Meltdown begets meltdown?

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by LauraH, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. LauraH

    LauraH Active Member

    Back story: last week I paid for a week's worth of my son's medications with the understanding that he would go to the outpatient program available through the facility where he spent a few days getting stabilized and getting his medications straightened out. It was up to him to make an appointment for the initial consultation. He decided it was more important to take a 5 day vacation with his partner (or ex or whatever they are at any given moment). Yesterday he showed up begging me to get him another week's worth. I said no but my husband said he would so he finally did get another week's supply.

    But between the time he showed up asking for help and the time he got the money from my husband (who was at work at the time) I "learned" the following about myself during my son's meltdown.

    1. I am the most selfish, self-centered person he has ever known in his life.

    2. I am responsible for him being the way he is because his father, it turns out, had mental issues also that were passed on to my son.

    3. I need serious mental help because I am crazy, irrational, and completely unhinged.

    4. My life is deteriorating because I am in a bad marriage that is destroying me.

    5. All his past and present problems stem from my "handing him over to the state to raise" (I called the police when he was 14 and slapped me in the face with a dried out palm frond...thinking there was some sort of diversion program in Daytona like one he was in in Georgia, but instead the state filed domestic battery charges against him which led to him being on juvenile probation for five years.)

    6. It's my fault he was on probation as long as he was. He could have been off in six months because he committed no further criminal activity but continually violated his probation...breaking curfew, skipping school, doing drugs. And the probation and residential facilities that resulted from that were not because he did those things but because I reported them to the court.

    And a few more things that I can't remember now.

    All of the above is either blatantly false or at best partially true. I did not take anything he said to heart, because I know better. But in addition to that he borrowed my phone under false pretenses, presumably to call my friend and ask if he could borrow her phone charger (he has an iPhone and I have an Android so he couldn't use mine)...and instead he got into a text war with his partner/ex/whatever.

    He then proceeded to hack the partner's Facebook account, as well as make some changes to my computer (I'm still trying to figure out exactly what he did, but there are several bookmarked pages that were not there yesterday and that I did not add to my bookmarks)

    And to top it off, the "partner" showed up at my door at 11 last night yelling about his Facebook account, so they got into a shouting match that I'm sure the other tenants in the building enjoyed as much as my husband and I did. My husband very nearly called the police.

    I get that he goes off the rail when he's out of his medications. But for two weeks in a row now we have spent bill money to fix him up for a week, and I am totally anticipating that he will ask us to do the same next week. Enough is enough. He's had time to find a job and/or get on the discount program and chooses to other "more important" things instead of making an effort to get himself situated.

    He spent the night with us last night and did not get up until 3:30 this afternoon. Yesterday was a complete waste for me, workwise and household choreswise. The cats got fed and my son got his medications and that's all that was accomplished. Today was no better because I am in such a state of anxiety and I was afraid if I tried to do anything constructive I would wake him up and he would go off again. (So I spent most of the day in my bedroom watching TV and chatting on Facebook. Oh and he had said he had a 12:30 appointment at the outpatient clinic...which obviously he blew off)

    When he did get up he asked to use my computer and I said no, but declined to discuss the reasons with him because I am right now too angry to try to have a conversation with him. And it still bothers me and always will bother me how he says I should be understanding of the fact that he has an illness...which I do. But I also know that I am the target of his rages and meltdowns and he can turn it off or tone it down when he's with friends or out in public or there are other people in my home besides just me. So how much of what he does and says to me is truly his illness and how much is sheer "I don't give a crap" manipulation?

    Honest to God, i wish I had just let him stay in Chicago. I can't do this anymore and right now I don't even want him in my home. Getting him to leave, that's another thing entirely. If push comes to shove I will get my landlord and/or the police involved, and if it means the end of whatever twisted relationship my son and I have, then so be it. The level of toxicity in my home is palpable. I'm at the end of my rope with this kid.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  2. LauraH

    LauraH Active Member

    And now this: I just went to use the bathroom for the first time since he left to go do...whatever he's doing this evening...and oh, joy, saw that he had pooped and either forgotten to or failed to flush. I am trying really hard to pick my battles because I admit I have a tendency to nitpick. But I don't think this is something I can overlook or suck up.
  3. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Hi Laura

    I am so sorry this is so hard.

