Peace among the storm

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by newstart, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    I have been attending a new Church and listening with my entire heart for answers on how I need to move forward with my troubled 35 year old daughter and get her off my financial breast. This week I have heard nothing but excuses from her about her financial irresponsibility and I have not said one word. Confronting her while she is manic is a losing battle and then she rages. I have just listened and looked at her but not said one word. This is different for me especially since I yelled at her like an out of control maniac.
    I am working on forgiving myself for screaming at the top of my lungs over the horrible stupid things she has done. I know she knows better.
    I am at a stand still about her habitual lies. If I confront them, we would not have any relationship at all, and she would defend each lie even though I can show her the truth is writting. I just listen and decide if it is a lie or not and just not answer. It is nothing but chatter noise. Maybe a bit of truth here and there but most of it is lies and nonsense to keep me confused and in turmoil. By not calling her on her lies, for now it keeps the peace but am I even helping her or me by choosing to just listen?? The lies actually hurt my soul. They are so stupid and senseless and why would anyone bother making that kind of noise on a regular basis, she knows that I am intune. I was once told that if I take everything she says as a lie and go about my day and just know that is what she does then it can be doable but in reality I hate it. I want to scream at the top of my lungs. I feel she is stealing my reality.

    I really have no idea how to handle the lies. A few years ago I would yell at her to stop the F lies. When we were in therapy and I told the therapist I could not stand the lies, the therapist looked at my daughter and told her that because she lied, it made her invisible.

    The frustration I feel and the waste I feel is awful. Why did we spend all that money on her private college or why did I spend all that money and time on therapy that never lead to anywhere. Years and years of therapy sometimes 3 times a week and still she is lying and stealing and living with a man that is so much like her.

    All the Church days and Church camps and Church retreats and all the money spent to guide her into a fruitful life is wasted..

    The fancy spa she opened is about to end.

    I have to get completely untied from her financially. Completely. If she goes homeless, she knows about shelters and she knows how to get food. For most of her growing up life we did volunteer work in food pantries and homeless shelters. She knows how people end up there, she knows what to do to keep herself out of there. NOT MY PROBLEM ANYMORE. 2018 is the year of positive changes moving forward and quit lugging a deadbeat daughter around.

    There were a few times that we had a good time when we traveled together. Now she is moody, stays on her phone or is in the middle of a major on going crisis with her toxic boyfriend. The thought of traveling with her is not on my list. Even though my mom wants to see both of us for a ST Patricks day celebration this March. UGH.

    Tomorrow I have to deal with her in person. I am going to align myself with God and center myself though meditation. I will keep myself centered in God's holy peace and lean into that hard. With that peace all around me I will not be damaged or used and the lies she will tell me will fly right off of me and not harm my spirit. I will remember that it is HER journey and not mine. I will remember that because I want great things for her, she may not want that for her and I need to be ok with that. I will remember that she is a grown adult woman, NOT this little girl that I sometimes see in her, but a grown woman almost 36 close to 40 for God's Sake.
     
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  2. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    The above quotes are what I am responding to newstart.......for the reasons you stated, I would encourage you to try something different where you are not subjected to her lies. Being lied to is horrific. It may keep the peace for you to simply listen, but geez, at what cost to you? There is no cost to your daughter, YOU are absorbing all of the negatives, all of the hurts. I suggest you stop it.

    My codependency therapist told me that I "absorbed the deficiencies of others." That was my codependent solution (which gratefully I've let go of!) It sounds as if it is yours too. Don't do it. If she's manic then tell her that her mania is debilitating for you (or whatever word works for you) you can't/won't do it anymore. Protect yourself. Take care of yourself. You don't have to make a scene about it, simply say "I am no longer going to listen to untruths. If you say anything that I believe is not the truth, I am not going to debate it with you, I will simply end the conversation or I will leave." Or more simply, "I need to take care of myself around your mania, it is unhealthy for me." If you begin to set boundaries around the behaviors that you are not willing to tolerate, she is smart, she will likely discontinue the behavior. My daughter did, each and every time.

