Another lock / If he only had a brain/vent

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Star*, Feb 14, 2008.

  1. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Hi all,

    I guess this is just a sigh post - not a vent really. I have no one but ME to look at when I am frustrated about the situation I brought to my home after getting Dude out of the group home and jail.

    Other than the My Space fiasco - he's been Dude for sure. But someone PLEASE tell me WHY he snoops and collects things (basically stealing). I mean over and over and over and over and over and over - it's like his brain does NOT get it. All week long DF and I have been finding our stuff - like my comb - he used it got hair grease in it. I found it and made him wash it out - and told him Don't Touch it again. I put it in my little hair brush drawer and this morning it is gone.
    Sun glasses are beyond temptation - I found 3 pair of my sunglasses in his room. I made him put them back, I went this morning to get them? Nope - gone. And then found another pair AGAIN in his room.

    I bought Valentines candy to make up little sachets - and what was left wasn't much - but I hid it - I found the bags last night - empty.

    My jewelery box? There is nothing in there for him - and this morning I find he's taken a chain off a very special piece of costume jewelery my Mom gave me. I found a bracelet he gave me years ago in his little box, and I found my art supplies, pens, markers and xacto knives laying all over the place.

    He even went through the drawers in my office of Scrapbooking materials and things - WHY?

    I do not get this - we tell him DO NOT TOUCH OUR STUFF - and he said "Okay I get it" and then not even 3 minutes later - He is IN our stuff and taking things, using them - and then lies about it even when he is caught.

    He asked if he could watch tv in my room. I said OK. I walk back to my room 10 minutes later and he has pushed ALL the covers and the duvet up towards the head board - and has the dogs sand and all on my bed -
    We've told him not to take food or drinks in there - and i nearly tripped over the bowl of popcorn and soda.
    I told him he's lost the next phone call from his buddy. And there has been consequences for each rule broken...but I can't explain it - it's like what goes in one ear - does not stick. I could see the no food, no drink thing - maybe you forget the rule a week later but this is like - 5 minutes later and he doesn't hear you.

    Am I missing something? Does this sound like ANYTHING you've ever seen before. I have the rules posted, I have the consequences posted. The minute you turn your back - he is WORSE than he was at 3 years old. So now I'm sending DF out on Valentines day - and he's going to put another lock on another door - and I'll carry around another set of keys....(insert silent scream)

    Oh and the caseworker ? They told me not to worry about paying his back due restitution and fines? yeah well they called yesterday and said "Well we didn't get him any help you are going to have to pay the back due or he goes to jail."

    --Tempting as that is - I just don't think that's where he needs to be - Although DF did say if he did or does end up doing 6 years - 1.) We know we gave him the best last days of freedom we could so no regrets and 2.) If he does go to prison and snoops - one @$$ whippin should cure him from that. I sat there with a blank look on my face and said "True - ....(long pause) then...."Do you think if I whipped his butt like an inmate for going through my stuff he'd stop?" and I got the same blank stare back - and then (long pause) "Probably not".


    Send glue - hurry!

    Thanks for the vent -
  2. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    My teen difficult child has always had this "need" to explore drawers and personal stuff that belongs to others. If you are ever looking for something...just ask difficult child. He takes pride in "knowing".

    He does not steal valuables. He does take things that are not his and just as you described they are in view in his room. Each time he says
    "sorry". He qualifies "I didn't break it" or "I didn't steal it"..." I just wanted to look at it" or "I just borrowed it" or "I didn't think you would care if I took it for awhile."

    I have a weird theory that by "knowing" "touching" "holding" and "seeing" that he feels connected to the family. His personality is unusual
    and due to the AS he often is in his own world. Like Dude, his memory
    can imitate an elephant OR he can "forget" that everyone was called to the table for dinner five minutes before. It is strange & frustrating. DDD
  3. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Strange is right - we have therapy tonight and I FULLY intend on asking the Dr. about this - It is WORSE than it has ever been.....oh AND....

