Now he is really gone.

[Nomad]

I too believe it's nature over nurture. Never believed that until I adopted. I'm kinda sorta open to 50/50....but if I was forced to choose one, nature wins.

Our adopted daughter is nothing like "us." It is shocking, she even eats diff. foods and I recall reading a study that children often favor foods their bio moms ate while pregnant.

A good friend adopted a little girl...a few years old. My friend is very intelligent and spiritual. Husband similar with a ph.D. Both happy (at least they were). OMG. She (the child) suffered from depression and mood swings. Later she was diagnosis'd as having a personality disorder and still later, she became an alcoholic. She never wanted to work and struggled terribly holding down any job. When she was in her teens, a psychologist said to find the birth mother and maybe if adopted daughter met her, it would help in some way.

They found her (birth mom) and she was practically an exact copy of their daughter ....depressed, personality disorder, alcoholic and couldn't hold down a job.

Being in a loving, spiritual, well educated, kind home...for all those years had basically no influence whatsoever.

And in our home...our daughter couldn't be a bigger opposite to myself, husband and bio son.

Yes, this sometimes happens with two bio children, but I think moreso with adopted children.

Our environment is important, true. And influential.

But Nature is extremely powerful.

And when mental illness is involved, it's even more complicated.

 

[Copabanana]

They all have the same DNA and parent...but they are all so different in all ways.

Isn't that interesting, that each of them is so different from the others and each like you in essential ways.

I will tell you a secret.

I had a boyfriend many years ago who had an identical twin. It was not a close relationship. It was mainly attraction and convenience. A kind of friendship. They were from another country, a kingdom and their father in the court of a famous king whose name you would recognize.

So, first I was involved with one brother, and then, secretly from the other, a couple of years later, I became involved with the other, more deeply but still not seriously. *These are old, old memories.

Needless to say I knew both men well. Sharing genetic material 100 percent, they looked exactly the same. Except they did not. They were so different that you could easily tell the difference in them, because they were radically different men.

One was minimally educated and drove a taxi. The other one had secured entry into the best graduate school in the country.

One was charming. The other, gruff.

One was manipulative. The other one a straight shooter.

One was elegant and well-dressed, the other indifferent to appearances.

While both from a royal family, one identified as working class, the other acted as if a crown-prince. (Both had equally lost any real or illusory claim on their former high status.)

One was upwardly mobile and avaricious, the other was easy going and tender-hearted.

I had become convinced that they had chosen radically different identities, because their genetics were the same.

I believe the same thing is true of my sister and I and your sons. There is so much choice involved in identity.

Thank you Feeling.

COPA

I am thinking here about the man who had the face transplant. I forget how he lost his face, but a new face was transplanted to him belonging to somebody who was brain dead and dying.

Well, I was fascinated to hear an interview with the surgeon, who said this: Gradually the new face is changing into the face of the recipient...the face that he lost...is being re-generated on the newly acquired face.

My only way to understand this is that our faces are genetically determined, and that genes continue living and acting upon us as long as we live. So his genes were modifying his newly acquired face, in accordance with the genetic template for "face" that continued to operate in the man.

Now on the face of things, this would seem to argue against my position, about the primacy of environment. But I do not think so. Genes always operate in an environment. In interaction with the environment. So even the same set of genes will be different in a different environment. Time, place, parents, circumstances, culture all create different environments.

In twin studies there is remarkable confluence in aptitudes, preferences, and prejudices of identical twins separated at birth. But there are differences too. The differences are what fascinate me. As do the differences between myself and my sister.

M said yesterday: You are nothing like your sister. Not one thing is even similar.

I had said to him, for the one millionth time: Why do you think she did that, turn against my mother at the end? (I think this is about the closest I have come to evil in my whole life. I know that my sister has her own story about the whys. But I just cannot wrap my brain around it.)

So M answered what he answered, what in its essence, let it go. Think about the future. It doesn't matter anymore. Let it go.

There we are. At the tail end of my life, I have arrived at a place where there is nothing at all that links me to my biology. In the sense of kin.

And I am thinking of our adopted children here. How it must feel to them, to never ever have had somebody of their blood near them. My son insists it does not matter. That it never mattered. I do not believe him.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

Yes, DNA is a component, but I feel, to a lesser degree. People are always going well beyond their capabilities or limitations.

Feeling, having lived your life so affected by the ravages of Schizophrenia, a genetic predisposition, your hope and belief in the potential for change, I find absolutely remarkable and admirable.

