Is it ever ok to just be "done?"

[TheWalrus]

I have researched a lot about Borderline (BPD) and saw my own therapist. in my opinion, she had "traits" as a teen. I don't know if it can be inherited, but I would swear her bio dad has it. I always just thought he was an addict, but our entire marriage was unstable friendships, jobs, unexplained rage and anger, emotional blackmail...I thought it was his addiction and left when I couldn't stand it and he wouldn't change.

She has an addictive personality and is addicted to meth, pot, pills, huffing...you name it. I think it is the drug use that brought it full blown although she says she has always felt "divided."

She is brilliant. She knows what it is and in no way denies she has it. She has researched it endlessly. However, she does not want or "need" therapy - for Borderline (BPD) or addiction. With a diagnosis, she now throws it up as an "excuse" for her behavior and an expectation that everyone just tolerate it bc she can't "help" it. But when confronted with her need for help, she truly thinks she doesn't need help and that she is smarter than any therapist she has spoken to. (After research, I personally think she is also narcissistic.)

I know from my own research and my own therapy that while this is her personality, she does know right from wrong. I agree that consequences won't change her - she has zero fear of negative consequences. To give you an example, she was with a boyfriend who she was head over heels for just a few months ago - she would not shut up about him. Total idealization, Mr. Perfect, blah blah. She got him to take her in and then she completely devalued and degraded him and he left her. She flicked it off like nothing and has already moved onto her next "big love." She does the same thing with friendships, family...but she does not think she is the one who needs to change. She walks away from everyone with a big "F" you and no looking back.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Well, drug addiction itself often presents as personality disorders. That's why you see so many people swearing that their addict child is a sociopath. Most of us are not. For most of us addicts, we display those traits only in active use.

But, it is possible for an addict to have an actual personality disorder. In which case, the problem doesn't go away with sobriety. That is very unfortunate, but it seems like she has accepted it, and has no intention of treating it in any way. That is unfortunate, but it does show that the problem is HER, not you.

 

[Albatross]

So many good posts here.

I think that in this craziness of parenting difficult children, many of us crave certainty. I know I sure do. That idea of just being "done," of just washing our hands, our hearts, and our minds from it all forever is very seductive.

Is it ok to be done? I say of course it is. I also think that sometimes people change...even the most unlikely ones...so it doesn't have to be forever...but it might be.

If we were talking about a child, or a person whose emotional responses are beyond their control, that's different. But that is not the case for you, Walrus. Or for most of us here. These are adults who of their own free will have chosen to manipulate our love for them. Of course it's ok to be done with that.

But I also think that those of us who post here aren't really "done." If we were, we would have no need to post. We post so we can learn to live with walking that line between wanting to be "done" and not wanting that at all.

 

[BusynMember]

The question then is, was she slways this divided and difficult. If she was ,well, borderlines self destruct. They cut. They break the law . They use people. They like drugs.

They see everything in black and white. There is no gray in their world. You are all bad or all good and it can change day to day, but certain behaviors of not getting along with anyone or extreme moodswings etc, may have started in childhood, way before the drugs. They are beginning to study the behaviors of borderline adults as children.


My daughter lied and manipulated during her drug days (although on her worst drug day, she was never mean). She did not lie or manipulate before drugs and doesnt do it now, after drugs. She does not have a personality disorder, although drug use changed her a lot while she did it. She was moody, slept a lot cried often, argued....she was different on drugs.

They are just now discovering that, yes, borderline runs in families. This is new info. Borderlines, antisocials, narcissistics are part of our genepool, even when adopted. Interesting to study. Easygoing temperments are also often hereditary. It is why when adoptive parents meet their childs bithparents, whom neither ever knew, so many are shocked that they are more like bio.family than adoptive family.

 

[Nature]

Hi Walrus,

All wonderful post regarding your question and here's my take on it. You come across as a very warm and kind hearted person and have sadly been subjected to abuse from an adult child. It is okay to say, "I'm done". I've said those words previously regarding my son. It is extremely difficult but it was more so being subjected to being the target of his rages, abusive behaviour, lack of respect and then eventually physical abuse. It is true that what we allow our Difficult Child to say to us we would not tolerate from strangers or friends. Allowing it to continue leaves us with battered souls and our self esteem suffers as a result. You are right in your choice and doing so does not make you a bad mom but rather a healthy parent. Hugs from me Walrus.

 

[so ready to live]

Hi Walrus.

I think that in this craziness of parenting difficult children, many of us crave certainty. I know I sure do. That idea of just being "done," of just washing our hands, our hearts, and our minds from it all forever is very seductive.