    I will be direct: Things do not seem like they have changed. He seems to be still there with you. He seems to be living as he wants, according to his rules. He seems to not be taking responsibility for his medication, himself or his life. He seems to expect you to accept the craziness and disorderliness of his life and to let him live it in your space. He seems not to be following through with any of his commitments.

    The question is this: What are you going to do?
  4. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    Ugh. What a ...crappy day. I’m sorry. I’m glad you’re not taking the things he said to heart.

    As far as whether they are mental illness or plain manipulation, I guess I’m at the point where I’m just like...what’s the difference? Why do any of us behave the way we do? What does it matter what we call it?

    I’d probably let the unflushed poop go and focus on the other behaviors. I would also not get drawn into relitigating the past. Perhaps just ‘that’s not relevant now and we’re not going to discuss it.’

    So, questions:
    • Why was he staying at your house? Can you tell him he is not welcome to stay again since he is treating you poorly?
    • Where is the partner staying? When does he go back to Chicago?
    • What happens when he runs out of medications again? Can you tell him he’s on his own now since he is not keeping up his end of the deal with getting to appointments?
    He is clearly taking advantage of you. Staying with you was not part of the deal. Having you provide his medications was not part of the deal. Inviting his partner down and sucking you into their drama was not part of the deal.

    This seems to be going in the wrong direction. Has he made any progress towards the things he came down there to do? What has he accomplished since he’s come home?
  5. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    There is no way he would be living with me. No way. But we are all different.

    Are you sure your son used your money for medication and is taking it correctly?

    I would and have set boundaries down on what your son is allowed to say to you in your house. I do the same with one of my kids but he lives far away so I hang up if he breaks the rules and he doesnt much anymore.

    The rules are that he is not allowed to say mean, hurtful things to me or cuss at me. Period. I dont do it to him so I say the rule goes both ways. In your case I would throw him out any time he talked that way or withhold something he cares about. Honestly he sounds like he is not very aporeciative of your love and caring....and there is no excuse for his behavior. He is not psychotuc, just mean and maybe using drugs.

    Mental illness does not make you an &&&hole. He doesnt scream and yell at his friends about how horrible they are. He has control of himself when he wants to or nobody would speak to him. He most certainly doesnt have to talk that way to you. And only you can teach him to treat you better or face serious consequences. There is no excuse for that tirade. Dont listen to it. Make him leave when he does that.

    If you listen you are giving him permission to treat you like crap if you allow it and dont take serious action.

    Its not easy to set a boundary but sometimes its best for both of us.

    Why cant he get on Medicaid and pay for his own medicine? If he takes it.

    I certainly hope you never let him use your car. He wants to party all night? Let him walk there and lock him out. He has gall acting this way in YOUR home, which should be your sanctuary. If he makes you feel scared/uncomfortable in your own house in my opinion he should have to leave and figure it out himself. He is not 14.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  6. Smithmom

    Smithmom Active Member

    What happened to the original terms of his move to your state? Why was he in your house? What about your husband's health? Vacation was never in the original agreement. Staying with you was not. You paying for medication once was not much less twice. He didn't get set up for second week of medication? What... He forgot there would be another week of subox? All this time and no job but time and money for vacation? Kick him out. Period. His choice where he goes. Tirade at you ends it all. Change the locks. Call the cops if he shows up at your door. If he wants another chance he can call in 6 mo when he has a job and place to live. You can discuss it then.

    Far as I recall he's done none of what he promised to do in original deal.