    If he asks permission ONE TIME for use of this or that - and you say "YES but just for this time." or even trying to outsmart the rat in his maze of a brain you say "THIS IS THE ONLY time I'm giving permission, yes" so he doesn't hear yes first and then zone out -

    It's like it's a blanket exemption for ALL TIMES and I so know what you mean - I get the "I didn't break it" "What's the big deal?" "They are only scissors" "Here TAKE your stupid (whatever)"

    I tried to delete some of his old email messages on MY space last night in an attempt to get my computer to run a hair faster than a snail since he put it on - and OH MY GOSH - I was snooping - I invaded - He was livid.

    I could only muster (sadly) "WELL NOW you know how it feels when someone snoops in your stuff." It ended with me wiping MS totally out of my computer - to which he flipped another whig - until he saw that what I said I was doing - is what I was actually doing - deleting old IM chats and emails - then I was the Queen of the World......and he wanted to kiss my head and call me nice things-

    Gosh 10 minutes before that he walked past my desk screaming I was a snoop - and farted in my direction and said something about Here's a kiss for ya.

    I honestly am starting to question if his brilliance isn't really a rare form of mental retardation in disguise. He leaves everyone he meets speechless and scratching their heads.

    :whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag: Enough already -
  4. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member are describing Cory to T.

    Read this:

    Diagnostic Features:

    Antisocial Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by persistent disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. Deceit and manipulation are central features of this disorder. For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be at least 18, and must have had some symptoms of Conduct Disorder (i.e., delinquency) before age 15. This disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing.


    Individuals with this disorder have an increased risk of dying prematurely by violent means (e.g., suicide, accidents, and homicide). Prolonged unemployment, interrupted education, broken marriages, irresponsible parenting, homelessness, and frequent incarceration are common with this disorder.


    Anxiety Disorders, Depressive Disorders, Substance-Related Disorders, Somatization Disorder, Pathological Gambling (and other impulse control disorders), and other Personality Disorders (especially Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic) frequently co-occur with this disorder.

    Associated Laboratory Findings:

    No laboratory test has been found to be diagnostic of this disorder.


    The prevalence of Antisocial Personality Disorder in the general population is about 3% in males and 1% in females. It is seen in 3% to 30% of psychiatric outpatients.


    The course of this disorder is chronic. This disorder is usually worse in young adulthood and often improves in middle age.

    Familial Pattern:

    This disorder is more common among first-degree biological relatives of those with the disorder than in the general population. There is also an increased familial risk for Substance-Related Disorders and Somatization Disorder

    Signs and symptoms

    The classic person with an antisocial personality is indifferent to the needs of others and may manipulate through deceit or intimidation. He or she shows a blatant disregard for what is right and wrong, may have trouble holding down a job, and often fails to pay debts or fulfill parenting or work responsibilities. They are usually loners.
    People with antisocial personality disorder can be aggressive and violent and are likely to have frequent encounters with the law. However, some antisocial personalities may also possess a considerable amount of charm and wit.
    Common characteristics of people with antisocial personality disorder include:
    • Persistent lying or stealing
    • Recurring difficulties with the law
    • Tendency to violate the rights of others (property, physical, sexual, emotional, legal)
    • Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
    • Inability to keep a job
    • A persistent agitated or depressed feeling (dysphoria)
    • Inability to tolerate boredom
    • Disregard for the safety of self or others
    • A childhood diagnosis of conduct disorders
    • Lack of remorse for hurting others
    • Possessing a superficial charm or wit
    • Impulsiveness
    • A sense of extreme entitlement
    • Inability to make or keep friends
    The intensity of symptoms tends to peak during the teenage years and early 20s and then may decrease over time. It's not clear whether this is a result of aging or an increased awareness of the consequences of reckless behavior. However, though a person with antisocial personality disorder might be less likely to commit crimes later in life, that person may continue to be an inadequate spouse or parent and an unreliable employee.
  5. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    Welcome to life with Travis. Twenty-one years I've spent trying to get the boy to grasp the concept of personal boundries, and he still has yet to "get it". Honestly, doctor told me years ago he just may not be able to ever get it. I'm just grateful his "borrowing" is limited to those who live with him.