    My guess is the last line is likely correct, "to keep you confused and in turmoil." This is not a relationship that is healthy for you. I know how hard it is, but, it really sounds as if it would be much better for you if you limited your time with your daughter to the barest of minimums.

    You're teaching her that her lies are ok. You're teaching her she doesn't have to respect you because she can pull the wool over your eyes continually. I would guess that she knows she's lying.

    We become so accustomed to bizarre, destructive, disastrous, non sensical, lying, manipulative behavior, we allow it......and in the allowing of it, we take it in and send the message that it is OK for them to continue. It is NOT OK. Do not allow it.

    Remember, people treat us exactly as we allow them to.

    Instead of YOU bending reality and yourself to accommodate your daughter's behaviors, figure out what you're willing to put up with and what you're not and communicate it clearly to your daughter. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you should tolerate lying.

    I know how tough this is, I've been there too. Take your power back newstart. Your daughter is running amok with lying, don't allow it..... for your sake..... AND for hers too.
     
  3. HALO527

    HALO527 New Member

    I so feel for you! I had a cousin who had a young son with similar issues. When she couldn't deal with her son, she locked herself in a different room. You Do NOT have to stand there and listen to the lies and not respond. Just go into a different room. At some point your daughter (who sounds very manipulative by the way) will get the point that it won't matter what she says. It's also time to push the baby bird out of the nest. You've done your job and it sounds like you have done alot to help your child. The rest is up to her now. She needs to get help for her problems, and to create her own life. And it's time for you to have a peaceful life of your own. The best year that my husband and I had was when we told our difficult child to leave. He did manage to survive on his own, even with his problems. He came back and we thought he had changed, but he hadnt. And he's created misery for us once again. I love my child, but I've done my job, and now he needs to deal with whatever he's going to create for himself. So does your daughter. Hope it works out for you ♡
     
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  4. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    newstart, I just read this on The National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder. I hope it is helpful.

    Do Not Protect Family Members From The Natural Consequences Of Their Actions. Allow Them To Learn About Reality. Bumping Into A Few Walls Is Usually Necessary.
    People with Borderline (BPD) can engage in dangerous, harmful, and costly behaviors. The emotional and financial toll to the individual and the family can be tremendous. Nonetheless, family members may sometimes go to great lengths to give in to the individual’s wishes, undo the damage, or protect everyone from embarrassment. The results of these protective ways are complex. First and foremost, the troublesome behavior is likely to persist because it has cost no price or has brought the individual some kind of reward. Second, the family members are likely to become enraged because they resent having sacrificed integrity, money, and good will in their efforts to be protective. In this case, tensions in the home mount even though the hope of the protective measures was to prevent tension. Meanwhile, the anger may be rewarding on some level to the individual because it makes her the focus of attention, even if that attention is negative. Third, the individual may begin to show these behaviors outside of the family and face greater harm and loss in the real world than she would have faced in the family setting. Thus, the attempt to protect leaves the individual unprepared for the real world. Some examples will illustrate the point.