    I will not be spoken to that way. One tirade at me and mine's out period. And he knows it.
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  7. LauraH

    LauraH Active Member

    Okay so you are all spot on with your assessment of my post. First, to clarify, he does not live here, although he does seem to "hang out" here a great deal, which is sometimes a good thing, sometimes tolerable and sometimes unbearable. He stayed here last night because his withdrawal from his medications (and likely withdrawal from street drugs as well) he was exhausted, and by the time he was able to get his medications they knocked him out almost immediately. I'm thinking that had something to do with why he slept so late today. I had decided not to confront him with that until I see what happens over the next day or two. Supposedly he has living arrangements although when I ask him about the friend he's purportedly staying with (a girl that he's known for years) he gives me answers that are vague and even shady sounding. Something isn't smelling right, but I don't want to jump to conclusions because when I do they are often the wrong conclusions. I assume his suitcase is still there as he doesn't have it with him when he comes to our house.

    He is well aware of our expectations and boundaries, although he tries to play the "you never told me that" card or sometimes the "I don't remember you saying that card." He got annoyed at me last night after we ate because he left his plate on the coffee table and went back to do something on the computer. We are constantly in an uphill battle against roaches, so while leaving a phone charger or deck of cards on the coffee table isn't a big deal, leaving dirty dishes is. We literally have to take our dishes to the sink and rinse them and/or put them in the dishwasher immediately in order to not entice the bugs. He said I was just a control freak and neat freak (if you saw my house that you would make you laugh out loud) and have to have things my own way all the time. He doesn't get it...or just chooses to be lazy and obstinate...I don't know.

    When I try to discuss the boundaries with him he cuts me off, gets loud and angry, gets defensive, and dregs up my past "transgressions". I am easily sidetracked and when he makes me lose my train of thought it's usually difficult to get back on it and next thing you know he's taken the floor to rail against me and how lacking I am in understanding and sensitivity to his illness. Granted, my understanding is limited and I find myself looking at things through the lens of a rational adult, which he is far from that. But years ago my brother quoted me a line from a movie he had seen about a criminal whose defense lawyer was using his turbulent and chaotic life as an abused child to defend the behavior. Someone, either the judge or prosecutor said "That may explain your behavior but it does not excuse or justify it." And that's how I see things with my son. Yes he's damaged and has heavy baggage, but he thinks that means sympathy with no accountability. Wrong...

    I met my husband shortly before he locked up and closed his store for the night and then we had a nice relaxed dinner at a nearby Barbecue restaurant. We couldn't afford it but we both needed it and it helped my disposition immensely. Assuming my son shows up at some point tonight before we go to bed, he has agreed to make him sit down and hear us out as we go over the boundaries one last time. I want to get it in writing but my printer is down so what I will do is email it to my husband and have him print it at work tomorrow. Maybe we should have my son sign off on it as well, so that when he says we never had the conversation or whatnot, I can show him his signature confirming that we did indeed have the conversation. I am just really apprehensive about his possible reaction, having seen his bipolar meltdowns and rages most of his life now. Like I said if I have to I'll involve our landlord and the police, although there we are risking potential fallout and possible eviction. At this point that's a risk I am absolutely willing to take.

    • What happens when he runs out of medications again? Can you tell him he’s on his own now since he is not keeping up his end of the deal with getting to appointments?
    That's the plan as long as he shows no effort in getting himself squared away. Of course he will then say that we have to let him stay with us as he's going through withdrawal. Uh, nope, no way.

    Has he made any progress towards the things he came down there to do? What has he accomplished since he’s come home?
    Very little from what I can see, if any. No job yet, no NA meetings after that first one, no disability application, nothing. And no he's not eligible for Medicaid in Florida, although he would be if he were approved for disability, which he refuses to do on the grounds that the process is too long and complicated and doesn't pay enough to live on. (because he's living so well on a $0 income)

    As far as the two weeks' worth of medications, we didn't just hand him the money. The first time i went with him to the pharmacy and paid. The second time my husband handed him the money but I went with him to get it filled. As far as I know he takes it according to schedule. I'm sure that's offset by whatever drugs he has been and/or still is doing though.

