Help please! I need to ask if I was a bad mother. Feel like one.

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by MidwestMom, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I just got off the phone with 35. I hung up on him. Normally he is the one who hangs up. I am feeling very guilty right now though. I need to know if I did the wrong thing.

    My son had a deposition today and I knew it. He was terrified to go through it. I knew he would be wanting my phone support this last weekend and I didn't want to have to listen to him talk about it, along with the normal swearing at me which I felt would be amped up because he was so stressed out.

    Saturday he called me, but I was at Jumper's volleyball tournament in another town in the sticks and my phone wasn't working that well. And I honestly didn't even think about him as he is so abusive and this was Jumper's day to shine. I got home about four and could have called, but I didn't. I had my phone on silent so if he called me, I didn't hear it. Then I relaxed that evening and went to sleep early. Yes, yes, I didn't call him. I didn't want to hear it. I figured I didn't really want to hear about it until it was over. So Sunday came.

    35 had taken his son out at midnight to pick up some new Skylander's game. They did this last year. I guess it's a major fun thing for them to do. I told myself that 35 would be ok because he had this planned with his son. I figured they'd be playing games all day. But I didn't check the phone. 35 called me twenty or more times. I was protecting myself so I did not call him back nor did I even look at my phone. I found out he had called me twenty times because he told me that tonight.

    All day today I knew the depo was going on and waited for him to call, but he didn't. It surprised me, but I don't know squat about depositions and I told myself that maybe it went on all day long. Look, I KNEW this would be super stressful, but for selfish reasons I detached from my son for this episode in his life. I have been so stressed out by the entire hoopla that I didn't feel capable of hearing about it until after it was over (and even then I was not looking forward to it as 35 is the biggest pessimist on the face of the earth.)

    I will paraphrase what 35 said to me when I finally called him at 8pm. This was after I called my ex to make sure he had gotten out of the deposition and was not slashing his wrists. But he never tells much to ex. So I called and he answered the phone. Here is what he said, not verbatim.

    "So you finally called. You didn't call Saturday and didn't pick up the phone the twenty times I called you yesterday. You knew this was going to be terrible for me, but you just wanted to hear the outcome. You didn't want to go through it with me and give me support. I am an afterthought. You were not there for your son. I called you at least twenty times and you never answered the phone. Think about it. Your son needed you and you didn't care. Well, I'm not going to tell you what happened. I don't need that kind of support. It's not support! You just wanted to avoid me all weekend then know the results! F****'re a horrible parent..." At this point, I said, "Fine. You don't have to tell me about it." And I hung up.

    Now I feel guilty. He's right. I didn't want to go t hrough it with him. I have been living his divorce and custody battle since Day One after he hadn't called me much during his ten year marriage. But I also feel like it is a slap in the face that after all the hours I have sat on the phone listening to him talk about this trial while abusing me in between he wouldn't even tell me the outcome of the deposition because I didn't sit on the phone with him last weekend. Does he have a point or am I just getting sucked into his crazy thinking again??

    Please be honest. I have no idea if/when he will call again and I don't even know how I feel about that. I am so worn out from the abuse he heaps on me when he talks about this stuff that I don't even know if I care. But I do wonder if, at that point in his life, I should have been there. Should I call and apologize? He will probably just hang up, but at least I tried. Honestly, he was sort of right. I didn't want to hear about it. I wanted a break from it. If the truth is known, I only listened for hours on the phone and put up with the abuse because of my love for 35. I do not know my grandson enough to love him.

    What would YOU have done? Was I wrong? Am I bad now for not feeling worse because my son may take a long time to contact me again?

    The only thing he said that really blew my mind was that he considered himself an afterthought when I have been angsting over his chit for as long as the trial has been in the works. If anything, Jumper has complained that I'm always on the phone with 35. He was far from an afterthought.