    This issue used to infuriate me to no end with the boy. Til I just started the step back thing and just watched silently this behavior in progress. He doesn't do it to be malicious or even mean. It just never enters his mind that something within the house isn't fair game for his use, regardless of who it belongs to. He's improved greatly with age, but the issue is ever present. I think it always will be to some degree.

  6. Suz

    Suz (the future) MRS. GERE

    Star, Rob was like that the last year he was home. Nothing was safe. He simply didn't care.

    I asked him a few months ago about that last year and what we could have done differently. He said, "nothing, Mom. You did nothing wrong- I just wanted out, is all."

    And I replied, "Well, you got your wish."


    Reading your post brought back those nightmarish days and nights. There's nothing you can do to change their behavior if they are hellbent on destruction. I'm so sorry you are living that way. It almost killed me and I was healthier than you are now.

    If you haven't already done so, start your countdown to 18.

  7. Star*

    Star* call 911

    I have found a group home/I talked to the director/I told her ALL and I mean ALL about Dude - she said to have our caseworker send in the application.

    I called caseworker yesterday - they are not helping a bit. DF figures that they feel we are able to handle him and will drag this out till he's 18 - and then dump his case. I fear he could be right.

    So Tuesday I have to take him to probation- my options are: Pay 605.00 in back fines that he really didn't understand he owes or allow him to go to jail.

    If he goes back - the chances are that he'll spend 6 years in adult prison for bogus charges are about 100%. If he goes back - hes' done. He'll get a Public Defender for his upcoming case - but there will be no contact or interventions with parents or caseworkers pleading his case. There will be no services for him and he'll get out of prison 23 no education - (prison will not help him with GED like he needs) and he'll have no job. That means that he would seek me and DF out for a couch or place to stay and the nightmare continues.

    If we pay the $605.00 - at probation Tuesday - we keep him out of jail until his new court date - we have to get him into a group home (because if he's not in a foster care situation WE pay (court ordered) for his attorney to the tune of $25,000.00 to start. And either way I am out a buttload of money that I can't afford. At least if we pay the $605.00 NOW - this gives caseworkers a chance to get him into a group home setting, that will help him get a job and he'll be able to pay for his own probation. Oh did I mention we have to drive dang near to NC for this? ARGH......

    I told DF this morning - just go buy another lock. difficult child called me after getting out of school and has denied ALL the allegations of my necklaces and stuff being moved.

    ARGh ARGH>
  8. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    Face it, Star. He has convinced himself that he is entitled to it all. It's not that he doesn't hear or understand, it's that he doesn't care.

    in my humble opinion, his being there isn't doing him any good, and it's harming you and DF. He has to go. Where to is beyond the skill set of any parent.
  9. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Or, Witz, he "can't care". There is a fine line between "won't" "does not" and "can't". Honestly I don't think anybody knows which description is accurate with kids like him...........or many of our kids. My kid, I swear, wants to be perfect more than any kid I've ever met. Can't do it!
  10. Star*

    Star* call 911

    We talked to the psychiatrist tonight -

    He said "Get him out now" and that we are seeing a budding Anti-Social Personality - so -Daisy - he still LIVES with you? OG, OMG. I din't even want to fathom life with Dude that long - Janet you are right it is budding ASPD but I was told HE CAN change if he wants - he just chooses not to, Witz If there is a mirror for bluntness in my life I'm glad it's you, and D3, you have the most remarkable way of tempering sense with love.

    Getting him out now is nothing new - there was suggestion of Army too - ANything but continuing to live here and upset DF and myself.