    Has anyone staged an intervention (along the lines of that show on...A&E?) I don't know where to look for information on that possibility and I have no idea how much it would cost, so that could preclude it right off the bat. Plus I know the person in question would have to be willing to participate, and that's a big if with my son. Also as far as I can tell it would just be me, my son, possibly my husband, and a mediator. No clue if that would be effective or just a waste of time and money even if it's something we can afford. If anyone knows of any valid links to information I would welcome them. I googled intervention the other day and mostly got ads and links to websites about the TV show.
  8. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    Of course he does. Classic deflection tactics. And it’s working! He is distracting you from holding your boundaries.

    Boundary setting is hard but critical. The early stages are hell. They will fight back and push as long as fighting and pushing work. It’s like dealing with a toddler - if you give in and give them the cookie once to stop the tantrum, they’ll keep having tantrums ... because it works.

    You don’t need to discuss boundaries. You just need to state them clearly, and then hold them. It is not a negotiation. Don’t let him make it one.

    I don’t have direct experience, but my understanding is that the efficacy of these tactics is pretty low. Especially if there isn’t something big at stake for them. I can see it MAYBE working as a wake up call to someone with a lot to lose - a wife, a family, a career. An intervention makes what will be lost clear, and forces a decision. But what does your son have to Lose? What are the stakes for him? What motivation can you possibly give him for quitting, if he hasn’t found it for himself by now?

    The idea with this move was that he would get himself away from the toxic partner and into treatment, right? And yet he had done neither of those things. He’s just brought his drama to YOU. You’re right - at this rate, he might as well have stayed in Chicago.

    The bottom line is it does not appear that he wants to or is ready to change. He seems to like the drama of this relationship. He seems to like creating drama with you. He had a need to see himself as a victim in your relationship, and he has shown no willingness to take responsibility for his own life. He is not even willing to show you basic courtesy and consideration in your own home.

    One thing I have learned with mine is the more I let them walk on me the less respect they have for me. If I let them take advantage a bit, they become more and more entitled. If I let my boundaries slip, they keep pushing harder. As the adage says, if you give them an inch, they’ll take a mile. When I hold my boundaries firmly and consistently I get respect and consideration. Not right away - first comes the backlash - but over time.

    I think it’s time to stand firm and let him face his own consequences. He is not ready for change. No intervention is going to change that. And the more comfortable you make him the less likely he will be to find the motivation for change.

    I’m sorry. :(
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  9. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Why are you looking for drama?

    This is simple: He needs to go. All of the power, decisions and responsibility are yours. He will keep pushing the limits as long as you permit it.

    He can stay in the area if he chooses, but not hang out at your house. If you choose you can meet him somewhere else for a visit. Nothing you have written indicates he is willing to listen to your needs or respect your boundaries. It is only a question of not letting him into the house again. You can tell him to call you before coming and from now on, tell him you will meet him somewhere else.

    How in the world would an intervention help? I am missing that crucial piece. This is not an issue about him. This is an issue about you. Whether or not you are going to take responsibility to set a limit and enforce it, with him. Over and over again he is disrespectful, puts all responsibility onto you, and pushes limits. This will not change anytime soon.
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  10. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Intervention is a TV show. Dont waste your time and money. Dont talk to him about anything. Tell him the rules shortly, or write the rules down and hand them to him (have extra copies for when he tears it up). He doesnt get a say. This is not a discussion of the rules. He doesnt to argue about this.

    Be sure to letlhim know his rules in a crowded restaurant so that he cant hit you or destroy your home. Do not read him the riot act at home. not have this meeting at home. Did I mention do not tell him your absolute, non-negotiable rules at home??

    Do not hear him out. This is not a two way discussion. If he acts up hand him the rules and leave and call the poice if he follows you home or goes there later or tries to break in. You are serious this time. He is abusing you, possibly committing elder abuse.

    This is one young man who needs to learn that life is hard. He has a place to stay with some girl he says, and even if he doesnt he never has the automatic privledge of being allowed in your home if he wont be civil or even wash a dish. Who does he think he is? Your slavedriver?

