headed for the phone because he shoved past him and Jabber - 25 years with department of corrections - reacted and grabbed him. It got somewhat physical (not a fist fight or anything - shoving) and in the end the cops were called. The idea was just to get him out of the house. Unfortunately, the old shoplifting charge that we thought he'd slipped thru the cracks on - hadn't slipped at all. He had two warrants, one for not paying the court costs, one for not doing community service. I arrived home to see him in handcuffs.
Jabber was so upset - I've never seen him so upset. My son, of course, was angry and crying. He asked me to bail him out. We always said we'd never bail him out...but after talking about it, we did. If he'd just been pulled over or something, we wouldn't have. But given that Jabber was the one who called the police...and he never intended to press any charges, never intended an arrest, he just wanted him to be made to leave and calm down...well that was different.
So bail is posted. Jabber and I are home. I dropped the son off with friends. He was told he could come home, or not, as he wished. I let Jabber make the call on whether we put him out. He chose to let him stay, on (my) condition - that he NOT be bringing this up and sniping about it. He got a bit of a lecture from me...mostly about how it is NOT all his dad's fault. All he had to do was leave the house and CALM the hell DOWN.
It was over nothing. It was over him wanting a ride and Jabber saying no. So he walked the 1/2 mile to the bus stop in the rain, realized he left his money, called Jabber screaming about it, got hung up on because we just won't be yelled at, and came home in the rain still in full-bore tantrum. I have no idea why it set him off so much. He'd called me screaming about it...how no one would help him when all he wanted was a ride, etc. It was...bizarre. He got paid from that little 3 day job he quit and should have been in a good mood. \
And there were no mood-altering substances involved. He'd gotten a pack of cigarettes, but otherwise had not spent any of his pay that deposited at midnight. He hadn't gone anywhere.
He hasn't had a melt-down since the day he moved in and we told him we wouldn't put up with them. By rights, we should have kicked him out today. It was his first question when he got in the car. I made sure I let him know the only reason he wasn't was because his dad said to let him stay.
We did contact the landlord. She thinks the apartment will be ready June 1, if the city inspections go okay. Not soon enough for us. Too soon for him. Too bad. I told him that he has until then to be ready, so he best keep his money and quit spending it on beer and other nonsense. He was also told that we won't have him bringing liquor into the house anymore. It seems a bit hypocritical, we have wine in the house after all, but the fact is, it bothers me and if there was no other reason, he needs to save every penny anyway.
I wish I understood what happened today. I don't know what set him off other than he was wet and cold and pissed off and just flipped out like he does. I can't get over the fact he did it to Jabber! He knows his dad won't put up with his shouting and crap the way I do.
So now he has court June 15. Maybe he'll go to jail...all because he didn't do the freaking community service I had all worked out for him a year ago. I'm just...exhausted and numb.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Lil. I can't believe it escalated so quickly. I left to do my CPR class and came back to this???
Oh no.
I will say what I think.
I think he cannot deal much with ambiguity in his life right now. No shades of gray for him. There was the delay in the apartment. Consequently there was the lack of clarity about how long he could stay with you guys (the give an inch aspect....) There was the fact that there was no immediate peril in front of him *thus, low motivation. There was the uncertainty over roommates. The job, he was ambivalent about.
Not one of these things alone justifies a response like he had.
Personally, I think the arrest was a good thing, and the fact that Jabber called the cops, too.
I think you and Jabber have every reason to tighten up on him a great deal, and to not tolerate anything at all.
These outbursts require a response either, one insisting he get evaluated by a psychiatrist, and/or anger management classes, or leave the house.
That is my opinion.
Either these emotional reactions are beyond his control or current capacity to handle in a mature fashion and he needs medication, training or psychotherapy to achieve that control, or he need not be living in your space should he choose to not avail himself of such.
Adults control their emotional reactions. Or they learn to. Or they leave where they are.