    I don't know. I did detach. Did I detach too far? I'm beginning to think that, considering all the times he told me, "You aren't helpful. If I had anyone else I wouldn't use you for support." With all the swearing and hanging up, perhaps this is the inevitable ending and maybe it's for the better for ME at least because it was creeping into my life and I had to spend more and more time de-stressing and trying to redirect my thinking.

    But as I type it, I feel I sound so selfish and awful. I want honest opinions, please.
  2. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    My first thought after reading your post MWM is this, let it go...........let it all go.........I have been in that kind of a dramatic exchange and it is easy to get sucked in to it, but........ it is enough. You've been doing this and listening to this abuse vomited at you for a long time now.

    This is not a normal exchange where one person speaks and then the other listens and then it reverses........this is him using you as the toxic waste dump. There is not enough time in your life left to give him what he thinks he is useless to try to fill him up, you will likely always meet this same end. It's inevitable, you cannot ever give him what he needs. He is a bottomless pit and trying to fill that up will exhaust and deplete you.

    I think these are the last vestiges of parental guilt from your own parental expectations you can't possibly meet with this son. It takes time to run through all of those. I know, I've gone through a similar process. I still wonder at times, but not enough to re-engage.

    You made choices to take care of YOU this weekend. I think that may feel weird right now, but you did the right thing for YOU. Stay the course.
  3. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I was so hoping you, of all posters would answer me. Thank you so very much. You are so right. That was not a normal exchange. With him, they never are. I do need to let this go.

    His birthday is Nov. 1st. I was going to send $100 early because I know he is short of money now due to all this going on, but $100 is a lot of me too. I am going to send an early card and scroll "I love you" on the bottom and send $50, which is also a lot for us. If I send it early, it is done. I don't expect a response or even necessarily want one, but I don't want to drop to his level and ignore his birthday. Although he ignores all of ours...lolol.

    That will be my only communication with him. I am so sad that I gave birth to this beautiful baby who turned into the grown child from hello, but it is what it is. If I am guilty of anything, I did not mean to be. I gave my all to him and I don't deserve his treatment of me and you're right...I can spend 24/7 on the phone listening to and even acknowledging that his abuse is warranted and it would not be enough.

    I will go to Al-Anon Thursday morning. I have no idea how much his drinking is affecting his behavior, but I need to listen to the Twelve Steps, tap into my Higher Power, and listen to wise woman talking about detachment.

    RE, you are such a kind soul. Thanks again. I actually feel better reading your logical and compassionate words. Bless you.
  4. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    You are very kind MWM, thank you. I am really glad you feel better.

    I negotiate this territory a lot too, a step forward, a step or two back...........I've learned to trust my instincts a little more rather then my guilt or what I think I SHOULD do. This can be so hard, but I have more and more moments of joy which I believe you have as well. Your life sounds rich, filled with love and are blessed. I focus on those things as much as I can and every once in awhile, I get caught in an old rut too..........and someone helps to pull me out...............thankfully we can help pull each other out.........(maybe someday we just won't fall in anymore!)

    *Sweet dreams MWM...........
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    RE, you have such a kind heart and you are right. My life is pretty good and I do have a lot to be thankful for. It is time to give my full time attention to those I love who love me as much and I don't believe this will have a long term affect on me as it was bound to come to this. And perhaps it is for the best.

    I hope you have the sweetest dreams too. You are a Godsend to this forum and if you were before me, I'd give you a big hug :) Thank you again.
  6. Signorina

    Signorina Guest

    MM-- I know this is a trite cliche...

    but you have to put on your own oxygen mask first...

    He is unbalanced and completely irrational.

    You are allowed to have boundaries and I admire you for drawing some.

    If you didn't care - you wouldn't have followed up with your ex and then called your son.

    Proof of such?