    I really think this adult man needs a real consequental slapdown. He is quite the entitled man toddler who thinks he can do and say whatever he wants and still get favors from you. That in my opinion is not good for any of you. This is not worth your health. He should only see you in a crowded restaurant where you can walk away if he abuses you, not in your home, your sanctuary.

    Sorry if this sounds harsh. He honestly sounds terrible and believe me he does NOT talk to his friends the way he talks to you or he wouldn't have any friends. He has control over how he behaves. This is not mental illness. This is brat. Or brat plus drugs and you are not a professional who can handle either. If he needs to detox he needs a hospital. You dont know how to help him. I am outraged for you and husband. Let him leave. Dont let him back in your house.
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  11. Smithmom

    Smithmom Active Member

    I agree with the others about an "intervention". IF that would work, unlikely, it would only work if you had a professional there, ready to go with him to a program already paid and agreed to take him. Most of us don't have the money to do that. Rehabs don't hold beds open for addicts they haven't talked to. Non cash paying programs don't accept addicts conditional on their agreeing to go at some future date. God bless if you want to spend some hours trying to find a place. But I strongly suggest that you find the "interventionist" first and let them do the calling. And how are you going to pay that person? Bottom line. No, not feasible.

    Further, what does he have to lose? He's lost everything but your home. Kick him out and you've done it.

    Why are you torturing yourself more by arguing with him about this? You had an agreement and he violated it. You know it. He knows it. Now he's manipulating you into going back to the discussions before he came down. Starting all over as if its a new situation. Its not. Nothing has changed except he has lost the other place he had.

    Sorry but you are letting him torture you. Its over. Tell him that. Don't give him another penny.
  12. Smithmom

    Smithmom Active Member

    Go back and read what you have posted here over the last few months.
  13. Triedntrue

    Triedntrue Active Member

    I just had an argument with my son tonight over me not always answering the phone immediately when he calls. I sometimes choose not to because it is always do me a favor or i need. So he got nasty and i blocked his number. I will turn it back on when he has had time to calm down. Maybe that would work for you and give you a couple days of peace. I text him why and immediately block so he can't answer back. In the text i would tell him not to come over he will not be allowed in. Good Luck
  14. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Laura, How old is your son?

    Your story reminds me very much of my daughter from the ages of 19-28. I simply could not stand her anymore. You are not being a nit pick in your own home, YOU are entitled to run your own home anyway you want and your wayward son knows better than to act like that. When my daughter was living here it was almost like she was begging me to throw her out, she knew that I could not tollerate her awful behavior, it was causing health issues with me and I did not want to live in constant turmoil.
    My daughter was constantly fighting with who ever she was dating at the time and I was forced to listen to it while she lived here.
    One day I told my daughter she has to leave, I simply could not put up with her abuse any longer. I prayed and meditated about it and told myself that I deserve to live in peace. The main reason I tolerated her BS so long was that I was so afraid of her dying..After much prayer I realized that our relationship was like a death anyway and by allowing her to abuse me, she was actually killing my spirit and making me useless for my husband, family members, Church and community, she was robbing my very soul just being around her. I love my daughter more than anyone in this entire world, and I was not teaching her anything constructive by allowing her to use and abuse me.. I went to counseling with her and during that session told her that I will not be tolerating her any longer. I cut ties with her for 3 months, cut them sharp and hard, did not answer the phone or door when she tried to contact me. She tried calling me from other peoples phones but I did not answer. I wanted her to feel what life was like without me and if it was better for her I would have been ok with that decision because taking her abuse was not good for her or me. I have buried a child so I know what a death feels like, me having to do this to my daughter felt harder than a death. It was the hardest thing but it was the best and only choice I had. When my daughter realized I had the strength to do this, it helped set her into motion to try to straighten herself out. It is horrible to admit but I tolerated her way longer than I should have. I kept taking her to therapy and working with it day after day until I realized I was doing more work than she was trying to get her well, she was not even trying.
    My daughter has severe anxiety along with all her other stuff and she needed to learn to manage it, I tried to do it for years and she did not even try. Saying I have had enough and making it stop was the best for both of us. I took the chance that I may never see her again and in reality I was ok with that because I did not want another person in my life that was seeking to destroy me, I could continue to pray and love her from afar but not take the blunt of her beatings.

