-Passive aggressive mean-ness towards others...is this really part of his diagnoses??

[PlainJane]

Some days (many days) I feel like difficult child isn't difficult child, that he's just a mean kid!! I feel so bad thinking that but I just don't understand why he is so mean! He's not the kind of kid that would trip someone or throw a rock at someone...he uses his words and not even name calling, just this weird passive aggressive mean-ness, is the best way to describe it.
fyi he's 5 1/2 now, my siggy needs updating I think.

Like yesterday little brother (3 y/o) was pointing our the window saying "look at the the yellow flowers M!" and little brother was *so* excited to point out the yellow flowers to his older brother. And M (difficult child) says "oh yeah look at the weeds"...so little brother says upset "no..." then says again "look at the yellow flowers M!" and M says "look at the weeds. " And little brother gets upset....And I know that hubby and I are supposed to understand that this is some how part of his diagnoses...but dear god I just can't bring myself to accept that this mean spirit is part of it.
The other stuff I get, but this part where he goes out of his way to just fight or be mean, how is that part of any diagnoses?

difficult child does this to everyone, a lot. I get so anxious taking him out in public or having him around other kids, because of this need to passively upset people. Another example, he is playing with a girl that says "look at my new shoes!" (and they are pink sneakers) M waits a minute then says "Your shoes look old. You should get new ones"....oh my god, and these "comments" are frequent enough that I just can't nagivate them properly with other parents, and people stop letting their kids play with him.

In a group he naturally falls in with the bullies and mean kids that the nice kids don't want to be around. The nice kids don't stick around him for long because of this attitude. And I don't like the kids he ends up talking with, because they are the ones that are throwing rocks at others for fin and calling names. But they seem to be the only ones that will hang around and put up with his comments without getting hurt by them.

He started clonidine 0.1 mg about a month ago and his dose was just increased tonight to 1 1/2 pills, 0.15 mg, because he is waking up at night. He's not as explosive, but the medication hasn't touched this passive-aggressive streak...its like he likes upsetting people. He not stating facts, its not like the girls shoes looked old, he just says this to do...I don't know what!! But it has me and my husband at our wits end.

I just needed to vent. How is this part of his diagnoses??!? I have met other kids on the spectrum that don't have this need to hurt others so passively. The doctor thinks it might be a compulsive thing...of all the compulsions, why is his to fight and say hurtful things??! What kind of a compulsion is that?

How the heck do we address it? When ever we try to explain it the the doctor she thinks its a compulsion, in otherwords its not going away. Well even if it is a compulsion (to be mean) it comes off as a though he's a very cruel child and it is severly impacting our home life and school. Though he is not loud or disruptive at school or a disciline problem, he's quiet about the behavoir, is very under the radar, so the teachers are "working with him" as they put it, but they are not that concerned because he's not the kid that is yelling out in class or hitting people. Its an easy behavior to get swept under the carpet in a class full of kids, especially when some of them are more of an in your face kind of problem, know what I mean?

Does anyone have any advice, experience, anything!?!?! Please!!

 

[InsaneCdn]

It isn't deliberate. REALLY.

To me... this sounds so totally Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)/Aspie... black-and-white, literal thinking.
Those yellow flowers cannot be flowers, because they are weeds.
One item can't fit two rules.
ESPECIALLY at this age.

Is this kid adopted? (your signature doens't show)
If so... you may not have any Aspie trait experience.
Either way... open your eyes and ears, and "see" the world through Aspie eyes.
Learn to speak Aspergian. (if you don't know what that is, go read Look Me In The Eye by John Elder Robinson )
THEN you will be able to help him interpret the Nypical world (another John Elder term...)

 

[PlainJane]

No he's not adopted. I can understand and appreciate some of his aspie traits because hubby and I can see it in each other. But this isn't the same as the black and white thinking. BOth husband and I see that difference between when he is "correcting". But the shoe example, its not that the shoes looked old, or that he would have ever noticed the shoes, but once the little girl proudly exclaimed her shoes were new, he waited a minute....then said like it wa a spontaneous thought that her shoes look old. Like now he knew how to hurt her feelings a lot worse than just calling her a poop head.

We have trouble explaining it to the doctor and he doesn;t do it around her. He is very much aware of and in control of this behavoir, and can stop it infront of the right people, UNLIKE his other aspie traits that are displayed around everyone.

This 100% appears to hubby and I as intentional, and we have watched him stopped nid sentence if he realizes someone that he is hiding the behavoir from is listening. The sneekiness is scary. This just doesn;t seem like an aspie trait to hubby or I. We really need to record it for the doctor, but its hard to know exactly when he will do it, and often its done quietly which means a close but hidden camera. He will not do this behavoir in front of the camera. He has told us that he will not let the doctor know he does this.

 

[BusynMember]

Aspies are incredibly literal and have poor to no social skills. in my opinion the comment about the weeds was not mean, but part of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). He, being literal, told his brother they were weeds because they are. He told the girl her shoes were old because they are. This is a part of Aspergers. It isn't his fault and he isn't mean. He's autistic. He doesn't understand what is socially appropriate and he isn't going to until he is older and has gotten a lot more help. Don't be angry...honest Aspies are not conniving and manipulative. They normally don't have the social skills to understand how to do that well. Of course, I don't know your boy...but it sounds pretty Aspie to me.

Good luck!