    Rational responses in his favor in my opinion:
    OK for an adult child to be disappointed that they can't get in touch with a parent during a time of need. (So let's give him that)
    OK to be peeved when someone is obviously avoiding calls. (let's give him that too, just to be fair)
    OK to take a firm stance and tell them that and spell out one's needs to one's parent. (we can even give him 1/2 a credit on that)
    OK to be slightly irrational when hurt over something really important to one's self (again, let's give him that too)

    So you finally called. You didn't call Saturday and didn't pick up the phone the twenty times I called you yesterday. You knew this was going to be terrible for me, but you just wanted to hear the outcome. You didn't want to go through it with me and give me support. I am an afterthought. You were not there for your son. I called you at least twenty times and you never answered the phone. Think about it. Your son needed you and you didn't care. Well, I'm not going to tell you what happened. I don't need that kind of support. It's not support! You just wanted to avoid me all weekend then know the results! F****'re a horrible parent.

    And the ott icing on the cake? The statement in green. He is "punishing" you by not telling you what happened? Utterly beyond rational and completely childlike. You didn't wait weeks to call, you waited a day. And you called because you care. He is being punitive by withholding information? Really? Enough said.

    Actions have consequences. He has been rude and uncaring and quite horrible to you and completely unapologetic about it. Are small instances of ill behavior excusable in light of the stress he is under? Sure. But these are not small instances and he has NEVER been apologetic or appreciative towards you. He has treated you like poop, hurt you and demeaned you and you have set boundaries in response to his behavior. You haven't stopped loving him, but you are no longer making yourself his doormat. That is perfectly OK and exactly what you should do.

    We had a mantra on the SA board - "don't dial pain" - I think it was advice given to a poster (not me) by her support group or therapist. It rang true to all of us, we repeated it often to each other. And now I write it to you. "Don't dial pain." You know who he is and where he is and how he speaks to you. Stay in touch - a birthday card and gift is fine. Send a "thinking of you" text once in a blue moon...but don't call him thinking you will get the closure or the response you need or deserve. He is not able or willing to be a son at this point. Maybe he will be someday - but in the meanwhile - don't set yourself up for pain.

    Hope tomorrow is better.

  7. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Sig, you are another angel and your words are so true.

    In my heart, I know he will never be able to be a real son, in the normal sense. He has always been this way. And you are right. When he would swear at me, blame me, and abuse me, he would sometimes text "You owe me an apology." Huh???? And never once has he apologized to me by saying, "I am just so stressed. I am sorry I lost control." Not even that, which is an apology I would have accepted. In his mind, I am wrong, he is never wrong. His thinking is distorted and irrational and there is nothing I can do about it. To be honest, I'm not sure I want to know the outcome of the depo anyway, but i called him because I knew he'd probably be upset. He does not do well under pressure and when he has to seem likeable. It hurts me to hear when he does badly so it was unknowingly kind of him to spare me the details.

    I thank you also. This was a very hard little stretch for me and I appreciate you for your common sense and kind response. This board is truly filled with loving people and you are one of them. Thanks from the bottom of my heart.
  8. SuZir

    SuZir Well-Known Member

    He is using you as a rubbish bin. Hurtful for you, not helping him in long term. Him cussing and venting to you only gets him aggravated more. Yes, it is something he wants, but it isn't really helpful for him either. You not accepting that is not making you a bad mother.

    Neither is listening him to vent really a support, when that is only type of 'support' he is looking for. He says he doesn't has chances to get support he needs, but that is not likely true. If he wanted to be proactive, he would most likely find the ways to get real support and help to work out his issues. But he doesn't seem willing to do so, because that is hard and unpleasant route and you have to work hard and be willing to make changes on yourself, not just vent about the 'errors of this world.'

    Everyone needs to vent at times, but just venting and venting and venting makes one negative and angry and doesn't help anything. Maybe you refusing to be his rubbish bin and listening his venting does not change anything. Maybe he just sulks how even his mother has forsaken him and doesn't take it a wake up call to actually look for help and support he needs. But that is not something you can do anything about.