Last edited:
Lil
Well-Known Member
He was apparently in such a state when the cops got here that they suggested to Jabber, then to me, a 96 hour hold...basically in the psychiatric ward for 4 days. Obviously, we didn't go that route. Why? 2 reasons. #1, he can be very manipulative and has a talent for saying what people want to hear - well, everyone except us - and when he's calm, I don't think that anyone would see what is going on. HE doesn't even understand what he's like when he loses his temper like that. #2, I think it would just make things worse right now. He'd lose his new job, he'd have even less way to support himself and get ready to move and most of all, he'd hate us. Strange as it seems, he's gotten better. Today was awful, but these sort of outbursts used to be more frequent.
I wish he'd see a psychiatrist. Next time I speak to him, I am going to insist he go back to the counselor. He liked her. He went 3 times. He stopped.
I don't know what to say or do anymore. Today I feel more lost than I have since I first came to this site.
I wish he'd see a psychiatrist. Next time I speak to him, I am going to insist he go back to the counselor. He liked her. He went 3 times. He stopped.
I don't know what to say or do anymore. Today I feel more lost than I have since I first came to this site.
Albatross
Well-Known Member
Oh Lil, I am sorry. What a mess for you and Jabber.
I remember the last time we made my son leave the house. It was dinner and a show for the neighbors, with husband, son and I all screaming at each other and me grabbing armfuls of my son's belongings and tossing them into the front yard.
What a nightmare.
I'm so sorry you and Jabber had to go through that.
I agree with everything Copa said above. If he is that incapable of handling frustration, he needs to either get help or take it elsewhere. You and Jabber do not need to be a party to that, for your sakes. And for your son's sake, he will never learn to control his temper if he is shielded from the consequences of losing it.
Lil, I would bet a nickel there are drugs involved. That is the only thing that explains such irrational behavior. Just because he didn't pay for them doesn't mean he didn't get them.
If you truly feel there are no drugs involved, I think I would first verify that with a drug test. If that comes back clean, I think you need to insist on some neuropsychologist testing. You may be afraid of what you find, but it is better than torturing yourself with a thousand what-ifs and him not making any progress.
If he is offended by either of those requirements, I would tell him they are a condition of staying with you, period. You and Jabber will not be subject to any more irrational outbursts like you witnessed today. A promise to not do it anymore is not enough.
Again, I am so sorry to hear you, Jabber and your son are going through this. I am hoping that the explosion leads to some insight for him.
I remember the last time we made my son leave the house. It was dinner and a show for the neighbors, with husband, son and I all screaming at each other and me grabbing armfuls of my son's belongings and tossing them into the front yard.
What a nightmare.
I'm so sorry you and Jabber had to go through that.
I agree with everything Copa said above. If he is that incapable of handling frustration, he needs to either get help or take it elsewhere. You and Jabber do not need to be a party to that, for your sakes. And for your son's sake, he will never learn to control his temper if he is shielded from the consequences of losing it.
Lil, I would bet a nickel there are drugs involved. That is the only thing that explains such irrational behavior. Just because he didn't pay for them doesn't mean he didn't get them.
If you truly feel there are no drugs involved, I think I would first verify that with a drug test. If that comes back clean, I think you need to insist on some neuropsychologist testing. You may be afraid of what you find, but it is better than torturing yourself with a thousand what-ifs and him not making any progress.
If he is offended by either of those requirements, I would tell him they are a condition of staying with you, period. You and Jabber will not be subject to any more irrational outbursts like you witnessed today. A promise to not do it anymore is not enough.
Again, I am so sorry to hear you, Jabber and your son are going through this. I am hoping that the explosion leads to some insight for him.
Lil
Well-Known Member
He didn't leave the house except in Jabber's company, the one time.
You see, he's ALWAYS done this. When he was little, it was just temper tantrums. Worse than most kids, yes, but kids throw tantrums. But he didn't ever outgrow it. His later teen years, he got worse. Now they are less frequent...but intense.
The date is set. Early June. Two weeks roughly.
I just ... it's done. I don't know what else to say.
