My difficult child

klmno

Active Member
Two other thinggs will play into this but not at tomorrow's hearing- one is that they very well might kick this up to big boy court and out of juvenile court because it's a felony charge and difficult child is over 14yo and has previously been in Department of Juvenile Justice. The second thing will be my mental health evaluation.
 

Shari

IsItFridayYet?
klmno, I am so sorry for all of this. I wish I had answers, except now I think its time to start worrying about the here and now, and not what might happen if...
difficult child has made his choices. I am so sorry for you.
 

graceupongrace

New Member
k,

So sorry it has come to this. I have seen how hard you have tried to help difficult child. But at his age, these behaviors are choices. He did not cut your pockets impulsively in a moment of anger; it was a deliberate act, which makes it even scarier. You have done your best to protect him, but now you must protect yourself and let him experience the consequences of his decisions. When he does not control himself, others will control him. That's how the world works. It's a hard lesson to learn, and maybe even harder for a mom to watch.

Many hugs.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I am so sorry that he could not even choose to behave semi-decently for even a week upon getting out. You must feel so let down and betrayed by him. We have ALL seen you fight tooth and nail to help him get the treatment he needs and to help him learn to live a decent life. At every turn he has chosen to be selfish and to do whatever he wanted, no matter what you did or didn't do.

His behavior this time is truly scary. The threats he was making, combined with the fact that he truly blames YOU for his choice to pull a knife on you in the past, made me scared for your safety. He was not out long enough to hook up with a group of tougher people in the drug world, which would have put YOU in even more danger.

Part of me wonders if he did this to sort of "set you free", to allow you to rebuild your life with-o having to worry about what he was doing when he wasn't in your sight. He clearly has NO intention of changing his behavior anytime soon, but may have seen how bad things are and decided (with difficult child logic) that if he was incarcerated then you could rebuild your life more easily and with-o having to go to PO meetings, to court, to school conferences, and with-o having to worry about paying for his expenses.

If he felt going back was inevitable, and he may very well feel that way, then he might have pushed things to go back sooner. He also may have felt very uncomfortable being out and may have done this purposely to go back. I am sure that part of it was not wanting to see how his actions have destroyed your financial security and other aspects of your life. He is NOT without perception, after all.

Whatever his motivations, I really wish this hadn't happened. Hopefully you will be able to work through this with a VA therapist so that at some point you can once again feel safe while you sleep. Hopefully his future will hold some therapy and personal realizations that he has the power to make amends for what he has done and can choose to live a decent life within the limits of the law, and that he chooses to do this.
 

klmno

Active Member
I really appreciate all the support. I'm stopping in for a sec before going to the arraignment then probably heading straight to VA for a few hours then back home for a telephone interview about part-time work.

I'm wondering if PO is thinking that with me adding the feleony charge on top of the parole violations, difficult child could end up in Department of Juvenile Justice until he's 17yo, at which time he could go to a Department of Juvenile Justice group home without dss involvement. This seems likje a real possibility. So does this case getting moved to a higher court and coming out of juvenile court's hands. But I'm not sure- I feel pretty sure that would happen if he'd done this to someone else outside the home but, we'll see.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I actually hope they keep it in juvy because adult court might give him a lesser sentence. I noticed that they seemed to almost start things over when they went from juvy to big boy court. Of course, we had a pretty long lapse between getting in trouble.

I am glad you took out the papers though. Best you did it when he is 15 than wait like I did until he was 21.
 

klmno

Active Member
I'm back. The arraignments were running over 45 mins late so there would have been no way I could have gotten to VA in time for my 10:00 appointment. The payphone at the courthouse was broken so I just came home and called. Of course, difficult child's trial date was set for the very day that I am scheduled to get a mammo and finish the MH evaluation/intake at VA and the judge asked everyone but me if that court date was ok, then said it was set and would not change so I guess I'll have to back those appts up even more.

The judge appointed the previous (original) GAL but at the last sec, difficult child's court appointment attny came in the courtroom and questioned about which GAL it should be since another had been appointment last time. TG the judge didn't remember that this last appointment GAL had really only been assigned for a few hours and they hadn't needed him to do anything, so the judge said, "ok, I'll change that then and appoint this last GAL". Shewww.....