    Don't feel guilty for not listening him vent and refusing to be his rubbish bin. When you allow that, it doesn't really help him much and it hurts you. So not much benefit to anyone really.
  9. accmama

    accmama Guest

    No, you are not a bad mom. It sounds to me like you just took some time off to focus on normal life and that is good.
  10. AnnieO

    AnnieO Shooting from the Hip

    From what I know of the situation, and what I am seeing here... Nope. You're a GOOD mother. Because honestly? You don't need that koi. You are there for Pastry Chef, Sonic, and Jumper - and they don't abuse you like this!!! :hugs:
  11. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

    MWM, have you read Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse and the verbally abusive relationship?

    If you haven't, the gist of the thing is that the abuser feels relief of his own pain BECAUSE he's hurt you. Somewhere in their psyches, those who verbally abuse displace negative imagery of themselves through destroying the partner's sense of worth. This gives the abusive partner a sense of power-over. At its heart, a verbally abusive relationship is about control.

    Verbally abusive relationships are relationships in the fullest sense of the term. As surely as a physically abusive person is going to escalate his behavior when his victim moves to escape the relationship, your son has escalated his verbally abusive behavior toward you to retrap you into a relationship you are becoming healthy enough to want to place limits on. Hurting you, tearing you down into nothing, is how he does that.

    He can only do it because you love him.

    He knows that, but does it anyway.

    Part of the reason the verbally abused partner stays in the relationship is to REPAIR THE DAMAGE THE ABUSER HAS CONVINCED HER IS HER FAULT. The verbally abused partner stays in the relationship too because, as the toxicity of the relationship deepens, she comes to question her interpretation of reality ~ because her abuser is so certain. Repeating the most horrible things he can think of so many times that it becomes the truth for both people in the verbally abusive relationship, the verbally abusive person gains control of his victim's psyche.

    MWM, I've read enough of your clear, straightforward, honest, compassionate posts to feel that I know who you are in your heart. This son you love has problems. One of them is that, for reasons we will never know, he takes satisfaction in hurting you. You have wisely decided to stay away physically from this child. As you heal, as your own self-concept has become stronger, you have taken small, simple actions to stay balanced yourself while still being available as a strong, loving support for 35. But here is the key about verbally abusive relationships, MWM: 35 does not want you balanced. 35, because there is something not right with how he thinks, WANTS AND NEEDS YOU TO BEELIEVE THAT YOU ARE LESS THAN. He is enraged right now because you are thwarting him. For 35 to feel safe, MWM, you are not allowed to rebel in any way because, if you should ever realize the dynamic behind what 35 is doing, it will no longer work.

    And 35 will do everything in his power to prevent that.

    Verbally abusive relationship is a dangerous, twisted reflection of what love is, MWM. Once you understand how it works, you will see through 35. He will still be able to reach in and change your internal reality, but you will have the tools you need to understand that 35 is wrong. Right now, you cannot see that.

    35 is wrong, MWM.

    You are one of the most compassionate, responsible women on this Board. I have been grateful for, and enlightened by, your input, more times than I can tell you.

    Loving a troubled child is dangerous. We are so vulnerable to them. We so desperately want them to be alright. We want to explain the pain away ~ but part of the illness our children are coping with is that need to hurt and destroy the things they love.

    We need to acknowledge that.

    And we need to practice excellent self-care, especially when our troubled kids have made us feel we don't deserve to cherish ourselves.

    This is something Recovery posted to me once, MWM. I am still coming to understand the intricacies in what she said. I was posting away about how horrified I was at the details of what was happening to difficult child. Recovering posted something to the effect that difficult child should not be sharing these details KNOWING I LITERALLY COULD NOT MAINTAIN once I knew.

    Recovering told me, in her kind way, that my daughter was doing that on purpose.

    Over the months, I have concluded Recovering was right. It isn't that my difficult child hates me so much that she wants to hurt me by describing in minute detail every incidence of abuse.

    And yet, it is.

    She can't really help it any more than 35 can, MWM.