 

[PlainJane]

Thank you, but the girls shoes weren't old, they were brand new!! It could have been a child saying they like hte color pink/blue/green etc...doesn't matter if it difficult child favorite color! He will wait a minute, actually he does a quick look see to make sure no one is listening to him and I have to be "engrossed" in a conversation or "reading a book" like I have to be ovbiously not paying attention, then he will say [the kids favorite color] is ugly. BUT if I am looking right at him or someone else that he is hiding the behvoir from like the other child's parent is watching I can see the wheels turning in his head, and he just moves on from it without the hurtful comment.

His aspie behavior, stating the facts, he just says those, he's not hiding it, or aware that its wrong. But this other behavoir, he controls it and keeps it under the radar.

 

[PlainJane]

I don't mean to sound so negative but this behavoir is different from the aspie-ness. Hubby and are worried, its not violent or distructive, but why would he do it? We try to ignore it, but we have to be like hawks watching him, and eavesdropping so he doesn't hurt people's feelings. And if the other child tries to tell on him, he denies he said anything of the sort (and I've had plenty of times where I've heard the comment and I know he's lying about not saying it). He's so calm about it. "no I didn;t say that, she's lying" ...when HE'S lying...

 

[BusynMember]

Ok, I read it over. If he is hanging around ANY group of kids, bullies or nice kids, that doesn't sound Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) to me. Most young Aspies try to be friendly, but nobody wants them, not the bullies, not the nice kids, not the nerds. They are too inappropriate. They don't normally have groups of friends. It could be that he was diagnosed wrong and has other issues. Who diagnosed him? What kind of professional? What made him say this kid is an Aspie? Do you think he has Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)? Did you see a pediatric neurologist (this is a professional I would NOT trust to diagnose any sort of autism) or a NeuroPsychologist (I would trust HIM to diagnose autism). I'm not sure this NP got it nailed right.

There is no pill for passive aggression.

Did this boy, by any chance, have a rather chaotic infancy and toddlerhood? Divorce? Many changes? Different caregivers? New husband? In a way, he sounds like he is attachment disordered which has many Aspie traits, but is not related to autism in any way. Is your husband his bio. father? Does he have any biological siblings? Stepsiblings?

 

[greenrene]

I don't have any answers or advice, but I do understand exactly what you're talking about. My difficult child is now 15, and she has ALWAYS been mean like that. No rhyme or reason, just mean-spirited. It's exhausting and upsetting, I know.

 

[PlainJane]

He sees a pedicatric behavoirist, but he has seen a pediatrician neurologist for ticks (which they rules as complusions, not ticks). He was diagnosed at 2 by a differnet doctor that we no longer see, and has since been re evaluated by our current doctor who has been seeing him since he was 3, and the doctor did say that he doesn't score to be officially diagnosed as on the spectrum...but that he needs services so the label not's important.
He is VERY outgoing and talkative. He did have to be taught through therapy how to start and hold a conversartion, and he spent much of his early years only echoing what we said. He tends to fall in with the bullies and it off putting to the quier more reserved kids. He does not read social ques well but is getting better. He talks AT people, we see this and his teachers. If he does get in troubel which is rare he will laugh while he is being repremanded, and also laughs went others get annoyed. He seems to understand and sympathize with others is they fall or get hurt. He finds their anger amusing.

husband and I have been together since we were teens. We got married and had kids, I was 25 when I had him. Nothing tramatic about our life. Very plain, calm. husband and I are the more reserve type for the most part. no alcohol or drug use. We do both have a family history of mentall illness biopolar, and borderline personality disorder, possible narcissistic PD.

difficult child was a very quiet almost non responsive baby. Never cried to be changed or fed. I was home with him, he was my only so he was still held a lot! I tried to boyfriend but wasn't successful. He did have at about 3 months a very flat head from that back to sleep thing (i did not follow that with my second son because difficult child head was so flat) He had to have a CT to make sure everything was ok.

At about 6-7 months he stopped being quiet and became a screamer. I stopped going out because he screamed everywhere. He wouldnt sit in a stroller, we couldnt go to a family restuarnt, we just stayed home, so all his fits (hours and hour of melt downs) wouldnt be in public. We were alone all the time. In a small apartment, it was very depressing, but the fits came first or we would have gone out more often.And its like he's been angry every since...

The clonidine has helped with the explosive anger, but this passive aggressiveness has gotten worse.

 

[PlainJane]

greenrene,

Mean spirited, thats the best way to put it. I just can't figure out why...I would give anything to know why and be able to fix it. It painful to watch my child be like this.

 

[BusynMember]

Ok, well, I do see why he was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), but he has traits that aren't Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) too. The meanness is NOT Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). You say you have personality disorders and bipolar in the family. Who knows what may have fallen into his mix? Usually kids have more than one diagnosis. I have never met a mean Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) child, but maybe there are some, but it sounds more to me (a layperson mom) like maybe a very young developing personality problem that needs perhaps a different type of therapy rather than behavioral because that is not working (and doesn't usually work with our differently wired kids).

Actually, I think your son's diagnosis DOES matter because Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) interventions are different from interventions for other disorders. All kids do not benefit from the same interventions. You may want to take him to a neuropsychologist for an update. Two years old is a long time ago.

I wish you luck. I think you have a complicated kiddo with a complicated DNA. I hope you can find somebody who gels with him so that you and your husband and son can get help and peace of mind.

I would want a second opinion on the ticks to see if he maybe has Tourettes.

 

[PlainJane]

Thank you midwest mom. Hubby and I have been thinking this is a early emerging personality disorder as well. The doctor has dismissed that. It does seem that we will be looking for other opinions soon, before this problem becomes bigger.

 

[Dixies_fire]

Good luck plain jane. That does sound like a hurtful behavior to watch.