Yes, I feel this is the crux of it-just didn't want to live like this, don't want to live like this, can't stand the thought of living like this in the future...
So much said here, food for thought, I do really want to thank you for giving us this heartfelt discussion. Sorting through it here helps me to clear the fog. I think the dirty little secret is me. I want, I want, I want...today I will seek peace regardless of others. But, in my heart...I want it to be different.

 

[TheWalrus]

SWOT -

She started her difficulty early but not to this extreme. We just thought it was normal teen rebellion bc she was also so accomplished at school, kept the same group of friends, worked the same job, was reliable, etc. even if she snuck out, was places she shouldn't be. She wasn't a cutter and she didn't use drugs. She drank a few times and smoked. Every bit of that person and those capabilities are gone. She cannot maintain anything with consistency. But now I wonder if she was only able to do it then bc we were so consistent and routine in our house. On her own, she can't set the boundaries and expectations that we did.

No, it has nothing to do with when she is using. She was in a rehab for months, completely detoxed, and was at times the most hateful I have ever seen her. She is very black and white - I am either the best mother in the world (rare) or the worst (most often). She is this way with everyone. She lies, steals, manipulates, cuts, uses drugs and people, rages and explodes over any perceived slight - and there is no predictability to her moods or reactions bc they shift so quickly. It is like being in a room with someone who keeps flicking the light switch.

When she is using, she is the same only with crazy, paranoid, make no sense accusations thrown in on top of everything else. She can be frightening when she is using - I have been afraid she would attack me when she was high bc her rages would escalate to such a frenzied level. I had to lock her out of the house that time bc I was so afraid of what she was capable of.

Part of me feels I am in the wrong bc she has a diagnosed personality disorder - how can I just walk away? She has a mental illness! But another part of me recognizes that her illness is treatable and she refuses that, and in doing so, she not only destroys herself but anyone else who is close to her. I feel I should have the right to save myself if I can't save her. Ironically, her "divided" personality creates a division in my emotions regarding her.

 

[AppleCori]

Yes, Wal, it is OK to be just done.

It is also OK to change your stance at a later date, if you want to.

Do what you need to do right now.

You can revisit it later.

Apple

 

[BusynMember]

Walrus,ill tell you why its in my opinion ok.

Even those with mental health issues can get better if they try. If we put up with the behavior, what is their incentive to try? To get the therapy they need that can be life changing for her? Maybe nothing will help, but at least you put your foot down and say NO MORE. At least you are in control of your life and refuse abuse. There is no excuse for abuse. Your daughter can get help so she can stop doing it or it is not much different from an abusive man who abuses his wife over and over again.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting anything to change.
Sending vibes of strength and peace and the wisdom to decide what is the right thing for you to do.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

SWOT -

She started her difficulty early but not to this extreme. We just thought it was normal teen rebellion bc she was also so accomplished at school, kept the same group of friends, worked the same job, was reliable, etc. even if she snuck out, was places she shouldn't be. She wasn't a cutter and she didn't use drugs. She drank a few times and smoked. Every bit of that person and those capabilities are gone. She cannot maintain anything with consistency. But now I wonder if she was only able to do it then bc we were so consistent and routine in our house. On her own, she can't set the boundaries and expectations that we did.

No, it has nothing to do with when she is using. She was in a rehab for months, completely detoxed, and was at times the most hateful I have ever seen her. She is very black and white - I am either the best mother in the world (rare) or the worst (most often). She is this way with everyone. She lies, steals, manipulates, cuts, uses drugs and people, rages and explodes over any perceived slight - and there is no predictability to her moods or reactions bc they shift so quickly. It is like being in a room with someone who keeps flicking the light switch.

When she is using, she is the same only with crazy, paranoid, make no sense accusations thrown in on top of everything else. She can be frightening when she is using - I have been afraid she would attack me when she was high bc her rages would escalate to such a frenzied level. I had to lock her out of the house that time bc I was so afraid of what she was capable of.

Part of me feels I am in the wrong bc she has a diagnosed personality disorder - how can I just walk away? She has a mental illness! But another part of me recognizes that her illness is treatable and she refuses that, and in doing so, she not only destroys herself but anyone else who is close to her. I feel I should have the right to save myself if I can't save her. Ironically, her "divided" personality creates a division in my emotions regarding her.

What does she take? She sounds a lot like my twin sister, who is a BIG time tweaker. And everything you have said about your daughter could just as truthfully be said about my sister. She is the most violent, spiteful, petty, hateful person I have ever met when she is using. I have had to literally lay her out on one occasion trying to protect my aunt from her. The cruelty of the things she can say to her loved ones is truly disgusting. I did all the lying, stealing, and manipulating when using, but not ONCE did I have a bad thought for my aunt or my uncle. Not once did I ever talk to them without the respect they deserved. The stealing and lying is about as bad, but I could never bring myself to make it personal with my aunt or uncle.