They didn't have the paperwork in yet for the theft from me so that was not arraigned, only the parole violations were. PO says he thinks they will arraign and try difficult child both on that charge when they try him on these charges in a few weeks. I'm not so sure- my guess is that it will all be continued after the judge hears about the details of this next charge. PO says difficult child might get 12-18 mos in Department of Juvenile Justice unless some plea bargain is made that gets him down to 8-12 or something like that. There is another time range in between there- 9-15mos I think, that is what difficult child got last time. PO also said that this would not be moved to the higher court and he confirmed that he gave difficult child a drug test yesterday. He;ll get the results back next week.

We agreed in the fact that difficult child is much safer in Department of Juvenile Justice right now and I was pleasantly surprised to hear PO say that difficult child might be somewhat of a danger to me or others but is much more a danger to himself. (The conversation between PO and I was before court- these things did not come out in court because it was only an arraignment.) I hope and pray that this GAL can see it is difficult child's best interest to be in a more secure environment than any typical home can offer. Unfortunately, they pretty much have to decide in the upcoming trial where difficult child will go after his Department of Juvenile Justice committal, which all agreed will most likely happen. The defensive attn'y's face just got flush and he said it broke his heart when PO and I told him all difficult child had done and told us (after the arraignment). Hopefully, with some common perception between PO, me, and def attny, this GAL won't push for something out in left field.
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
Hugs K, I'm glad that you're all able to discuss the best situation for difficult child and get all the details out for one another. Communication being key - I pray for the best and am very happy that you are safe!
 

susiestar

Roll With It
The courts never seem to care if they mess up a parent's life with their schedule, do they? Sorry about having to change your appointments.

Thank God that you get the new GAL!! I am glad someone brought that up and the old GAL will not be there to plant a new knife in your back and twist it just for fun. (I swear that woman did what she did because she enjoyed watching it ruin your relationship with difficult child.)

The def atty seems to care about difficult child, which is good. I bet he was shocked to hear what difficult child did to you. It really was such an outrageous way to step over the boundaries of decent behavior. I am just thankful he didn't decide to hurt you. If he had brought a friend into the house I think he might have hurt you to show off.

Are you regaining any sense of safety in your home? If you are up late at night and need someone to talk to, I will pm you my phone #s. I am usually up most of the night because that is when Jessie is at her worst physically.

I hope that this stays in juvenile court the way they are saying. I don't think he would gain ANYTHING by being in an adult facility.

((((((hugs))))))
 

klmno

Active Member
Thanks, Susie and all. Even if difficult child was sent to adult court, he would not be sentenced to an adult facility. They aren't allowed to "house" juveniles with adults. If it's a 17 yo offender, they might put them in an adult facility but they have to keep them separate from those that are legally adults- there is no chance that difficult child will go to a facility for older people, TG! I'm still regrouping- a lot has happened this past week. And I'm fighting a lot of emotions. I will be going to VA tomorrow or Thurs and while I'm there to discuss housing issues, I will also try to see a therapist on a walk-in basis.

I will try to get difficult child's charges dropped to a misdemeanor. I looked it up and due to the nature of previous offenses, he could end up in state Department of Juvenile Justice for 2 years or more if I don't. I agree that 3-6 mos for parole issues and dropping this charge for theft from me is not a good idea, but I think it's more reasonable and in his best interest to advocate for a lesser charge and him getting 12-18 mos in Department of Juvenile Justice. And I definitely will be bringing up to def attny and new GAL that services are needed, whether or not they are available it should be brought to the judge's attention, in my humble opinion.

My son was letting people physically abuse him. While I am very upset- both hurt and angry- over how he treated me, I also understand that if he is sunk so deep in a hole that he is allowing others to put cigs out on his bare skin, he is not capapble of caring about anyone else right now. He needs help.
 

JJJ

Active Member
K - Be careful about trying to get the charge dropped to a misdemeanor. Plus, that really isn't your call - the DA decides. You really need them to keep him until he is old enough for the Department of Juvenile Justice group home. How long until he turns 17?
 

klmno

Active Member
Approx. 18 mos. unless something changes- I think some things might change between 12-18 mos from now.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I wish there was some way to have them sentence him to something that includes intensive therapy, but the first GAL f'd that up but good. Letting other's put cigarettes out on him is a scream for help. Have you seen the scars, or seen a report that documents the scars? There is no way that a cigarette could be put out on him that wouldn't leave scars. He really is in a very deep dark place. I hope he gets help somehow. The judge DOES need to know this.

As for reducing the charges, I understand wanting to. It really needs to be left up to the DA though. I hope things change very soon as far as what is available for him. Right now he is probably as much a danger to himself as to others if he is not under constant supervision, which cannot be done in a home setting.