Lil
Well-Known Member
You aren't wrong. He's always had tantrums. He's always been moody. We used to say he was like a teenage girl. Even as an infant, not walking yet, he'd have episodes where he'd get so angry...he's ball his tiny fists and grit his toothless gums together and just scream. Not a cry, not distress...screaming. His first real tantrum he was 2...he just lost it. Eventually, I realized he didn't even know I was there anymore...he was just lost in his head screaming and - I smacked him. I couldn't think of what else to do - he literally didn't know I was there. I felt like a monster after; my hand was as big as his whole face! But he stopped screaming, started crying, and went to sleep....just like that. But kid's have tantrums right? And I just expected it.
And it's not like he couldn't control himself. When he was 3 he had a tantrum that lasted like 1/2 an hour. I was so worn out from trying to deal with him (he was trying to leave the house, so I couldn't just let him alone) that I stuck him in a cold shower. I pulled him out and he screamed at me and tried to bite me and I said, "Back you go" and he said, "NO IT'S COLD" and that was that. He calmed down. After that, for several years, I could just say, "Do you want to go in the shower?" and he'd calm down.
Eventually, that stopped working though, he got too big to threaten with that.
So yeah, terrible temper...but it never seemed to be a real "problem" until a few years ago...you see, he won't let it go. He won't leave you alone and let everyone calm down. He gets in your face and won't stop. You leave the room, he follows. You tell him to go away, he refuses. It's ... exhausting. Does he do this with anyone else? I don't know. Probably. It's what got him kicked out of his grandparents, but he wasn't this bad there. He left the house and calmed down without being told to. So it's really just us.
And it's not like he couldn't control himself. When he was 3 he had a tantrum that lasted like 1/2 an hour. I was so worn out from trying to deal with him (he was trying to leave the house, so I couldn't just let him alone) that I stuck him in a cold shower. I pulled him out and he screamed at me and tried to bite me and I said, "Back you go" and he said, "NO IT'S COLD" and that was that. He calmed down. After that, for several years, I could just say, "Do you want to go in the shower?" and he'd calm down.
Eventually, that stopped working though, he got too big to threaten with that.
So yeah, terrible temper...but it never seemed to be a real "problem" until a few years ago...you see, he won't let it go. He won't leave you alone and let everyone calm down. He gets in your face and won't stop. You leave the room, he follows. You tell him to go away, he refuses. It's ... exhausting. Does he do this with anyone else? I don't know. Probably. It's what got him kicked out of his grandparents, but he wasn't this bad there. He left the house and calmed down without being told to. So it's really just us.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
For the first time, Lil, I love you and Jabber...and I think your son is very possibly mentally ill. That kind of tantrum, still frequently occurring at his age, is not normal at all, especially if no drugs are involved. I know he is an adult and has to seek help on his own. I hope he realizes this once he is out of the home. Certainly he must know that 20 year olds do not throw sober tantrums (if drugs are involved it's way different).
I don't think he is a bad person at all. I do think he needs to find mental health treatment. From the description of his young years, sounds like he was born with an unstable temperament and it has not gotten more in control as he ages. Kind of like he is wired differently in some way.
Thinking of all of you tonight.
I don't think he is a bad person at all. I do think he needs to find mental health treatment. From the description of his young years, sounds like he was born with an unstable temperament and it has not gotten more in control as he ages. Kind of like he is wired differently in some way.
Thinking of all of you tonight.
Lil
Well-Known Member
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...osive-disorder/basics/definition/con-20024309
This has occurred to me now and then. Except for causes and risk factors...which simply don't fit.
But the behavior fits very well.
I don't know what to do...I don't know what to say to him or how to deal with this anymore. He hadn't gone off since the first night...when he did and we told him we weren't putting up with it again. I don't know what set him off today or how to deal with it anymore.
I'm tired everyone. Jabber took a muscle relaxer and went to bed. He hurt his arm worse in the altercation today. I wish I didn't have to get up tomorrow and work, but I have no choice. I think I have to go to bed.