    Sigh - It's just IF.
  11. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    No argument with that here. Whatever it is, though, it's an absence of empathy and respect. I can't figure out why they want Star to believe that they think she can fix that when they with all of their heads put together can't! I'm totally not buying into that! Honestly, I think that they are just hoping that whatever happens, it will happen at Star's house and they won't be responsible.
  12. wakeupcall

    wakeupcall Well-Known Member

    I don't know if you all are scaring me to death or opening my eyes. difficult child acts exactly like this. He gets into EVERYTHING. Does he think I don't know it? I can't figure out why he cares about my jewelry? In fact, he wants to wear my ring(s) all the time. (I think NOT.) He isn't malicious, but jeeeez why is he interested in the least? I kept thinking he would outgrow this...but it's not happening.
  13. janebrain

    janebrain New Member

    Hi Star,
    I read a really good book on anti-social personality disorder, called "The Sociopath Next Door"--it gives a really good look at what people who have the disorder are like and why you should run as fast as you can from any dealings with them. One of the main things I learned is that they truly have no conscience so they have no desire to be any different. They think the rest of us are fools and get what we deserve. It is very scary.
    Thinking of you,
  14. mrscatinthehat

    mrscatinthehat Seussical

    This would be why pockets were banned for difficult child 2. It didn't cure the issue but it helped as he had less places to hide things. Good luck with this.


  15. Big Bad Kitty

    Big Bad Kitty lolcat


    I don't know what to say. At all. But I am praying for you and Dude. A lot.
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member

    Star....of course they can change but only if THEY want to...we cant make them or force them to want to make that change. Trust me, I have tried everything under the sun to try and make Cory want to change...Nope! I even had hope that wanting to be with his child day in and day out would be the difference. Nope.

    I dont get it myself. I know I have the borderline personality diagnosis but at some point I figured out that I needed some self preservation skills. I didnt want to live my life in a cage. I dont like being locked up. Therefore I kept my idiotic activities to just this side of the line. I also didnt have that entitlement issue. I probably had the opposite problem...I always felt I was wrong.

    Star...I dont think you can do much else. They have to hit bottom and want to make the changes for THEM. Dont risk your life savings on him. It wont make a difference. He will swear on a stack of bibles that he has changed but it wont last.
  17. Star*

    Star* call 911

    His biofather is a sociopath. So that is strike one.

    However - the fact that genetically he's 1/2 me - and I'm basically as normal as the next person (DO NOT LAUGH) gives him less than 1/2 a chance of being affected.

    The fact that since we KNEW about bio dad and got difficult child into counseling at an early age has helped tremendously. Dude to this day won't give any credit to being in any Residential Treatment Center (RTC) as a help - he just "matured" and it happened to him. He won't take medications - refused an offer last night. He swears that it's not everything else - it's that he has such a horrible temper is what the problem is.

    Last night after therapy - he didn't want to get out of the car. He needed to vent. He did for a solid 1/2 hr. He told me what it is like to live in his body every day. He said he takes no stock in any diagnosis he's been given like ADHD as he doesn't like labels.

    I told him to describe a day in his body and he said:

    I wake up, and sometimes I just wake up po'd at the world. I mean I didn't have a bad nights sleep, no one bothered me in the morning - I just wake up and there I am angry again. Then I get ready for school, and as I head outside there may be someone walking past me with his shoes laced up and I see them and I don't like the way he laces up his shoes and THAT makes me more angry, and then I get into school, and I'm still thinking that I woke up po'd and then I saw that guys shoes and as I enter the classroom I notice that everyone has a new pencil and I'm writing with a short, nub and it has no eraser, and that makes me even more angry and I sit there - and I'm angry and I can't hear the teacher, i can't think about the paper on my desk because I'm thinking about waking up angry, that guys shoe laces, my stupid short nubby pencil and then the teacher interrupts me - and now the class is laughing at me and that adds to my anger and i have NO idea why she interrupted me - I just know now kids are laughing at me and then I leave school and in the car on the way home - I think ARGH IF I can't listen to some very really loud music with a deep bass I'm going to break something I feel at this point the music makes me calm, but I can't turn the radio up, and I start thinking about how I can break something or tear something up and at that point mom is usually when you say "What is wrong do you want to talk? " and it's not that I don't think you care it's just that I'm thinking about all this other stuff and you ask, and I don't reply and you ask again - and I think to myself
    "I WISH SHE"D LEAVE ME THE H ALONE." and so we get home - and I have nothing to tear up, nothing to take apart because taking apart stuff calms me down....and so I go for a walk - and throw rocks, because screaming into a pillow and beating the heck out of your bed does not work - it's stupid. And when I go for a walk - I think - WHY WHY DUDE - WHAT is wrong with you? Why did you wake up angry? Why do you even care what the shoe laces looked like on that man? SO you had a short pencil and everyone had a long one - Dang man - that's stupid.....and why did I bite my Moms head off - she just asked how I was - she cares - and then I feel like a HUGE @hole - and then I sit and sometimes - I just talk it out with myself and then othertimes it's like my brain says "Nope you aren't done being angry yet." and I just don't know what I have to be angry about - I have 2 great parents, I have a nice house, I'm finally in a school now where I am not wasting my time and paying attention - and I just can't get over the anger Momma - HOW do I - I'm always so angry I think I was BORN angry ? (to which I said he was an absolute joy and NOT angry - fussy about his stomach but a joy to have and a happy toddler )

    Then he said that EMDR and therapy arent' going to work for him - and I said "Well what do you think will?" and he said "I don't know - I really don't know maybe getting older? but I know I'm sick of being like this - I feel like I've been angry forever." I just want a normal life I wanted friends, I want to hang out with kids - go to the mall, and have sleepovers and go skating and stuff WITH kids my age - and have friends that aren't daring me into stupid stuff - and now I'm 17, no education, no job, I'm probably going back to prison for life - and momma I just won't tell you I won't make it there and you can make that what you want it to be (I assume suicide) and I know you and Poppa are trying to help me and I just get so angry - What do you do when you get angry. I told him I sit quietly and pray or go for a walk in the woods. Then he said " I just feel like my life is gone, over - and it's wasted, and I cant' stop being angry - what is wrong with me?"

    I asked him if I could think about it - and in true smartkid fashion he says "I suppose I'll be the topic of conversation with you on the Conduct Disorders Board tomorrow." (then he laughed) and went in the house, cleaned his room, made his bed, took his dirty laundry out to the washroom and got a note pad and paper and asked his dad what needed to be done tomorrow - work wise - so he could stay out of trouble.

    So what now? I swear I feel like anything I think of is like a last ditch effort to help or grasping at straws, but he's NEVER told me how he feels or said he wouldn't wish his life or how he feels on anyone.

    I'm really at a loss = I am going to print what he said out and take it to the psychiatric. Maybe he'll be in placement by then. He did confess to taking the stuff in the house - but he swears he has no idea why he does it and explained it like this: I HAVE TO STOP SNOOPING - it's killing my life.

    Snooping leads to stealing, stealing leads to jail, jail doens't get me an education, no education or GED means no job, no job means I can't support myself, not supporting myself means I'm a bum on the street and (gets choked up) Momma I don't want to be a bum on the street - I really do try, it just seems so impossible for me. I wish more than anything I wasn't angry all the time. But I'm going to start NOW with not snooping -

    I just felt so sorry for him and I rarely do that.
  18. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    That child that shared with you, that is the difficult child that i envision your son to be. He wants to belong. He wants to be proud of himself. He wants to love and be loved. He wants to be stable and not floating like a feather from one place to another.

    That child is much like my difficult child. He doesn't process things the way that most people process. He has a history that includes abuse and more importantly instability. He is not embraced by peers with respect. It is
    blankin' sad.