    • A daughter stuffs a handful of pills in her mouth in her mother’s presence. The mother puts her hand into the daughter’s mouth to sweep out the pills. It is reasonable to prevent medical harm in this way. The mother then considers calling an ambulance because she can see that the daughter is suicidal and at risk of harming herself. However, this option would have some very negative consequences. The daughter and the family would face the embarrassment of having an ambulance in front of the house. The daughter does not wish to go to the hospital and would become enraged and out of control if the mother called the ambulance. A mother in this situation would be strongly tempted not to call the ambulance in order to avoid the daughter’s wrath and to preserve the family’s image in the neighborhood. She might rationalize the decision by convincing herself that the daughter is not in fact in immediate danger. The primary problem with that choice is that it keeps the daughter from attaining much needed help at a point when she has been and could still be suicidal. The mother would be aiding the daughter in denial of the problem. Medical expertise is needed to determine whether the daughter is at risk of harming herself. If the daughter’s dramatic gesture has not been given sufficient attention, she would be likely to escalate. As she escalates, she may make an even more dramatic gesture and face greater physical harm. Furthermore, if an ambulance were not called for fear of incurring her wrath, she would receive the message that she can control others by threatening to become enraged
    • A 25-year old woman steals money from her family members while she is living with them. The family members express great anger at her and sometimes threaten to ask her to move out, but they never take any real action. When she asks to borrow money, they give the loan despite the fact that she never pays back such loans. They fear that if they do not lend the money, she may steal it from someone outside the family, thus leading to legal trouble for her and humiliation for everyone else involved. In this case, the family has taught the daughter that she can get away with stealing. She has essentially blackmailed them. They give her what she wants because they are living with fear. The daughter’s behavior is very likely to persist as long as no limits are set on it. The family could cease to protect her by insisting that she move out or by stopping the loans. If she does steal from someone outside the family and faces legal consequences, this may prove to be a valuable lesson about reality. Legal consequences may influence her to change and subsequently function better outside the family.
    • A 20-year old woman who has had multiple psychiatric hospitalizations recently and has been unable to hold down any employment decides that she wants to return to college full time. She asks her parents to help pay tuition. The parents who watch their daughter spend most of her day in bed are skeptical that she will be able to remain in school for an entire semester and pass her courses. The tuition payments represent great financial hardship for them. Nonetheless, they agree to support the plan because they do not want to believe she is as dysfunctional as she behaves and they know their daughter will become enraged if they do not. They have given a dangerous “You can do it” message. Furthermore, they have demonstrated to her that displays of anger can control her parents’ choices. A more realistic plan would be for the daughter to take one course at a time to prove that she can do it, and then return to school full time only after she has demonstrated the ability to maintain such a commitment despite her emotional troubles. In this plan, she faces a natural consequence for her recent low functioning. The plan calls upon her to take responsibility in order to obtain a privilege she desires.
    Each of the cases illustrates the hazards of being protective when a loved one is making unwise choices or engaging in frankly dangerous behavior. By setting limits on these choices and behaviors, family members can motivate individuals to take on greater responsibility and have appropriate limits within themselves. The decision to set limits is often the hardest decision for family members to make. It involves watching a loved one struggle with frustration and anger. It is important for parents to remember that their job is not to spare their children these feelings but to teach them to live with those feelings as all people need to do.

    Do Not Tolerate Abusive Treatment Such As Tantrums, Threats, Hitting And Spitting. Walk Away And Return To Discuss The Issue Later.
    Frank tantrums are not tolerable. There is a range of ways to set limits on them. A mild gesture would be to walk out of the room to avoid rewarding the tantrum with attention. A more aggressive gesture would be to call an ambulance. Many families fear taking the latter step because they do not want an ambulance in front of their home, or they do not want to incur the wrath of the person having the tantrum. When torn by such feelings, one must consider the opposing issues. Safety may be a concern when someone is violent and out of control. Most people would agree that safety takes priority over privacy. Furthermore, by neglecting to get proper medical attention for out-of-control behavior, one may turn a silent ear to it. This only leads to further escalation. The acting out is a cry for help. If a cry for help is not heard, it only becomes louder.

    Be Cautious About Using Threats And Ultimatums. They Are A Last Resort. Do Not Use Threats And Ultimatums As A Means Of Convincing Others To Change. Give Them Only When You Can And Will Carry Through. Let Others – Including Professionals – Help You Decide When To Give Them.
    When one family member can no longer tolerate another member’s behavior, he or she may reach the point of giving an ultimatum. This means threatening to take action if the other person does not cooperate. For example, when a daughter will not take a shower or get out of bed much of the day, an exasperated parent may want to tell her that she will have to move out if she does not change her ways. The parent may hope that fear will push her to change. At the same time, the parent may not be serious about the threat. When the daughter continues to refuse to cooperate, the parent may back down, proving that the threat was an empty one. When ultimatums are used in this way, they become useless, except to produce some hostility. Thus, people should only give ultimatums when they seriously intend to act on them. In order to be serious about the ultimatum, the person giving it probably has to be at the point where he feels unable to live with the other person’s behavior.
     