    That's what I mean, about having to be very careful when interacting with our troubled kids. They are scary-bright; they are devious in ways we don't understand because their motivations and reward systems are alien to us.

    But, because they are ill, there is something in them that feels validated when those who love them are hurt. I can never figure out whether difficult child is punishing me or herself.

    But I think it might be both.

    Or maybe, she feel safer somehow, knowing that I know.

    I am so sorry 35 hurt you this way. It is impossible to believe in ourselves while someone we love, someone we trust to love us back, is tearing us apart. If you haven't read them, please read those books, MWM. From the way you talk about your kids (35 included) I believe you were, and are, a wonderful, caring mom.

  12. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Beautifully said Cedar............. and I'm sure your words will be far reaching to many on this board along with MWM and myself. That could be looked at as 'toxic love' is is something that was very hard for me to recognize in my daughter, my parents, my sister and some friends. It forces us to remove ourselves for self protection against the very people we love the most. As you once said Cedar, it is a personal devastation unlike any other. My heart goes out to all of us who've experienced this..........
  13. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Suz and Annie O. thank you so much for t he support. I am doing better. I mean...let's take a poll. How many of your difficult children have threatened to assassinate you? None, except 35? I thought so. NOBODY talks that way. It's SICK SICK SICK!

    This kind of talk, which has been more than once, has pretty much made me afraid of him. I am also afraid of how he will treat his son, my grandson, if he does get 50/50 custody and his son suddenly is not so loving and compliant toward him. God help me, will he lose it on Grandson???? I still wonder, if he loses this, if he will actually go after his ex. Of course, I think the odds are very low, but there is something chilling about hearing, in a calm voice, "If you dare to contact ex, I will come up there and kill you." (Gulp).

    I lost Scott long ago, but that was more sudden and did not include threats and was largely because Scott has attachment issues from his six years in a Hong Kong orphanage. I do not worry he will hurt anybody. I am glad his life is fruitful and good for him and that he found a compatible mate. I am now choosing to "no contact" Mark because, as Recovering Enabler said, no matter how I try to talk to him, we never have normal, calm, give-and-take conversations. It is more him talking in a monologue in anger or his yelling, swearing and threatening me. I have to admit we have never had a real relationship.

    My husband remembers when he first moved in with us and 35 got abusive toward me and my husband pinned him against the wall and I interceded and told my husband to just let it go and walk away. I recall when 35 had to leave our house for threatening me, calling me names, and doing stuff to Julie that made her terrified of him. When we finally got a look at his tornado-like bedroom; the one he had bought a super-lock for and that nobody could get into, we were shocked at not only the mess, but what we found. We found tons of filled urine cans in his room because he was too lazy to go to the bathroom which was next door to his room. Um, not normal for an eighteen year old, no? We found that on his computer, 80% of his go-to places were sick porn (not normal porn). We found his cat almost feral and scratching us. Poor thing. We never did socialize him. He was too far gone and jumped on everyone, scratching them madly. Literally, we had to gut his entire room, carpeting included, furniture included, because it stunk. His room alone said, "I am not normal."

    We had ten peaceful years from him because he was married, but he is back to Square One. His then wife and himself lived in ex's condo with ex for a while and he was sometimes abusive to ex, pushing him and swearing at him. This is how he has always been. God only knows how he treated his ex. I've often said she is borderline. She is. Two sickos found each other. But she did not deserve to be pushed or sworn at, if that is what he did to her.

    As much as I hate to say this, it is not possible to have a civil relationship with 35 over the long term. So I have my dear husband and my three precious children...Julie, Sonic and Jumper. Not bad. I have my fuzzy doggies. I hope 35 doesn't call me and that I no longer have to feel I need to be a part of his lawsuit.

    Whatever his problem is, it's big. And I can't handle it anymore.