    I do not have "the" answer, Star. I have had a very similar conversation
    with difficult child however and this is what I told him...and what we have done.
    I told difficult child that some people "have to take medication to get their body to
    function normally", so medication was not up for discussion again. I made a committment that we would find THE best medications possible. We did. I told difficult child that each of us have to identify our weaknesses and then
    find a way that works for us. His anger issues are addressed by kicking
    and boxing in the backyard with a homemade bag. His anger issues are
    helped by walking/running. His anger isssues are helped by using a word processor and writing out all his negative feelings and fears which he does NOT have to share but IS allowed to share with me. His anger
    issues are addressed by seeing a counselor "even if the counselor seems
    like an idiot" because someone outside of the family has to hear what you feel and help you sort through it.

    My difficult child loves me and trusts that I have his best interests at heart. He knows that he MUST work with us to help him OR he can go live with his
    Mom and find his own way in life. He is 17 and he stresses the heck out of me at least a few times a week BUT it is no longer daily. Truthfully he makes me nervous and sadly he knows that is the best I can do.
    I'm sure you will do the best you can do too. Hugs. DDD
  19. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I just don't know what to say, Star. DDD and Janet are right about wanting to change. Who knows how much difference he could make in his life if he had goals towards a better life? Maybe a lot, maybe not. I can see why he would feel that it was not possible or worth his time and effort. But no one makes a better life for themselves without the desire to change.

    Is that the first time you heard that kind of revelation from him? Do you think that there is anyone you could share it with who would "get it"? That's a real window into his mind, and it's something to say that he can see it and relate it and knows that it's not the right thing to be.
  20. Star*

    Star* call 911


    I'm printing that out and sending it to his psychologist. He's probably the best in the state. He's for sure the best we've ever met in over 13 years. And he "gets" Dude - he's the first one who wasn't snowballed by his honeymoon phase - he is very blunt, with a sincere desire to help.

    I checked with some other places about maybe finding some books regarding teens and anger - I'm going to try to order that book about the psycho next door - but honestly I think I could write my own book about life with my x and scare or sicken a lot of folks.

    At this point in time - I feel like he's reaching out in a serious manner. He's not able to articulate the jumbled mess in his mind very well, so I tried to remember verbatim what he said. Like you read between the lines - there is a window opened (just a crack) and I don't want to do anything to shut it - I don't necessarily want to crawl in the window either - but I think in his own way he's asking what should I do? It's the first time he's ever done something like that - it's probably the most we've ever ever talked non-stop about him. He only gives you slivers - very hard to deal with and then shuts down. So I too feel there is an opportunity in there and want to make the most of it.

    I checked with the caseworker - and they are still trying to find a placement for him that is close. I feel like I've at least won that battle. I know he can't live at home. Sadly I don't think he'll ever live at home again...we knew that when he went to the group home. And while I don't feel sorry for him - he was correct in stating that if you are a kid on the 'edge' and you don't have structure or the people who are supposed to be taking care of you (group home owners) don't do what they tell you they are going to do - you give up. And he says he didn't give up - he kept trying and just couldnt' get the help he was asking for there. I agreed. But I told him that regardless of where he is AT THAT MOMENT - he can choose to continue to try or give up. Cutting him no slacker slack.

    I do feel that had the placement done what they told us ALL they would be doing /helping/assisting Dude with - he'd be in a better place mentally. Even he said their lack of consequences was a joke - come and go as you please - go to school - or not - give me gas money to get you to school - it was all a learning experience - if nothing else - he sees what life is like without structure - which is what they (teens) all beg for. Well he got it and it wasn't so great. No food, no clothes, no education - dead end.

    I'm trying now to find books for teenagers on coping with anger and anger management ideas/tools to just put out there for him. After this revelation about waking up angry and being that way all day every day - it gives a better light into what he's feeling. I just wish he would have opened up like that at the psychiatric's. The written thing may be a door opener.

    Thanks everyone for taking a read - or replying. Your words whether they agree with or not are appreciated - and so supportive - thanks again.