((((((((((hugs)))))))))) for both of you
 

Shari

IsItFridayYet?
My heart just hurts for you. I have thought about you off and on all night. Like Susie, I think your difficult child is in a really bad place.
***
That said, tho, no amount of help will help him until he reaches a point that he decides he doesn't like where he is in his life. And I just keep thinking....what can be done to get him to hit that bottom sooner rather than later.
***
Anyway, just wanted to know you and difficult child are in my prayers and on my mind. Not that it helps any...
 

klmno

Active Member
I had seen burn marks on him before he was sent to detention a few months ago and difficult child told me he had done it himself. I still called the crisis center because they were the only place open that time of night and asked if they thought this was a MH issue. I'm not sure if the courts people's attitutde that I'm just a neurotic mom who over-reacts or whatever has made it's way to our MH dept (they all know each other) but the lady at the crisis center toldd me it was nothing to be concerned about because teens these days are doing this to themselves a lot. Fine, I let it go because PO seems to think difficult child does a lot of things just to get the shock factoor from me. But then this past weekend I saw one burn mark on his chest and in hind sight, it probably was where someone put a cig out on him. Apparently, when difficult child had to strip and change clothes in front of guards going into detention Monday, they saw more and told PO. PO asked difficult child about them and that's how it came out that difficult child was letting people put cigs out on him.


PO is one who clearly thinks MH treatment is only there for completely insane people or people who have an issue they want to discuss with a therapist- he doesn't get that there is a lot in between. Just like they don't geet that just because the psychiatrist at Department of Juvenile Justice removed ggfg's bipolar diagnosis doesn't mean that difficult child still doesn't have a mood disorder or something else. But over the past couple of months, PO has acknowledged little by little that difficult child has some serious issues and they mostly revolve around him wanting to be accepted by peers, that his behavior isn't normal, and that we have a very difficult relationship. Nice. We've known all that for years. But courts people were too busy telling their MH evaluators what they wanted the reports to say because they didn't believe what the outside MH evaluators had reported. They didn't see it and didn't believe me. They had listened to my family and believed I was the only problem. This is what I am referring to when I say they have the tail wagging the dog over there. Now PO is starting to see a little of this for himself.

I asked him yesterday if there was any way to get more intensive therapy for difficult child and for us as a family this time while he's in Department of Juvenile Justice. He said no, he'll get the typical generic stuff that all the boys in there get- like they weren't going to do something special for just one. According to PO, this is it- no services for difficult child. And they wonder why I feel like I'm standing here watching them whittle away whatever hope and chance difficult child has left until he's bound for a life of incarceration. They are already telling me that he'll probably never be able to make it in society and will be in the revolviong door the rest of his life. Why? because they didn't unlock the door at 15yo after he'd been incarcerated since barely turning 14 yo and come out a easy child without needing transitional services, therapy, anything. Like he's a dirty white sock that didn't get clean when washed so we'll just throw it away.

I did stress to PO that the two main things I want to make sure the judge knows, besides that difficult child is running around all hours of the night and I can't stop him, is that he let others put cigs out on him, and exactly HOW he stole that money from me.

Reducing charges will be a discussion between the DA and def attny. Being that the offense was against me, the DA probably will ask how I feel about it prior to any plea bargain made. At least that is how it worked last year when difficult child pulled the knife out on me.

ETA: Another thing PO has mentioned but not given details about- he said that a lot of stuff pertaining to the way people over there had been blaming me stemmed from "some things not getting documented and reported correctly- they got a little twisted and not told to others accurately". He told me a few months ago that he'd talked to previous PO about difficult child and "clearly, there were some big problems between the two of us" (she and I). Then when I said to him on Monday that I'd like to know why previous PO and GAL couldn't be held accountable and that I thought they should be, he said he agreed. Since I never had a problem with her until she started trying to micromanage the way I was raising difficult child and I kknew what she wanted was contradictory to what difficult child's MH profs' recommendations were and against my mommy instinct, it makes me think that the PO had some issue against me to start out with. It makes me wonder if there might have been some reverse discrimination going on, too. When the custody case was going on, my attny told me that the PO was out to make me non-compliant for anything she could and was itching to take me to the judge. No one could come up with aa reason though- just that she was not the friendliest person to begin with but she really hated me. A couple of people told me that.