    Slowly she came around and we ended up having a workable realtionship but had I not got aggressive with it I would still be having the belligerent abuse now.. Even now things are not easy, they are better and when she does get belligerent she is quick to make things right because she knows I have the strength to blow her off.

    I had to be the one to make the madness stop because she would not. The abuse stopped because I took myself out of the picture. I have to admit I cried at least 3 times a day because the situation was just so awful. This is what I have learned.
    1. My daughter with all her mental illness and other odd behaviors knows right from wrong and it much more together and smarter than I give her credit for.
    2. If my daughter can make up elablorate lies and can steal so much money from me, she can shelter and feed herself.
    3. If I act like prey she will become a preditor. If I tolerate her abuse she will keep giving it out.
    4. I worked out letting go of being so afraid of her death. Our relationship was a living death and I just could not take it any longer.
    5. Our children need us as much as we need them. They might not act like it but they do unless they are a true psychopath and if they are it is best to love from afar.
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  15. elizabrary

    elizabrary Active Member

    I agree with what has been said- boundaries are not a discussion. You state them and maintain them. When I first set boundaries with my daughter she upped the ante, which is common. She went off the rails and turned into a raving lunatic. I had to turn both of my phones off so she could not continue to call me and leave screaming messages. Fortunately I live out in the boonies and there's no way she would spend her time driving to my house or she would have come and caused a scene. I would've called the police if she did that and refused to leave. It makes sense when you think about it objectively. These kids have lived their whole lives without us enforcing appropriate boundaries. Of course they think if they act even worse we will cave. It was very hard at first, but it became easier over time because I learned to turn my focus on myself and also because she realized my boundaries are non-negotiable.
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  16. LauraH

    LauraH Active Member

    Give an inch and he'll take a mile, and then another, and then another until he could pave a road from coast to coast.

    Thursday evening, after I had a relaxing dinner out with my husband, I got him to agree to have a sit-down with my son when we saw him, which we did. When my son inevitably showed up everything was great for a time. He had worked that evening delivering flyers for a local pizza place and had cash in his pocket for the first time in I don't know how long. No idea how much or how little but when you're broke $10 can be a godsend. So he was happy about that and happy that he had an interview at a restaurant yesterday (Friday) which he was almost guaranteed because his friend from school is a supervisor there. So he was in a good mood and even after we had our "talk" still seemed mostly stable and calm.

    Of course, he got agitated as I was trying to tell him what he needs to do, what he needs to stop doing, what he is doing well or at least in the right direction, and what he needs to work on. I was starting to get flustered with his agitation and constant interrupting, and my husband jumped in to try to be the peacemaker. He basically said in a nutshell that my son needs to show us the same basic courtesy and respect he would in anyone else's home, i.e., cleaning up after himself, asking before helping himself to whatever he wants (including but not limited to food), etc. He "acknowledged" that he had not been doing this and "promised" to do better. (In quotes because it was just words coming out of his mouth. He would promise to cut the grass with a pair of scissors if he needed to, even though he obviously wouldn't follow through.) After that he told us his friend's sister was visiting from out of town and she needed the room my son is supposedly staying in, and could he please stay with us? and that the friend's sister was leaving the next day (Friday) so he could go back then. I was about to say no when my husband said, of course you can. (God bless him, he has more patience with my son than I do apparently...but that's because he doesn't go off the rails when my husband's around like he does when it's just the two of us)

    Anyway he went to his job interview yesterday and came back all smiles saying he has the job pending the background check. I don't know what a Pizza Hut background check entails other than checking references and possibly a criminal background check, but he has no criminal issues that I'm aware of so that shouldn't be a problem. I made a nice simple dinner, and my son pitched in and helped as well, after which he left around 8 or so presumably to go to his friend's, leaving my husband and me to enjoy the rest of our evening.