Or not. He just asked me to come pick him up. Guess he will be home tonight after all.
This has occurred to me now and then. Except for causes and risk factors...which simply don't fit.
But the behavior fits very well.
I don't know what to do...I don't know what to say to him or how to deal with this anymore. He hadn't gone off since the first night...when he did and we told him we weren't putting up with it again. I don't know what set him off today or how to deal with it anymore.
I'm tired everyone. Jabber took a muscle relaxer and went to bed. He hurt his arm worse in the altercation today. I wish I didn't have to get up tomorrow and work, but I have no choice. I think I have to go to bed.
Or not. He just asked me to come pick him up. Guess he will be home tonight after all.
TheWalrus
I Am The Walrus
I agree that is sounds like something psychological if drugs are not a factor. My daughter can go from zero to full-scale terrorist explosion over nothing. Be very charming one minute, hateful and spiteful the next. Manipulative like you cannot imagine. And she only gets worse as she gets older. The temper? All of her life. Drugs only ratcheted everything up to completely unbearable - and still does. I sympathize. I know how hard it is to try to reason with someone who is not only irrational, but full of rage and anger to a point that everything and everyone else is blocked out. Prayers your way.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Lil. This reply is for tomorrow. If you have not yet gone to bed, go.
To me this reasoning is like the parents whosecollege kids are using drugs and alcohol and decide to leave them in place, because the college is so important. There is a hierarchy of importance and health and safety are number 1. College, jobs are way less important, and whether our kids hate us, not important at all.
I disagree here.
To me this reasoning is like the parents whosecollege kids are using drugs and alcohol and decide to leave them in place, because the college is so important. There is a hierarchy of importance and health and safety are number 1. College, jobs are way less important, and whether our kids hate us, not important at all.
Wishing does no good. Make it a condition of any help from you. Now. Your son has way too much power, I think.
These outbursts seem to me to go on too long. Immediately call 911. He needs not to be in your house until he learns to control himself. The responsibility is his, not yours. You cannot solve it for him. The only power you have here is to insist he seek psychiatric help/anger management counseling, and/or to make him leave your home. He is an adult.
The problem is his to deal with and solve. Lil. I do not want to be harsh, but by letting him come back and deciding against the 5150 evaluation is to empower this behavior.
Lil. Jabber's work status is at risk here. These episodes are by definition out of control. They can escalate. Nobody has the kind of self-control to completely rule out something emergent happening. Jabber has to take responsibility for both sides, because your son just inflames the situation.
PonyGirl65
Active Member
Really tough stuff. Sending good thoughts. I completely get where you're at, Lil! You're getting lots of good input from our wonderful warrior parents, and I really understand that you're "done". I just want to tell you: That's okay! Give yourself permission to be "done" for now. Take a few days, a week, and don't make any decisions. Do the next right thing and let it go. Give yourself a break from figuring everything out. It's okay to step back for a little bit. Regroup and heal.
And just by the way, if your son ends up going to jail over the past offenses....well, then the bright side is, that stuff is no longer going to be hanging over him! (And I would venture to say, he's not going to jail) but if he does, he does.
I have the firm belief that everything happens exactly the way it's supposed to happen. If he goes to jail, it's to "save" him from some other consequence. Or, he's supposed to meet someone there. Or, someone there is supposed to meet him. And we won't always know the reason, or the outcome, But it's supposed to happen exactly the way it does.
Hugs to you all tonite.
Peace
And just by the way, if your son ends up going to jail over the past offenses....well, then the bright side is, that stuff is no longer going to be hanging over him! (And I would venture to say, he's not going to jail) but if he does, he does.
I have the firm belief that everything happens exactly the way it's supposed to happen. If he goes to jail, it's to "save" him from some other consequence. Or, he's supposed to meet someone there. Or, someone there is supposed to meet him. And we won't always know the reason, or the outcome, But it's supposed to happen exactly the way it does.
Hugs to you all tonite.
Peace