While sober, she isn't as bad, but that really isn't saying a whole lot. Even my aunt has come to the conclusion that she exhibits almost every trait of a true sociopath. Looking back on the way she was brought up (which, amazingly, was even worse than my childhood), it isn't very surprising. And I talk to her literally the least amount of time possible. While I am not out to get her, I don't want to be around her. That is perfectly normal.

I hope things change for you. You deserve infinitely better than this. It is time for you to do you.

 

[Tanya M]

I am sorry I emotionally vomited all over the forum. That is what it feels like and while it is messy and dirty, it feels better to have it out because in the real world, I have to keep it in. And holding it in just makes it grow.

Vomit away Walrus, I will even hold your hair back while you get it all out.
You never need to apologize for this here.

Perhaps you can do what I did and "be done", cut off all contact and just let time pass. As I shared earlier, my son did eventually reach out to me and while his demeanor seams "softer" I am still very guarded. The time I had no contact with him was very healing for me, I was really able to recharge and put things in perspective.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Vomit away Walrus, I will even hold your hair back while you get it all out.
You never need to apologize for this here.

Perhaps you can do what I did and "be done", cut off all contact and just let time pass. As I shared earlier, my son did eventually reach out to me and while his demeanor seams "softer" I am still very guarded. The time I had no contact with him was very healing for me, I was really able to recharge and put things in perspective.

Did he hit rock bottom? That is usually pretty crucial for real recovery. An addict is ready to get help once they have lost just about everything. When we are at our lowest point, we are open to the biggest change. Which is why you need to let the addict do what the addict does, without enabling it.

 

[TheWalrus]

I pray daily she doesn't get pregnant. Awful, maybe, but I cannot imagine a helpless baby in her care. She cannot care for herself. She cannot care for others. I just hope time and age will bring her to a point where she wants to get help and actively does. I know she cannot possible be happy. Happy people don't treat people and act the way she does. In that, I feel such sorrow. No ne wants their child to be miserable. All of your posts help and encourage. No one understands unless they have lived it.

 

[Copabanana]

I agree with the others, that being "done" has to do with where you are Walrus not anything to do with the ultimate diagnoses or decisions or prognosis for your daughter. While I do not think it is either necessary or really possible to know with certainty which came first the chicken or egg, I believe you can decide rightfully and righteously based upon your welfare.

doing so does not make you a bad mom but rather a healthy parent

I so agree with this.

Some of us have walked away from mentally ill children who were abusing us. Were we wrong?
Who can tell us that? Self-sacrifice is not helpful or curative of anybody.

The unsaid thing in your posts is this: Am I worth saving at the hands of my child? The answer is yes.

Well, drug addiction itself often presents as personality disorders.

This is so, but how will it make a difference, in your protecting yourself, right now the ultimate "curability potential" so to speak of your daughter.
If you feel as if strangled now, does the etiology of diagnosis make much of a difference.

Their changing was always in their hands, not ours.

The fact that her father was so similar in behavior to you, makes this exquisitely horrible torture.

Life certainly does seem to pick at scabs.

 

[BusynMember]

Darkwing, believe it or not that is often true of the mentally ill sober as well. There is a worse stigma in my opinion to mental illness than substance abuse because substance abuse is the reason why they are crazy. But if you are sober and mentally ill, it means you are no excuses crazy. Many people, especially with personality disorders, sober or otherwise, do not want to change because they are inherently selfish. They dont care if they hurt others as long as they dont hurt. Which is why often they need a hard rock bottom slam too before they bother to get help to change. "The pot helps me" is not good enough. Numbing spaciness doesnt change anyone from the inside and I've seen daily pot users lack ANY motivation. They vegetate unless pushed and do not change. It takes dealing with your guts to change.
Of course untreated mental illness and substance abuse often go together, making both issues worse.
Just saying, often mental illness requires
rock bottom too or the mentally pill person will refuse treatment for mental illness. It is actually brave to admit one is mentally ill...the stigma is enourmous.
JMO

 

[TheWalrus]

I think she uses drugs and gravitates toward users to fit in, so that her outrageous behavior doesn't stand out, as well as to numb herself. I have such a strong sense of self and I cannot imagine the torture of not having that, which is a huge struggle for her.

Copa, I know you are right. Having a diagnosis does not change her behavior or what it does to me. She has to do it herself. If it were something I could wrap in a box and give as a gift, I would do it a thousand times over. It just to add salt in the wound to know there is a reason and there is not one thing I can do to make her seek treatment. I just don't understand why someone would choose this quality of life if a better one was available.