I believe so much in the power of deciding. I was not an ambitious person. I was not exceptional in any way. I created myself. Each decision led to the next one. And the next.

I have said over and over again any initiative I ever had came from my sense of inferiority, rather than anything intrinsic in me. I was helped by accidents of life. The accident of living in the area in the world that has been the greatest engine of cultural change, or among them.

My task here is to find another kind of confidence in myself, that comes from security and hope and love. Not from want and raw desire. From that place I can better support my son and find understanding. (I just wish he did not lie so much.)

Thank you.

COPA

 

[Feeling Sad]

Wow, you have led an exciting life. Royal twins from a palace in a kingdom...wow! I can't even come close...wow!

Your son is lucky to have you. You have been able to impart knowledge from such a well-traveled, educated, and experienced perspective. You were surely able to give him much, much more than his 'biological' mother. Kudos.

Take care, dear friend.

 

[Copabanana]

Royal twins from a palace in a kingdom...wow!

I always thought it was kind of a kinky thing. So I asked my psychiatrist 35 years ago. He said it might be slightly kinky of the second twin, but not by me. They were so different, it was like they were two cousins, maybe, but not closer than that.

You were surely able to give him much, much more than his 'biological' mother.

Well, she was dying 25 years ago, of AIDS, the poor thing.

There is so much sadness in life. It is such a blessing to find some happiness and self-esteem, amidst this minefield. I guess that is why we fight so hard for our kids, one of the reasons.

The thing about my son, is that like me he was exposed to a rich environment. So much of that environment, he has drawn on to define himself. He is interested in so much. The languages. The openness to diversity. Kindness.

These four years apart from me, we needed. He may not have achieved much, but he did achieve some distance, and self-definition. Resilience and resourcefulness. I have to look on the bright side.

Now I feel I do need to pitch in and help him get stable. I will search for a way to do that. Thank you.

COPA

 

[A dad]

Can I ask something about the renting in USA probably how do young adults that just got out of their parents house get to have a rented apartment if they have no prior history and a good chance to not win a lot for a few years?

 

[AppleCori]

Adad,

With a stable job and a (even short) work history, most places will rent to a young person, even without a co-signer. I have three adult kids and have never co-signed anything at all. My adult daughters' first apartment was at college as Resident Assistants. When they went off-campus, they and a friend got a regular apartment together with no problems. They had to pay a deposit as well as first months rent. They all worked and went to college. In many college towns, they love to rent to college students.

My step-son has rented from people who have a room to rent out in their house for very little money. Also, in the town he is in, there are a bunch of old, large houses that have been subdivided into small apartments that are cheap and easy to get into, even with a spotty rental history. He has lived in those. They usually don't do any background checks. The utilities are sometimes included in the rent and divided equally among the residents.

 

[AppleCori]

I forgot about my bio-dad's adopted daughter.

Make that six siblings that have never lived on their own, as a 'normal' self-supporting, rent-paying, utility-paying, bill-paying, taking-care-of-their-business, adult.

I don't know what the ratio is between nature and nurture (and since nurture didn't happen very well with most of the step-siblings anyway) but I can say this: after thinking about it, my mom's bio-kids and my bio-dad's bio kids are doing well. My adopted and step-sibs of dubious parentage, not nearly as well. Some are doing OK, many not. Some have one decent parent, some neither.

It is very sad.

My mom always blamed the foster-care system for many of their problems. Not sure if the outcome would have been different or not.

 

[Feeling Sad]

Adad, it depends on the area and the competition. Yes, it is easier in college towns. People do like to rent to college students who show consistency in their studies. But, in larger towns they run a credit check, job record, and want references.

I have had students with all types of disabilities except totally blind or deaf. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), ED, bipolar, autism, schitzophrenia, and others make it more difficult for kids to "launch". They need help in life skills or need to address their mental health issues to become stable enough to go to college or get a job and keep it. It is done all the time.

I rented an apartment for my son when he returned from running off. He was just starting schizophrenia, i see in retrospect. It was in a bad area, but he said that he could afford the rent. After 4 or 5 months of me paying and he never letting us through the lock entrance, going to college, working, or seeing friends, he moved back home. I set up no rules or expectations. Big mistake...I was afraid that he would run off again.

My son never went to doctor and refuses to get SSI. Parents who have children who are identified have it much, much easier. At work...

 

[BusynMember]

My mom always blamed the foster-care system for many of their problems. Not sure if the outcome would have been different or not.

The foster care system and orphanage life are horrible for a developing infant/child. I think your mom is partly right. But then genetics, whether or not the child was exposed to toxins in utero, and other things come into play.