    Fast forward...for whatever reason I woke up around 5:30 this morning and couldn't get back to sleep so I got on the computer to kill some time and see if I could make myself sleepy again. Around 6 there's a light knock at my door that made me nearly jump out of my skin. Guess who it was!!! In very hushed but angry tones I asked him what he was doing at our door that early in the morning. He couldn't understand how him being there at that time could be construed as disrespectful. I asked him why he wasn't still at his friend's house (the one he's supposedly staying at) and he claimed he never said he was going there. I told him my husband and I both heard him say he was going to "Danielle's". He then told me I was crazy and delusional. So I guess my husband is crazy and delusional as well since we both had the exact same "hallucination". Sheesh. At any rate I told him he was going too far after everything we have done for him. He threw his hands up, said "Goodbye, Mom" and walked away. I know he'll be back, if nothing else he has a pair of shoes and the duffel bag he used to carry the flyers in, so he'll be back for those at least. I'm not sure I'll even let him come in when he does show up next. (Although it's likely that he'll wait until I'm no longer this angry and irritated and more apt to fall for whatever line of BS he has for me)

    Someone on one of my earlier posts suggested that maybe he was literally homeless without a place to stay and that he was sleeping on the streets (in other words not really sleeping) at night and came here to crash during the day. I've actually considered that possibility as I get more and more skeptical that he really is staying with his friend. But if that's the case, he needs to level with me instead of giving me one dubious story after another. Then again, at this point, I am so aggravated with him I don't know how I would respond if he came completely clean with me.

    And putting everything in writing, with multiple copies, is a good idea. He can't interrupt and argue derail my train of thought if he's reading words on a paper, although he can ball that paper up and throw it away. Oh and by the way...I have told him many times over the years about many different rules, decisions, consequences, etc. "This is not up for debate or negotiation"...whereupon he constantly interrupts to interject his "side" of things, calls me "unfair", or has one of his rages or meltdowns. This continues to be his MO, making it extremely difficult if not impossible to talk to him or tell him anything. I don't want to permanently ban my son from my home but I'm thinking that may be my only alternative.
  17. LauraH

    LauraH Active Member

    He's 29, 30 in March.
  18. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Ok. He is 29, a big man.

    Giving him your bottom line (I advised doing it in public so he cant act up or argue) is less than useless if you dont adhere to what you say. The key is doing it. Saying it is pointless if you dont do it. Fast and with no discussions.

    He is never ever ever going to level with you about his probably crimimal, drugged life at night. You need to learn one important skill for your sanity....acceptance, even if you wish it were different. Acceptance of who he is. Not wishful thinking that he will magically change on this day. Acceptance of who he is today and has been for years.

    Acceptance is necessary for making smart, safe choices.

    Here are some probable truths.

    He is too old and dangerous in his lifestyle to live with you, sleep in your house, eat there etc. You can see him in public. Too bad if he throws a toddler tantrum. He is less likely to do so in a crowded public place than in your home.

    He lies all the time. You will not sit him down and get him to level with you. He wont. He will make something up and probably yell but he wont level with you. Period. Cross that ecpectation off your list.

    You can not give him bottom lines then argue with him about what a bottom line is and expect compliance. The bottom line is your opinion of it. He gets no say. Maybe he was lingering near your room hoping to swipe your wallet. Or even to hurt you or your husband. He isnt going to tell you why. The truth is not in him. He COULD hurt you. Lock your door if you must let him sleep.there but I hope you stop it for your safety. It is creepy for a grown man to be lingering outside your door. Even a son. You were right tp be scared.

    He is not a nice person right now. He is dangerous to your health and well being or one of you could die from stress because of him.

    He is a drug addict, probably still using.

    You need marriage counseling so that both of you can gain strength and work together.