 

[BusynMember]

Walrus, her diagnosis makes her vulnerable to doing self destructive things. Just like other people seem to shun drama and dont like it. Your daughter can get help. in my opinion it matters that she has a label because, although knowing what it is wont change anything, first of all YOU can learn what to expect and there are books out there to help you deal with this disorder,much as there are books out to help you with a family member who has cancer. There are practices that work best for certain problems.
More importantly there is very specific and helpful treatment for borderline. Regular therapy doesnt normally work. Your daughter can go to a type of therapy known to help others with her issues. You never know. SHE MiGHT. Treating a broken arm by casting a leg doesnt work. I tend to be rather logical, feeling that it helps more in the medical world than emotion, so I try to diissect problems and share the best info I know of. I've been mentally ill all my life and one way I dealt with it was to learn about different illnesses and share what I learned and people can take what they like and leave the rest. Maybe one person will be helped...ya know?
I hope I helped a little. Did not mean to be harsh. Walrus, you seem so nice and my own soft heart, which is hidden behind my logical mind, wishes you everything good in life and the ability to learn how to maybe communicate with your daughter, if you want, in a way that works best for parents of borderlines. Trust me, you are NOT alone. Many mothers have met borderline.

You have all the best vibes from me. Your particular situation is unique, like nobody elses here. Do what is best for you and know we are all holding your hand. Whatever you do is ok with us. We all took our own paths and so may you, sweet mother.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I pray daily she doesn't get pregnant. Awful, maybe, but I cannot imagine a helpless baby in her care. She cannot care for herself. She cannot care for others. I just hope time and age will bring her to a point where she wants to get help and actively does. I know she cannot possible be happy. Happy people don't treat people and act the way she does. In that, I feel such sorrow. No ne wants their child to be miserable. All of your posts help and encourage. No one understands unless they have lived it.

I feel you there. My twin sister now has THREE children. She arrived in Reno with the younger son, Christopher. And promptly dumped him off on my aunt, uncle, and me. Played NO role in his life in any way. In fact, her actions resulted in him being taken away from us. Something they only accomplished after pinning me to the ground and handcuffing me. It was very painful... What pissed me off the most was when I spoke to my sister the very next day. She didn't give a single . It literally didn't phase her in the least. She just showed up, hit my aunt up for money, and bounced. I was very close to throttling her at that point. I remember thinking about how nice it must be to not have human emotions. Kid ended up with his grandmother in Texas, which was good. She is good people, with a large family. Stereotypical black church going type from Texas. And he is with his older brother, who has the same father. Then she gets pregnant again. And is arrested months before she went into labor. Drove all the way to Vegas to be able to take the baby so she wouldn't end up with the state, too. Had her since day one. I really did try not to get too attached to her because of what happened last time, but it wasn't possible. Yet, my sister clearly cares VERY little about her. She has been out of prison for 6 months now, and has seen her maybe 5 or 6 times. It doesn't bother her. I don't understand it.... It isn't JUST drugs. It is her, for better or worse. Accepting that has made things a bit easier. I accept the fact that NOTHING I do will change it. And that dwelling on it is an enormous waste of time. I don't get along with her, but I am not actively out trying to get her, or anything. I don't want a relationship with her, so I don't have one. And I don't think it makes me a bad brother, or a bad uncle to her children.

People are who they are. And if they are out to hurt you, why should you put up with it? You shouldn't, and I think you're perfectly justified in wanting to protect yourself. I do not know your daughter, and I am NOT a doctor of any kind. I speak only from experience, and I could just be entirely wrong. Maybe my sister isn't a perfect sociopath. Maybe your daughter isn't, either. I hope they aren't, and I am hoping it changes, but I do not need to put up with it affecting my life negatively. If either of them do change, they wont need to tell you. You will see it yourself.

 

[TheWalrus]

SWOT - I don't find you harsh at all. I have tried to learn what her triggers are and avoid them, but sometimes they seem to come from nowhere. I am learning all I can but a lot of what I read makes me feel like I should stand by her no matter what she does and I am a bad person and do t respect her illness if I don't.

Darkwing - I cannot imagine the pain of this being your twin. My daughter often seems to have no human emotion, too. The only time I feel her emotions are genuine and not a mask of some kind is when she is angry. How sad is that?

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

SWOT - I don't find you harsh at all. I have tried to learn what her triggers are and avoid them, but sometimes they seem to come from nowhere. I am learning all I can but a lot of what I read makes me feel like I should stand by her no matter what she does and I am a bad person and do t respect her illness if I don't.

Darkwing - I cannot imagine the pain of this being your twin. My daughter often seems to have no human emotion, too. The only time I feel her emotions are genuine and not a mask of some kind is when she is angry. How sad is that?

Sad, certainly. But completely in character for somebody with sociopaths tendencies. it isn't that sociopaths are incapable of emotion. They are just incapable of feeling empathy. Of appreciating the pain of others. They feel their own emotions just as well as we feel ours.