Re. therapy- I agree that no therpeutic methods will work if a person doesn't want them to or isn't willing to at least try them. However, I think sometimes a person's way of thinking is very skewed and they don't see that and it takes a very well-trained therapist to help them see that. And I do think that can be helpful, if it's available, then once the person sees it, it has to be up to them to decide whether or not to do anything about it. difficult child has told me he knows something is wrong but he doesn't know what to do about it and that medications and previous therapy were useless. I have to agree with him on that. But the previous therapy was not with people well-trained in some of these issues and they were all doing the typical that we on this board find when we take our difficult children in for help. This is why I was trying to get difficult child in family therapy at the VA.

I spoke with the homeless rep at VA yesterday. She suggested me going to a transitional home this month, using the time difficult child is in Department of Juvenile Justice this time to get back on my feet and into a home and then being prepared to deal with difficult child in family therapy when he's released. Yeah, hummm, we decided to discuss that more later.

Sorry this got so long. I woke up with a lot on my mind, I guess. Now I have a short period of time to find homes for the dogs and get rid of everything so maybe I can get some money out of it and not have to walk off and leave it for nothing. And it will be even harder to get a job living out of a place like that so I've still got to squeeze some time in for job hunting this week and next.
 
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klmno

Active Member
difficult child just called to say he'd been transferred to another detention center to await trial. I told him that I needed to talk to him at some point. (I don't think he knows yet that I have filed these charges on him and what all this really means.) He got real quiet- like he knew something bad was going to come from this- real bad. I told him to hang in there and we exchanged I love you's then hung up. I don't know if my heart has ever been so broken. Maybe it's just that I feel hurt for so many different reasons, losing the home, difficult child not trying at all and ruining his life, difficult child doing what he did to me, having to give up the dogs, etc., and any of these alone would be hard to deal with.

I'm going to VA tomorrow.

As far as money, I figure I can sell difficult child's gaming stuff for twice what he stole from me and that is what I'm going to do.
 

Shari

IsItFridayYet?
Selling the gaming stuff is a VERY good idea. And I'd let him know, too.

I know this is hard, K, but he HAS to understand you WILL NOT tolerate this from him. Regardless of where it lands him, he has to learn that you, and other decent people like you, won't tolerate that sort of behavior. I think you're doing the right thing. Stay strong. I just pray he its bottom and decides its time to change.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
This has become a very muddy, confused issue since you first pressed charges over the knife incident. Your family got involved and from there, information got badly scrambled. It is very difficult to keep perspective when things get so confused, and when we're dealing with staff positions like PO and GAL, they have a lot of other cases on their desk and need things kept simple. So maybe going back to basics will help keep the main issues on the table.

Like he's a dirty white sock that didn't get clean when washed so we'll just throw it away.

The problem is, the sock won't get clean if it's just tossed into a mud puddle. It needs to at least have clean water, and a bit of agitation and soap would help. It's a good analogy you've used, but take it that little bit further and share it with PO.

Summarise it all. Get back to basics. This kid has diagnosed mental health issues which for whatever reasons, have been reassessed in Department of Juvenile Justice (rightly or wrongly; so the possibility still needs to be on the table). PO can see this behaviour is not normal. Frankly, if the knife incident had not happened and you made it up (I'm not saying this though) and a perfectly normal easy child had been sent to Department of Juvenile Justice as a result, the kid that came out would not be a easy child and would not be mentally healthy. And we all know that the kid that went to Department of Juvenile Justice at 14 was not a easy child and the attack DID happen. So what comes out - not good.

Basics - this kid had prior mental health issues. He attacked you. He needed help that you couldn't provide and you turned to the system for help. The system failed you both. The PO and GAL noted something skew-whiff between you and difficult child and dug further, found extended family who claimed you were the problem, difficult child just needed a normal family. And they followed that (false) trail, made wrong assumptions and from there, were gunning for you as the source of problems. They were acting on the basis of what they observed plus what they were told. More time wasted.

You are now in a lose-lose situation. If you could go back in time and change what you did - I don't think you could have prevented any of this. But if difficult child gets placed with your family, it will look like the situation Step is in with her husband's kids - too much damage was done while he was with his mother. You will get blamed for difficult child's being out of control. Blame gets in the way of getting help for difficult child. Frankly, I think he's now beyond help being imposed on him, he needs now to own the problem and then be able to accept help. Sadly, I think he has a long way to go further downhill before he gets to that stage.

Should you be lenient over his recent behaviour? No. I think you would be sending him mixed messages - you get angry with him when he messes up, then you go all mother tiger and want to protect him (from the consequences of his own actions). So he gets the message that he can do what he likes, you will yell a bit, then you will forget about it and let bygones be bygones. But the message you send him is confusing. Go back and read this entire thread, you might see what I mean.