  5. Littleboylost

    Littleboylost On the road unwanted to travel

    NS

    I have no words to console you. This is simply a place we as mothers never fathomed we would be.

    One thing I try to do is not to let my sons poor outcome in life minimize my role as a loving parent. I now look back upon the days time and money spent as a tribute to my dedication to be a good parent. Be proud of your good parenting. The rest is on them.
     
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  6. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I just read this. It is so hard to be in a relationship with anyone who won't tell the truth but it is also impossible for you to get her to learn to be honest by challenging her. And also hard to have a relationship with somebody like this.

    Maybe keep in touch less often. You know how she is going to act; that she is not going to behave the way you wish she would. She would probably need tons of hard work and therapy to change. I think she sounds borderline more than bipolar. They have mood swings and are meaner than bipolar. DBT is the therapy of choice if she ever wants to change.

    When you see her, perhaps stop being outraged that she lies. It is not helpful to you to get upset. This is how she is, what she does and you still want her on your life. So accept it in short bursts and make an excuse to leave when you can't take it anymore. "Oh, I left my blood pressure pills at home. Darn! I have to take it! Love you! See you later!"

    RE's post was off the charts great in my opinion, but I do get wanting to keep connected. All these years I so wanted a connection with my sister that I put up with her going no contact over and over again, coming back to say life is better with me in it??? and her dozens of calls on me to the police when I had not done anything wrong. She even called the cops in my new state when I moved. This is not normal at all, but I loved her. I wanted to believe it would be different each time. Although I finally realize she feels she behaved appropriately when she called the cops so many times just over my writing her an email she didn't like etc. (they don't ever think they are wrong) and I ended it, I don't know that I ever could have ended it with a child. I get it. When you love somebody you keep trying. Even when your relationship is controlled in abusive ways by the other.

    As long as it does not physically, emotionally or financially hurt you, do what you can. But don't do more than you can tolerate. And accept, like I finally did, that she can't offer you the loving abuse free relationship that you long to have. They are who they are and you will never get them to admit that they are wrong. It is part of the sickness, I think.

    Love and hugs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  7. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Recoveringenabler, Thank you again for your wonderful insight and all the postings. I will read and study them tonight. I am an empath so I too absorb the deficiencies of others. I have haulted somewhat my daughter's belligerence towards me, it took me a few years but now I am working on her lies. I have known for years that people will treat us how we allow them to treat us..I am really trying to work on this with my daughter.

    HALO527, I hear you about having the best year of your life when your son was gone. One of the best and most peaceful years I ever had was when my daughter was overseas in college. I then realized how draining and full of constant drama she was. The first year she was gone I had the most prosperious year, my husband and I had a smile on our faces constantly and were laughing. As soon as she came back it was like our lives had a gigantic wet blanket on top of us.

    Littlelostboy, Thank you so much for reminding me that I was/am a good parent. I so appreciate your input.

    SWOT, Thank you for your views. I will not do more than I can tolerate. Thank you for reminding me to stay strong.

    Update. Spent the day with my daughter. I made a great breakfast, organic food and teas, she barely ate and stared into space. I ate and then afterwards I had a chat with her. I did not scream or lose my tone or say anything mean. I went into meditation before hand, I want my words to move her ahead not harm her. She thinks I am going to sell the house she is living in and give her 1/2 of the money. I told her she is a bad renter and I plan to rent the house to a renter that will pay bills. She was planning on just taking the house money and living off of that for a little while, well my plan completely screwed her plan up.. I told her that I am making many changes and moving in a totally different direction. I kept my tone in check and I was as kind as humanly possible. We ran some errands. She did help me pick out Valentine decorations and I enjoyed my time doing that with her, I felt some harmony. Then went to my house and cooked some organic vegetables. She started to get weird, on her phone constantly and told me she has to leave. As she left I hugged and kissed her and told her I love her but things were going to be very different from now on. She looked at me and said she knew.