    Time to detach PLUS and concentrate on Jumper's volleyball game tonight. It's an important one and I always have fun at her games. It is simply time to move on and thank God for my blessings. Thursday I will go to Al-Anon (first meeting we have here) to get some real time support.
  14. Scott_G

    Scott_G Member

    My opinion on this may be a bit extreme, but here goes... When I was in college I got arrested and spent a night in jail. I hadn't lived with my parents for two years when it happened. I handled the situation like a MAN. Luckily my roommate at the time was an intern at a law firm. I asked him to talk to one of the lawyers at work and see if I could get representation for a fair price because I was a broke college student. The attorney agreed to represent me for $150, payable in installments. I paid him with my own money from my part time job. I NEVER asked my parents for help or even told them what happened. Why should I? What good would it do for anyone? I am an adult and I created my problems, and I am responsible for dealing with them. I thought then, as I do now, that being needy and making your parents an emotional dumping ground when you are an adult is both selfish and immature. My parents have their own lives, and I am a big boy. My problems are my problems, and I don't need them as a cheering section in every thing I go through in life. A grown man who is really a grown man and not a little boy in a mans body should not need to unload his emotional baggage on his mommy on a daily basis or need constant parental support. Before our son went no contact, it was daily drama. He called or stopped by regularly and constantly whined about hpw miserable he was and about all the problems in his life. All it served to do was get his mother upset, which in turn got me angry. He needs to be a MAN ad deal with his own problems, problems he created.
  15. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Scent and Recovering, thanks again.

    I will buy the book. You are right (both of you). He has a need to control me by intimidating and belittling me. Why he has this need doesn't matter, although I suspect it is so that I will do exactly what he wants. Or say exactly what he wants. And that is impossible. He is like the husband abuser who insists his wife have an absolutely spotless house and freaks out if he dares to find one little piece of dust on a desk and uses it as a reason to abuse.

    The more I read the more I realize that kids who are this awful to us are WANTING to take control over us and, if we let them, they will destroy us. I read in one article that some grown kids find it funny!! Huh? 35 is mean to everyone though.

    I am so grateful for this group on PE in particular. All I can say is...thank you, thank you, thank you!!! (((Hugs)))
  16. witzend

    witzend Well-Known Member

    I don't think you need to feel guilty at all. (Said the woman with a huge guilt complex. They invented Catholicism for people just like me.)

    I don't think that you would have been able to support him in any meaningful way whether you spoke to him or not. If you'd said what needed to be said, he'd have hung up on you. How does that help? If you'd just let him dump on you (which I have been doing shamelessly to anyone who crossed my path for a few weeks) it probably not only won't make him feel better, it will make him feel worse for treating you so poorly. At least that's how I've been feeling about my behavior of late.

    Was not answering the best way to handle it? Well, probably not. Anything that you weren't there to see or hear should not be something that is considered because it is truly as if it didn't happen. But you have to protect yourself, too. I can hardly budge out of the house or eat at this point in my life. Anyone silly enough to cross me is lucky I don't carry a weapon. (Poor husband. But that's another story...) It might have been better if you had Passive/Aggressively sent him a text when you knew he was in the Depo and said "Sorry I missed your calls, my phone was out in the car and I didn't hear them. I wondered what had happened. I love you and hope it goes well." Then again, hindsight is 20/20. And he is 35 years old. He's beating you up plenty over this. Don't pile it on yourself, we all get to start fresh each day. Whether or not we take that opportunity is on each of us every day.
  17. scent of cedar

    scent of cedar New Member

  18. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I will listen. I have already ordered the book.
  19. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I haven't been around for a few days. I am sorry I wasn't here to give support to you. I know, deep down in my bones, that you will NOT spew abuse at me for being gone while you went through this. You will be glad I came back and appreciative of the support that I give when I am available to be here.

    in my opinion that is pretty darn similar to what your 35 could have done, and the fact that his response was to spew childish stupid toxic waste on you is simply not normal or acceptable. Your reaction to me is likely a touch of confusion that I might think you could react by spewing abuse on me, largely because that is far from normal or rational behavior. YOUR response to me is what your son should have given you.