As for the schizophrenic son, FS, it hurts my heart. He is not like that on purpose. He has such a horrible mental illness. But you do have to take care of yourself and your other children. I hope things get better...heck, I hope our country finally does better for the truly mentally ill.

 

[Copabanana]

Can I ask something about the renting in USA

Hi A dad.

What I did and it is the same still is this: You start out renting in college towns where there is more flexibility/or in more questionable neighborhoods where the range of available tenants most of them may have borderline incomes or histories.

There may be several people living together. One may have better credit, and they pool incomes. The landlords may want to rent to them because they can charge higher rents. This is the trade off. Higher income from rents can compensate for greater risk, just as it does in the financial markets.

Where I live now (the small city) has an old downtown and there are old houses that surround it. You will find this is where many poorer people live, those on SSI, sex offenders, people with drug histories, etc. Lucky for them, it is quite central and attractive. You can walk to stores, banks and the library.

One thing I love about CD is finding out how things are, how people are in another place.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

I asked M tonight if my son had called him. He said yes. Today or yesterday? Both days, M answered.

My son was waiting at the house where M has been working and goes to pick up his tools. For several days he has been doing another job. He picks up his tools and brings them back.

My son was there last night, with a sleeping bag, outside. M let him in last night. To sleep inside. And then in the morning he met my son there, and locked the door as he left. M did not mention it to me.

On Monday morning M had told my son he needed to leave. That he could no longer stay there. My son had received his SSI check which was the pretext for his coming to us in the first place. A lack of money.

Now, there is money. Now there is choice. Now there are every manner of alternative, except his preferred one which is to make somebody else, namely me, responsible.

M says he did not have the will or energy to fight him yesterday or today. I still wish he had told me. I guess he did not have the will to fight me either. My son is triangulating and it is working.

I said to M just now: I will tell him that if he continues to come on the property I will file a restraining order (I doubt if I have the grounds.)

M answered: Are you going to handle this or am I?

I answered: There are neighbors who are affected. Over and above our interests, there are neighbors, good neighbors who do not deserve this. M said my son looked completely straggly. Unshaven. He was bad enough before with burnt holes in his clothes, that hung on him like rags. Now walking around with a sleeping bag.

When he has the money to pay rent, but chooses not to. I am hating my son right now for what he does, does to me. To M.

This is like what Cedar says, turning themselves into beggars, more and more abject, so as to make themselves low enough so that we will help them.

I am horrified. Our children force us to become who we are not. They force our hand. I hate this.

This is strategic on my son's part. But the reality, is he has no one else now who he trusts to go to. For some reason he does not want to get his own apartment. If he fears again to couch surf with marginal people, I do not blame him. He has run into or made problems over and over again. There is the shelter, and the mission--I know he will say there is no space. Maybe there is not.

I hate my life when it becomes this. I really do. It blots out all pleasure, security and peace. Why did I ask M? I guess for the same reason that he did not tell me.

M will handle it tomorrow. I hope.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

Genes always operate in an environment. In interaction with the environment. So even the same set of genes will be different in a different environment. Time, place, parents, circumstances, culture all create different environments.

I forgot the most important variable. Personal choice.

We operate on our genes. We interact with them. There is always an interaction between our identities, which we develop and continue to develop throughout ourselves and that which is to some extent but not all genetically given, intelligence and temperament. We are conscious beings. We can respond to our biology. And we do. This is what defines us.

It is like the study of history, the philosophy of history. It all has to do with point of view. And whether or not we exercise it.

COPA

 

[Feeling Sad]

Your son has gone to a psychologist in the past, right?

Maybe he could get a case management team to help him. They would help him find housing or a job. They are free. Advice would be coming from someone else, not you.

I do not feel that they purposely turn themselves into beggars for pity. I do not feel that you stayed in bed on purpose.

You both need space to heal. He needs to find a place that is out if your town. He needs guidance to achieve this goal.

Does his SSI check give him enough funds for an apartment? Often, it is just enough for a room. He needs help applying for a place, as well as, writing a resume and applying for a job.

Lastly, he needs counseling to 'quiet' his unwarranted fears of conspiracies, so that he may have a better chance to succeed in these goals. Notice, I did not say eradicate, but rather 'quiet'.

You need each other, but you need your space.

No, you would not qualify for a restraining order. An eviction would take months. Do not threaten something that you cannot follow through on.

Write him a letter outlining his goals. This is way to difficult to place upon M's shoulders. Have M. give it to him. Love your son, but from a distance. They seem to take advice better from others who are not their parents. This is where the case management team would come into play.