    When I was with her my heart was breaking into a million pieces. Her face looked so sad. She was trying to be nice. I was crying inside because I want there to be peace between us so bad and I am ever wore out with her bad choices..I need to grow a set of she balls.
    I wanted to take my daughter's financial burdens and tell her not to worry but HELL NO I will not do that. My heart was screaming for me to do that but how stupid that would be, the point is for her to suffer hard enough from her own stupid mistakes so she can STOP them and we all can get on this good path. I think when she gives me love in spurts, I am so lonesome for her love that it fills something inside of me. I want to walk in love and harmony on this journey with my daughter. There is no one that can replace her and I know some of you will say she is not capable of walking in harmony with me. I crave that so much..I have to work on being satified with so little. I feel so awful that she is hurting so much and I feel so awful that she chooses to be such a difficult person. Thank you all for your compassion and lessons. Such a hard, hard journey.
    I had planned to talk about more things with her financial stuff but the words did not come, I just wanted a day filled with harmony. I am truly wore out. Sad, confused. I hurt all over and under all this I know I need to detatch for my own life.

     
  8. recoveringenabler

    recoveringenabler Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Oh newstart, that makes all of it so much more difficult. I understand completely. Your post brought tears to my eyes because it conjured up so many memories of how I felt when I was creating boundaries for my daughter.....

    I believe the point is to find out what it is you are willing to do and what you are not and to communicate that to your daughter effectively, as you are doing. Your daughter may indeed benefit from your boundaries, however, she may not.....I think it's valuable to address the possibility that there may be a different outcome then you anticipate. I've found, for my own sanity and well being, that it's beneficial to be unattached to the outcome completely......to do your part by setting boundaries around negative behavior and then to let it go. I know how hard that is, believe me, I've done my share of suffering over my daughter's choices too.....I did a lot of meditating and therapy to be able to let go.

    For what it's worth I had a recent experience with my daughter that was completely unexpected. After not seeing her too much... mostly because we'd been away and then my husband and I got the flu.....I saw her about a week ago. I didn't feel any of the old codependent emotions.....there was no resentment, no anger or sadness, guilt or actually any negatives at all. There was a new opening between she and I......I was filled with love for her in a way I hadn't felt in a long time......she was basically the same, she'd already adhered to all of my boundaries.....I think what the difference is is that I accepted her the way she showed up and I did not feel, on any level at all, that I was responsible for her. My therapist told me that my daughter likely had trouble with self validation which I think is part of Borderline too. That helped me to see that I could validate her feelings without validating the behaviors. Somehow that made sense to me and when I saw her, I did that.

    I think a large part of the difference is that in my own healing I unloaded GUILT about not being able to save her......and that ushered in acceptance of myself and then of her. I am still somewhat awed by it all.....it was as if the "space" and the energy between she and I was cleansed and all of the old stuff was gone and this new opening was there. I am still trying to integrate it and find more clarity in it.....but I wanted to share it with you because your experience and mine are very similar. Forgive me if this is disjointed or not clear, I'm still processing all of it....

    It didn't turn out the way I would have hoped when I began this journey......however, it works. She is who she is, living her life the way she wants, I am not responsible for any part of her life any longer, we are separate in every way......and in that separation, with her over there and me over here....love blossomed in a new and pretty wonderful way. I could be present with her in a way I could not when I was enabling her. And that presence alone validated her and invited in a new authenticity I had yearned for but hadn't known how to get to. I believe all of the work I'd been doing on myself ushered in a very new experience with my daughter.