Mind you, what you are doing is natural and normal. We do this, as mothers. But what we need to do when it gets this bad, is take a step back, divorce our emotions from it all (not easy) then look at the situation as impartially as possible.

difficult child has come home several times in recent months and each time, has fouled up within days. He's been sent home into your care, which I feel is idiotic of the justice system given that the original offence was an attack on you with a weapon. He fouls up, goes back inside for a while, is sent home again into your care (with minimal notice). You said then, you expected him to help with the garage sale. He didn't. You've set rules - he breaks them. The PO sets rules - difficult child breaks them. Big time. Then when difficult child wants to go out, he goes. When he wants to get back into the house, he does. Even after you think you've got the place locked down. difficult child then removes whatever he wants from your person while you're sleeping, by cutting the stuff out of your clothing. He has no conscience if it stands between him and what he wants. When it gets to that stage, you cannot allow leniency to let him continue to deteriorate.

The justice system is doing nothing for his mental health. Your only chance is to get PO on side as far as he can, as far as the system will allow. And stop trying to force more. We have to take what we can get and accept it, even if it is not what we know we need. Because it is still better than him on the streets at risk of being murdered or committing murder.

PO is now seeing that there is a big problem. As for the problems between you and difficult child - what about the problems between difficult child and society in general? What difficult child is doing, is antisocial, is criminal, is just plain wrong and has nothing to do with his relationship with his mother. Also with the cigarette burns - it shows serious mental health issues. "A cry for attention" is so simplistic. I get so angry with people who only see this as someone doing it out of bravado - if that were the case, the burns would be far more visible. But most of them are only able to be seen when he undresses, so this is not a publicity stunt. It is as if difficult child is tying to communicate, " I DO have mental health issues!"

Is there any way he can be asked to take off his shirt in court?

All this comes down to difficult child's need for mental health care, a need which frankly I don't think is going to be met. From there, we now have a need for you to be safe, and if this continues, you will not be safe. When difficult child cut the stuff out of your pockets, he did it coolly, calmly and with determination. It was not during a rage or on impulse. He is probably still capable of doing you real damage in a rage (the original knife incident was during a rage, wasn't it?) but now has shown that he can also do serious damage NOT on impulse, but with cool consideration. It's a bad combination.

I'm not saying you need to throw him away. But you do need to back away and insist he not be in your home until he gets treatment. If that makes you look bad, or means he goes to your family, you will have to grit your teeth. If your bro abuses him (and I don't think that will happen, difficult child is too old to be of interest to a pedophile) then difficult child is also just as vulnerable NOW to the same sort of abuse in Department of Juvenile Justice,or on the streets - and hey, it IS happening now. The cigarette burns are just the outward sign of a lot more going on.

My sister was frantic for her difficult child son who ran away to a life of crime and living on the streets, when he was 14. My nephew stole, used drugs, robbed, and was undoubtedly selling his body for drugs. Whenever my sister got him home, she tried to keep him there but the call of the drugs was too strong. She would be frantic to save him from the possibility he could ever prostitute himself, forgetting that he almost certainly already had, and you can't save someone form themselves if they're not ready to be saved.

Even where money is no object, you can't save someone. Look at all the celebrities who get into rehab. Even where rehab is court-ordered. Do they come out clean? Healed? Rarely. In every case, the person has to get to a point where THEY choose to change.

If you back down now, all you are doing is stalling, delaying the inevitable. And the longer it is delayed, the older he will be before he gets it. He may never get it. It is his choice. It hurts. But he is his own person, he is making his own choices. You need to stand firm, because that will actually help him eventually see that there are lines you do not cross.

My nephew didn't work this out until he was about 40. He is in touch with his mother, but distantly. He knows he ruined his life and burned a lot of bridges. But he is still alive and we really didn't think he would be. But it got very, very bad before my sister was forced to say, "Here is the line, and you crossed it." And stick to it. And there was no improvement in him until this happened.

Marg
 

klmno

Active Member
Thank you, Marg! I am already on board with 95% of what you are saying and trying to advocate for that. The only difference is, as a person who did experience sexual abuse from a family member- it is not the same thing. It is much more damaging and mind-boggling to be abused by a family member or know that a family member allowed it, even by negligence, than it is to be abused by a stranger or acquaintance.

Other than that, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Thank you for your support!
 
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