Again, I am speaking from my perspective, warped as it may be.

Copa, you need to care for yourself and live freely. You need to heal and breathe. He needs to see the strong Copa again. He will then know that he, too, may succeed.

Sending out positive thoughts and strength to my warrior sister.

 

[Copabanana]

Maybe he could get a case management team to help him. They would help him find housing or a job.

He has been connected to adult services and case management in 3 different counties that I know of. He refuses to stay engaged. I brought him to the Department of Rehabilitation. He was indifferent. The very nice worker brought up the possibility that he volunteer at the zoo here. That was almost a year ago. He has never gone back.

He did say a couple of weeks ago that that possibility sounded like it could be fun.

He needs to find a place that is out if your town.

For a while he was in the county next to mine. They were going to give him a subsidized apartment. He was at the top of the list. He trashed the idea because there were meth addicts in the complex.

I will sit down with him and talk to him about his options. What he wants to do. I am sure what he wants to do is either live with me, or live under my umbrella.

Does his SSI check give him enough funds for an apartment?

He gets just over 900 a month. In my town the rents are very cheap. He could get his own apartment for 375 or 400. That would leave enough for food, and other expenses. The county next to mine is more expensive, but not very expensive.

He needs help applying for a place, as well as, writing a resume and applying for a job.

He has had help writing a resume, several times. Who knows where it is? He is not motivated to work or to apply for a job. He resists everything that he does not want. He worked for his friend because it was delivered to him on a tray, the opportunity and a condition of living in that situation.

He needs to see the strong Copa again. He will then know that he, too, may succeed.

If he stays here in my town, in the way that he is living, I will leave here, as soon as my obligations are finished. I will go cross country.

I will not enable him to undermine me and my own stability. I believe that is why M did not tell me. The minute I feel that he is near me, around me, threatening to come here, I lose my power.

I am not afraid of him. He is toxic to me. That is the truth. It is a horrible thing to say.

He is my kryptonite. Does that fit? Does kryptonite cause one to lose their power or is it the opposite?

Once I wrote to somebody "it was my battle of waterloo" as in a Napoleonic victory and they kindly wrote back that Waterloo was the one battle that Napoleon lost.

My son knows what he wants: He wants a free and secure place to stay. He does not want to work. He does not want one other responsibility.

Thank you Feeling. I am very discouraged and frightened.

Feeling, I hope you are well. Go to bed. I am going right now.

COPA

 

[Feeling Sad]

Call Social Services in the morning. Also, Cal jobs is very helpful in writing resumes and helping with placement and interviews. He should contact them.

Speak to a Social Worker. Ask about a Case Management Team. They will get the ball rolling... They will have ideas and resources that he can utilize. They will help you feel better, as well. It is better for you both if he does not live with you or at your other house.

You will feel better talking to someone.

You are giving him 'tools' so that you may feel more at peace. You need to protect yourself from further stress. You need to heal.

It is up to him to implement the stategies. They will help and 'nudge' him. You can speak to them to get updates.

You are very fortunate that you can guide your son, but only do it from a distance and/or through a third party.

I would give anything to be able to help my son...

I heard a quote something like, "Practice the discipline of gratefulness". No matter how bad life gets, look for things that you can be grateful for.

Take your Benadryl...

 

[Feeling Sad]

You have done everything that you possibly can. It is on him. Give him the phone numbers and the rest is up to him.

 

[Hopeful97]

Copa,

I am not sure if I mentioned and if so sorry for repeating myself www.nami.org may be a place you can turn to for you and they may be able to help your son. My d c won't listen to anything I say but this organization has been a great resource and help for me.
Praying peace for you, sister!
HUGE HUGS,
Hopeful

 

[TerryJ2]

Oh, Copa, how sad. I know exactly what you're going through.
And yes, the fact that he's starting to "get it" means that he can get it, and he IS making choices, but very, very bad ones.
My son was and is like that, too. You can talk and talk, but until you lock that door, he doesn't get it.

As the others have pointed out, as well, the mentally ill need boundaries and someone else to stay strong. Everyone needs to follow logical rules--for instance, stop at a red light. There is a reason for that.

I have no suggestions. Just hugs.

Ooops, just saw this--yes, NAMI is a great group. I have given their ph #'s to my son twice now. No action on his part, of course.

 

[TerryJ2]

Love this: I think the discussion here about "gray" areas is one of the key issues we have to deal with as parents of DCs, and one of the most exhausting. If we could just decide and let that be it, finito, wouldn't that be liberating for us?