    I believe that YOU can walk in harmony with your daughter and even if she cannot do it the way you do, you can experience the harmony if you are present with yourself........I know it sounds odd, but I do believe this is an "inside job" in which your daughter is the catalyst for changes for you.....and in those changes, it will ALL change. Empaths often have much work to do with boundaries and once they are erected effectively, I believe our capacity for love and acceptance is unlimited.....but the boundaries are crucial so that we can open our hearts.

    I can't know the path for you and your daughter, but I feel in my heart that as you develop strong boundaries (and I think your communication with your daughter today is a big indicator of how committed you are to changing) your experience will mirror mine. However, in this in-between time, I think it's extremely important for you to hold your ground, hard as it is, so that you and she can separate in an organic, healthy way......I don't mean separate as in you don't see her, I mean separate in that you are two entirely separate beings....you are not enmeshed, you know where she ends and you begin.....as an empath sometimes those lines are quite foggy......hence, our inability at times to be able to rise above all our feelings to set those boundaries and keep them.

    I don't believe she chooses to be difficult....she is who she is as a result of a different brain....it's you and I who choose to enable and that is something we CAN change. We have the power to do that. And, at least from where I stand today....(it can always change!) in making those changes, in setting strong boundaries around negative behavior, you end up not abandoning yourself to codependency, which ushers in loving and accepting yourself......and that changes every part of our lives, including our connection with our kids.

    It does wear us out. You did so much today newstart in terms of boundary setting with your daughter.....letting her know about the house rental was a lot. Give yourself credit for doing a very difficult thing. I believe it's better to do this in increments anyway.....as you build your strength and she adapts to changes. In addition to spending time with our daughters who are taxing to begin with.....you're also making enormous changes within yourself and that is incredibly wearing on us.

    I hope you have a good support system because this is hard.....and being an empath makes this even more difficult because you're feeling for her too....... I had an ARMY of people helping me....I never thought I would stop feeling the agony you feel........but amazingly I did. No one is more surprised than me.

    I know exactly how you feel newstart. I was drowning in all of it and had to do something differently, as you are.....I was forced into change because of my daughter.....now I see it as the greatest gift of my life....because my journey thru it all gave me my life back.....and this time, that life is free of codependency, guilt, obligation,resentment and fear.

    Hang in there. You did an incredible job today of setting your boundary. Of course, you're worn out from it.....it's horrifically HARD. Your daughter may be sad about letting go of the connection you two had before.....but that sadness is part of letting go of the old......it's ok....I hope she can feel it and grieve it and let it go......

    I feel for you newstart.....I have enormous empathy for you and send you my warmest and best wishes for you to find some peace along the way.....you deserve that, you've had so many losses, so much grief.....in reading your story I do believe this is your time to heal and your time to thrive....and as hard as it is for you, you really are doing a wonderful job......and I also know that it still hurts like hell.

    Nurture yourself now. Be kind and compassionate to yourself. Give to yourself as you would to your daughter if she were hurting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  9. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Recoveringenabler, Thank you for your wisdom and guidance. I read and reread the posts and information from the Borderline page and your experience. I remember when I put a halt to my daughters belligerence, it was the best thing I did for both of us. Years ago right after my son died, I did not have the strength, wisdom or what ever it took to make the madness stop. I was in such fear of losing my relationship with my daughter. I read a book that said 'Your daughter needs you as much as you need her' and that helped me with getting stronger to stop her abuse.
    I do understand what you are talking about when letting go..I am doing this but on a slower rate.
    I know where my longing is coming from. I have written several times that I was soulmates with my grandmother. I know the strength, love and power that comes from having a solid sisterhood. I had that with my best friend until she moved. I have a few women friends that I love dearly.
    I have one sister but we do not communicate. She still holds it against me that my grandmother and I were so close, she felt left out. I never wanted her to be left out, she was a difficult child for my grandmother, very draining. My grandmother took me to Europe several times, we took trains all over the country. I feel very lucky to have experienced that kind of close love and to have that much fun. I cry when I think about my grandmother because I miss her so terribly much.
    So the longing I have with my daughter comes from the missing my grandmother so deeply.
    I am working on realizing that my daughter is NOT the same character as my grandmother and our connection will be different because we are 2 different people, 2 different dynamics. I know this yet I long for this. I have a wondeful husband, I love him dearly. He is a solid honest man. But he can get boring and talks about sports and scores. I just don't care about scores, what do you do with that anyway? My son could tell you what the score was to any sports game going back to the 1950s. Why would you want that information? Lately my husband talks nonstop about his stressful job and I listen to him with all my heart. Last night he said he has a stressful job but not even close to the stress go that I go through with our daughter. My husbands way of dealing with her is to ignore her and completely detatch. He says that it is working but not well because I see the hurt, grief and disbelief in his face when he finds out all the crap she does.