    Can you see how far from normal his responses and behaviors are?

    You were NEVER a bad mother. We all have times we don't do our best at something, but that is a far cry from being a bad person or parent. 35 isn't just an awful son, he is a bad parent. I have wanted to say some things for a while, but didn't think you were ready or clear minded enough on the issue to hear them.

    I know you didn't like daughter in law. I do wonder how much of what you know about her was filtered through the lens of 35. A very large part of me PRAYS the judge does NOT give 35 any sort of custody or unsupervised access to his son. That is right, I think his access should be SUPERVISED by a social worker. He is in zero shape to be a halfway decent parent. I am AFRAID for your grandson. I think 35 is the type who is very black and white in his thinking and he would do something to harm grandson if the court doesn't give him everything he wants. He clearly needs years of therapy and even that likely will not be enough to make him safe to be around kids. I am afraid that in a few years when grandson is more of his own person and wants w hat he wants rather than what daddy wants, that your son will be incredibly abusive to him. I have seen parents hwo act the way 35 acts and it is always abusive when the child becomes his or her own person rather than daddy/mommy's little lovebug who does what is desired only.

    35 is NOT healthy, is NOT sane, and is NOT safe to be alone with any child. Esp not a child who has to gingerly step between the minefields placed by two people who want different things for and from their child. I don't know if daughter in law is any better, but I don't think you do either. I think that 35 was done with you because you made him leave and you didn't give him what he wanted. Now that what he wanted is not available, he wants a whipping boy and source of pity and sympathy and indulgence. When you won't do that, he gets scary. I don't think his word on what daughter in law is like is trustworthy. You know 35 is not rational, so nothing that he says is reliable, esp when talking about the woman who chose not to put up with his abuse anymore. Imagine what he told daughter in law about you. Do you think that it resembled reality? Do you honestly think that daughter in law has ANY clue what you are truly like? She likely spent years hearing about how mean and abusive you were to him, and thinking that her child would not be safe or loved if you were to spend time with him. We know that is not true, but she doesn't because she only knows what she was told about you. and you only know what you were told about him.

    Your son is sick, unbalanced and likely will never agree to get help because in his head he is not a problem. Everyone else is, and soon your grandson will also be hte problem because grandson didn't say/do what was needed for the courts to say grandson could live only with 35.

    in my opinion you need to sever this contact iwth 35. I know it will be hard, but it is NOT safe. Do not go visit him. It is far from safe. If you get anxiety attacks around his calls, being subjected to him in person will be far worse. That anxiety is there for a reason. It tells you that it is not safe to be around him. It is right.

    You are an amazing mother, wife and person. You love completely and do all you can to help those you care about. None of those things makes you responsible for how 35 is. HE is responsible, and HE is sick. You have 3 kids who are incredible and wonderful. That is largely because of YOU. You were a great mom to 35, but he is what he has CHOSEN to be. ANd that is NOT your fault.

    Please let him go. You were out of touch for a couple of days, not months. He should have been able to cope by relying on his entire support system, but he has chosen to drive anyone who would support him away. he is not the center of anyone's universe because none of us are, and he needs to grow up and stop blaming everyone else.
  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Susie, it is always so welcoming to "see" you. A few people make me feel warm and fuzzy although I never met any of you, RE, Cedar and a few others always make me feel comforted. I need to thank you first about an unrelated topic. YOUR COMMENTS ALONE made me get over quickly the mess at the volunteer's place. I told my therapist t hat somebody I know on a message forum set me straight by pointing out that if I hang around with dysfunctional, issued people, I am likely to have a bad experience. Your post affected me in such a positive way that I not only instantly felt better, but I am looking out for a crew of dysfunctional people every time I try a new activity All my life I've sought after these dysfunctional people and I wonder why I have social problems...hmmmmph! It is partly me and my social guffaws, but you know what? They are not so terrible (the guffaws) that well balanced people would hold them against me or, worse, yell at me for them. Most likely a balanced person would smile and move on with life. And now I make absolutely sure that when I decide to take a chance on an activity, no matter what it is, nobody tells me about their jail time, their drug abuse, their drinking habits, etc. or I will find a better place to work, volunteer, or whatever I'm doing. I just want "normal" people around me. It has worked out beautifully so far. And I owe this insight, that I should have had but did not, to you. So thank you sooooooooo much for that. I value your judgment very much.