    Didnt your husband have a heart attack?

    If you dont accept who and what your son is, and act on what you know, it will turn out bad for all tnree of you. You cant sit him down in your house, tell him rules that he knows you wont enforce and shake hands on a deal. At 29 he needs to figure it out himself. Or not.

    Do want this to continue when he is 40? Or will he be in jail then?

    For the sake of God himself, never ever allow one of his thug friends in your house. They are too old to have sleepovers. Were they planning a crime?

    Look up Radical Acceptance. It is very important to do this.

    For your sakes and those who kindly and dearly love you, let your son handle his own messes and please not in your home.

    Love and hugs!
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  19. LauraH

    LauraH Active Member

    I think we might have had a major breakthrough today (way too early to get any sense of optimism though) My son, after leaving, came back around 10 as my husband was leaving for work. He (my husband) delayed leaving for work until he felt sure I was safe, bless him. At any rate, over the course of the day my son pretty much bared his soul. I assume he was being truthful when he told me that he and the ex were using on their little vacation and that he has been using nearly every day since the ex left. Judging by his irrational and jittery behavior, I had a hunch all along that that was part of it. And I told him once and for all that he cannot be here if he is high or using the night before. This is not his crash pad to "sleep it off" and my husband and I have a zero tolerance policy in our home. Since there is no way I can know for certain, I will not let him in if there is any indication of drug use, or if he is here and I pick up on it, he will be asked to leave as soon as I do, and he will not be allowed back into our home even for a meal for an indeterminate period of time.

    I am also terrified for him because he seems to be suffering from paranoid delusion. For the last year he has been telling me that the police in Chicago have had him under surveillance (I'm not sure what for), and now he is saying the FBI is continuing to watch him here in Florida. I have no idea what crimes he may (or may not) have committed but it all stems from some paranoid notion he has about the ex...which makes it all the more ludicrous that he would even give the ex the time of day. But I digress. He seemed to calm down as we spoke and expressed an intention and desire to go to one of the detox facilities in the area. I persuaded him to stay here until my husband got home from work. He expressed sincere gratitude to my husband and me and broke down in tears a few times. He then left to go to the police station and see if there was a warrant for his arrest (I'm certain there is not, but maybe that will help him realize that it's paranoia) and that after that, presuming he didn't get arrested for anything, he was getting a friend to drive him to the detox.

    Nothing that he did or said today is guaranteed to fix anything, and likely won't, but right now it's all I've got to hold onto. Oh and he also suggested that my husband and I write out a set of ground rules pertaining to his visitation in our home, which I was already going to do, but nice to hear it from him. I will be working on that tonight or tomorrow with my husband. I don't know when I'll hear from my son again but hopefully he will keep me posted as to his whereabouts and situation or at least his safety. All I can do now at this point is pray.
  20. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Actions speak. Words mean nothing. There is nothing in my opinion great about admitting he used drugs. In fact it confirms what you already knew and is bad behavior and dangerous.Where is the breakthrough?

    He in my opinion should have been banned from the house for his using. I am not trying to be harsh but the only victory to me seems to be his. He got NO consequences for breaking your rules of no drugs.. Crying and making probably empty promises to me is not a win at all. Big deal if he told you the truth. That means nothing unless he stops doing it. And he wont keep telling the truth.

    If he does meth that causes psychosis that is very similar to the severe mental illness called schozophrenia. It is very dangerous to his mind.

    I still maintain he should not be allowed in your house AT ALL until he has been clean and sober for a year and has paid for and done rehab, sober livi g and continues to go to meetings. Talk is cheap. It is verbal vomit. Actions matter. Only actions.

    Maybe Im too tough but my daughter did quit. At age 20.

    We have been sober now for twelve years. And we didnt play games with her. We meant what we said. It worked. Does being tough cure all kids? No. But I believe it helps more than a hundred second changes. He will never believe you are serious if you dont get serious.

    Sending my prayers, good wishes and hope I am wrong and he actually gets clean
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018