    I am very grateful for the guidance, support, wisdom, collective experience from you and from this support group. It gives me the strength to move forward and do the right thing. The right thing is to stop the abuse and live a lifestyle of peace, harmony, laughter, love, joy and enjoy each and everyday no matter what cards we have been dealt. Thank you.:group-hug:
     
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I was so close to my grandmother that I called her Mom. And she loved it. While the rest of my family ostracized me, she befriended appreciated and protected me, even when others told her not to. We spoke almost every day u til her death and I had her until age 37! She TOLD me "I love brother and sister but you are special." I never doubted it.

    She was a caregiver to me as a child and a beloved person who had loved me when nobody else did. But my kids were a whole different dynamic. I was their protector. They depended on me. I was there for THEIR hard timesa and to help them grow up I never thought of recreating my relationship with my grandma with my kids. So to me it is interesting that you did. Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts!

    My thoughts are that we can never recreate any relationship. Each is in my opinion u unique. I am close to all my kids but in vastly different ways. None are like me and my grandmother. My boys do not share my likes as much as my girls and that's ok. I am very close to my husband. He is the one who shared so much with me and we are best friends. He complains about work too. So do I. It is part of being close. My kids complain about things too.

    I understand exactly what you want and what triggered it, but nothing is ever exactly the same. Maybe marital counseling can help you and husband find excitement again? None of us can look for spousal closeness in our grown kids who more e out and have their own relationships, whether we like who they picked out or not. I know my girls are close to their SO. One I love and one I don't, but it's up to them and they are naturally going to stay close but I can't and don't depend on them to be my BFF. They are always my kids, I a different stage of life than me.

    Now I feel for you that your surviving child is hard to be around. My oldest can be trying. But you can live a full meaningful life anyway starting with rejuvenating your marriage!

    I hope this made sense. I am not at all criticizing you or saying my way is best. I am just presenting my experience to maybe give you a way to become unstuck from hurtful patterns....therapy. it was golden for me.

    I k ow you have been through more than many of us and only wish you well.

    Love and hugs.
     
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  11. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    How lucky you were to have a grandmother that you felt deep love for you and you for her. I know each and every relationship is different and each and every person leaves a different print on the heart. What I was saying is that I want to feel mutually supported and loved by my adult daughter and have the kind of light hearted laughter like how I had with my grandmother. Actually at this age and stage of my life I do not want to be around anyone that can not mutually share love and respect with me. I was my childrens protector and guided them but when my daughter became an adult I wanted a different kind of relationship with her, one that is mutually respectful.

    Years ago I met a woman that was my mothers age. We had a beautiful relationship. She loved my children like her grandchildren. She had a daughter that died by cancer when she was 6 years old that would have been my age. That relationship was very satifying, nurturing and fun. She died in 2004 and it was heartbreaking. Of course she did not take the place of my grandmother and I did not try to recreate what I had with my grandmother, I wanted the love and mutal growing and respect.
    That is what I am missing from my daughter. The close sisterhood, the mutal respect, knowing someone has my back, knowing someone will be with me if I have to go to the hospital. I want to RECREATE the goodness that comes from a loving relationship. There will never be a replacement or recreation of my grandmother or my son or my friend that I lost but I will make damn sure that anyone I allow into my life will give me mutal respect.
     