    Susie, I have to agree with you about 35. As much as I hate to admit it to myself, his ex probably had ample reason to leave him and there is likely a lot of stuff I don't know. Yes, she is not that stable, but I don't believe she has ever threatened to assassinate anybody and she is probably the better choice in the long run. There! I said it! I, too, am afraid of how 35 will react to his son once he is not so young and cute and when he becomes his own person and defies him. You spoke my deepest fear and it's ok for you to bring that out in the open. I believe he has molested my precious pastrychef daughter and that gives me the chills, but she won't go into detail or press charges and just never wants to see him again!!! So supervised visits sounds the safest to me too. Sadly. And with a mother's heavy heart, I agree. Of course he denies ever forcing his sister to watch pornography and anything else he may have done, but, in my heart, I know he did do it and have sided with my daughter since she told me all she was willing to tell. Every time I speak to him, in the back of my mind, THAT issue is always there. I believe my daughter. She knows I believe her. If I had to choose, I'd choose her. Ok, new topic since that one is very painful for me.

    My angst over 35 is NOT because I think he's fit, but because he is my son and I hate to feel his pain, even though he has no problem seeing mine. Or anyone's but his and, so far, his son's. I am slowly, with much help from Al-Anon, my self-help books on mindfulness, AND THIS BOARD (hoooooraaaaaaaaaaaaay) starting to get past that. I can not stop his pain. If he changed his behavior by working as hard as I did on his issues he would be a nicer person and would be able to perhaps control himself and thus have a better outcome in stuff like this custody battle. In no way am I grieving over my grandson. I don't know my grandson. My son went along with his ex and decided that grandson would spend very little time with us and instead only see ex's side of the family when we came in for holidays. So I don't really know my grandson and he doesn't know me. I'm not a big fan of DNA anyway. I hope my daughter, who lives in Chicago, has a chld soon. She is trying. Now THAT will be a grandchild I can get my hands on :). Husband and I also want to do foster care of a young 'un next year and will likely get very attached, even though the child will move on eventually. I'm going to have my foster kids call me Grandma. So there!!! :)

    It seems I won't have much to do even phonewise with 35 for now as he thinks I don't help him and "make things worse by being pessimistic." I have already cut our serious ties. I am not going to Missouri and he will never drive up to Wisconsin as he is totally phobic about driving out of his immediate area. Example: He loves and misses Chicago, where he came from, but is afraid to drive up there. His ex used to do the driving when they went to Chicago. Well, he has NOBODY to drive him now. He's already told me that my part of Wisconsin depresses him and looks shabby to him. Whatever. I'm glad, although it isn't shabby here. Just some of the houses are older, but well kept up (shrug).

    Susie, I take anything you say to heart. It is great to be on a forum where I actually get good help from the posters. I so appreciate the time you took to write to me and I hear every word of your post. Certainly 35 will either grow up or go down to a very bad place, if he isn't there already. But I can't make him grow up and I refuse to take the blame for that. Honestly, it's sad when a 35 year old man needs a non-stop mommy. I mean, we ALL like to have our moms around, if they were good to us, when times are hard. But we are nice to them when we see them and it passes and we long to be adults again. Not 35.

    So be it!! I have a very important date tonight with a volleyball game :) Jumper is playing the finals for her team in her senior year and husband and I will be cheering loudly in the stands and I won't even have my phone with me. I plan on having a fabulous time cheering on one of my functional, loving children.

    You have a great night too, Susie :) You are truly a star! :)