  12. Tanya M

    Tanya M Living with an attitude of gratitude Staff Member

    Newstart, you are showing such great strength. I know it may not feel like that but you are. You are changing the dynamics of your relationship with your daughter. You are setting important boundaries in order for you both to move forward.

    It is hard when we want so much to have a close, meaningful relationship with our adult child and because of their lies, chaos and drama we cannot.

    I know how hurtful the lies can be. I have said many times about my son, "if his lips are moving, he's lying"
    It is such a betrayal of trust and my son is a master at it. One incident that sticks with me was when he was supposedly attending some college classes that his dad and I were paying for. He and I met for lunch and I asked him how the classes were going. He went into great detail about what he was studying and learning. It was all lies!! The next day while at work I had a call from the police, they had picked up my son for petty theft. I contacted the college to let them know he would not be attending classes and was informed that he showed up the first day and never came back.
    When I called my son out on it he continued to lie telling me that he had been attending class and it was the school that was lying.
    My son is also good at fast talking, changing the subject, interjecting things, to the point it makes you dizzy and confused.

    I learned that I cannot make him stop lying but I can tell him I know he's lying and will not engage in a debate with him. I will not allow him to drag me down the rabbit hole.

    The very best thing you can do is continue focusing on setting strong boundaries. Continue to nurture yourself. Be the very best you can be.

    We cannot fix our adult children's lives but we can fix our own.

    Wishing you days that are filled with peace.
     
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  13. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Tanya M,
    Thank you for your encouraging words. I want to be strong and many times I sob deep sobs and then I feel better.
    I understand the pain and dissapointment you felt when you found out your son was not going to college. The same thing happend to me. I took on a extra job because my daughter said she was going to graduate early from college and needed extra money. I sent it to her and she took herself and her friends on cruises. After that she took herself and her boyfriend at the time to Fuji they then flew to New York from there to Disney World. I found this out from a friend of hers that did not want to see us being used like this. The friend saw all this on Facebook and called me to tell me what was going on.
    Of course I was besides myself. We started putting boundries up right away and went to counseling, alone and together.
    I remember when my dad paid for some of my college. I was so grateful and thankful. Just like a detective, I have to keep one step ahead of my daughter so she does not continue to rip me off and here we are again, her doing the same stuff.

    I remember having an account I shared with her and when she ripped me off I closed that account immediately. I remember her calling me from the grocery store telling me they will not accept her debit card, I remember not feeling bad but feeling justice.

    That is what I have to remember the feeling of justice. Justice feels good and right.

    Yes. Justice...I will wallow in that feeling. Now she is trying to rip me off again. She is about to feel the wrath of Justice when I do not sell the house she is living in and she will have to scramble to find a place and the landlord will not let her slide when she is late or cannot make her payments.

    I agree Tanya, We can only fix ourselves. Thank you for your wisdom. I am so sorry for your hard road. Sending this with love and compassion.
     
  14. Tired mama

    Tired mama Active Member

    My son also cost me a lot of money. I felt betrayed but agree that justice helps.
     
  15. newstart

    newstart Active Member

    Tired mama, It is a huge betrayal. From ages 11-15 most kids are experimental and hormones are all over the place and they see what they can get away with. By age 16 some sense is suppose to develope. But if you are still doing the same stupid things at age 35 that is really messed up.

    Justice when dealing with an out of control troubled adult feels good. I really believe in Karma and what comes around goes around. When Justice came to my daughter it felt right, deep down in my bones.

    Justice is about to happen again.
     
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  16. Sam3

    Sam3 Active Member

    That’s so true. Lies turn people into ghosts. You’re always trying to look through them to find the truth.
     
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