Well I spoke too soon about Hailie

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by DammitJanet, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Tony just told me that I need to get up with Jamie because the school has called them in for a conference. They suspect that Hailie has at least ADHD. Jamie is so upset he was crying on the phone to his dad because he is afraid she will end up having a hard childhood especially like Cory.

    Now Jamie has known that we have had suspicions that Hailie could possibly have inherited something from a very early age. I am convinced her mom has some form of a mental illness herself. No one acts like her and be perfectly normal. Hailie was a very defiant young toddler. Still is. She is also very smart. Smarter than both her parents, trust me.

    Right now I would hedge my bets and say they would give her an ADHD/ODD diagnosis with a possibility of a rule out mood disorder not otherwise specified.

    I think eventually she may end up having BiPolar (BP) but maybe not. Right now she does have extreme mood shifts and throws fits. Lots of it I do tend to blame on inconsistent parenting. Yelling and threatening but then not following through doesnt work. Jamie tells me all the time that I yelled at him and I have said yeah and I learned it didnt work! I have learned a whole lot and grown as a person. He doesnt need to make the same mistakes I did.

    I am going to advise him to have her pediatrician to prescribe low dose ritalin for the immediate issues but then to get on a waiting list for a neuropsychologist. That will probably take some time. He does have pretty good insurance thankfully. I dont know what type of mental health coverage it has on it though. If it has good mental health coverage I will have him look into getting her into seeing a child therapist for play therapy. That way the therapist will work with Billie to on parenting strategies. Billie really needs them. That will help with Mikey too. He is 3 years old and not even potty trained. He knows what he is doing but simply refuses to use the potty. I think he has issues too. Actually, he may be on the autism scale. Lord, that would kill them.
  2. Signorina

    Signorina Guest

    Janet - I am not sure where Jamie lives - but his best bet would be to take her to the closest, best Children's Hospital and have a full work up done by their Child Development department. It's an exhaustive work up - a big part of it is a multi page questionnaire on the child; filled out by the parents. They approach it from all angles - physical, neurological, psychological, sociological, etc. I had my PC18 evaluated when he was having trouble at age 5 and they wanted to leave him back in kindergarten. For what it's worth - I was convinced he was on the spectrum (like my nephew) and he was not. He was (and still is) just a little quirky. He is now a college student on an academic scholarship!

    I would start with a broad based evaluation free of any preconceived notions. I worked with Children's Memorial in Chicago and later with Children's Hospital of Milwaukee and both were incredible and multi faceted. They treat the whole child and have a family based approach which is really important.

    My experience with allowing schools to take the lead is not good. I think they try to fill the programs they have regardless of whether or not the program fits the child.

    If Jamie has medical insurance, it should be covered.
  3. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    One thing that worries me about letting the parents fill in the surveys is just that: the mother. She will under report completely. She has been doing that this girls entire life.

    I have had worries about things (and Jamie has) since she started show signs of things at around age 2 and Billie says the doctor told her it was perfectly normal. Well it wasnt.

    My granddaughter locked me out of the bathroom at barely age 2 after calling me a *itch just because I took a sharp knife from her. She literally slammed the door in my face and screamed it and then raged at me cussing for well over an hour. The next really bad sign was her very early preoccupation with self exploration. Its not unusual for little girls to find themselves but it is unusual for one to refuse to even put on pants because they cant reach it. She would literally walk around all day with her hand inside her diaper and then inside her panties when she got out of diapers. Then she would take baths with her friend that was a boy a year older than her and she would grab his privates and yank on them in the tub. Her mom thought that was funny. Well she did until the little boys mom found out about it. She has only stopped constantly playing with herself and others in the past 9 months or so. Or she has gone underground.

    She isnt fond of me because she was misbehaving over something one time and I wouldnt let her out of time out until she actually completed a proper time out. Since it was the first time anyone had ever enforced such a thing, it did take a while. Normally she just got yelled at and then cuddled because her mommy felt bad that she yelled at her so there was no punishment for whatever she did wrong. It about drove me bats to sit in the house and watch it.
  4. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Be sure you let Jamie know that you would like to do one of whatever forms the dr gives you. Is there any chance he would do this with-o telling Billie beforehand? If at all possible, do one. Otherwise write aLL of this down and find out the name of the doctor that they use and mail the info to the doctor. the therapist/psychiatrist/whatever doctor cannot give you info but they CAN take info from you. I did once tell my mom to put her perspective of my kids on paper and I gave this to the therapist. I thought my mom was hugely out of line in her 'Wiiz is perfect and J is perfectly awful" perspective and I needed the therapist to see this with-o me just talking about it. We were living with my parents at the time and it was creating HUGE problems for my kids but we couldn't move out because husband was in grad school and my neck had just blown another vertebrae and my female parts were literally falling out so I needed two very expensive surgeries and help with the kids. The therapist was floored because my mother showed just how skewed her views were and this helped a LOT.

    I am SURE that Billie would say that you totally don't see life on a daily basis, but Jamie is not stupid and he IS aware of mental illness and I am sure he is well aware that your insights could be instrumental in getting some help for the kids. I do think that play therapy would be excellent because they will certainly work with Billie and will get a good view of her issues and that can only help them all. Imagine how happy Jamie's marriage might be if Billie got the help she needed! That would be great for all concerned, in my opinion.

    Encourage them to go to childrens, and get Tony to help Jamie see that even if Billie objects that this NEEDS to happen for his children to grow up and be healthy adults.

    I am not at all surprised that school is calliing them, and I bet that Jamie only knows a fraction of the calls the teacher has made and the notes she has tried to send home. Let him know that he has to insist that the kids get what they need no matter hwat that is or how much Billie objects. Get the docs' names from him and send info directly to the docs rather than having Jamie take it to them. Unless they have the info they cannot help the family or the child. No way will Billie tell Jamie how bad it is, because she likely is setting it up to look like the teacher is out to get Haillie and Haillie is the 'injured' party. That way Billie doesn't have to take any responsibility.

    Also, the constant touching is probably a huge issue at school. Many teachers do not have a CLUE how to handle a child who does that. I would be very surprised if Haillie hasn't done something already that is inappropriate at school, and they may start wondering if she has been abused because so very many people don't understand that this can be a symptom of childhood bipolar and other problems and that it is not always a sign that the child has been sexually abused. most people think that only sexual abuse would have a child that interested in that part of their anatomy. they are wrong, but it is really HARD to protect yourself from their accusations. Jamie has to be super careful with this because it would cost him his job to be investigated for that. That is one reason that he very much NEEDS to get a full evaluation on his kids. If nothing else, maybe that would be a reason that he could give to Billie to get the evaluation's done.

    I do think a children's hospital would be the best place to find resources.
  5. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    I have a feeling the school is going to want to send her to their own nuero dr. They have been documenting every little thing she does, this all will get sent to the dr. if they agree to take her. They won't need anything from the parents. Jamie can look into the dr. before she goes. I know in our district, our kids get sent to Children's Hospital. Jamie won't have to pay for anything, plus, if there is something wrong, the school continues to pay.

    They don't suspect child abuse. If they did, there would be an investigation immediately, that day.
  6. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I would imagine the school will begin to do some testing on their own. Let that begin before have a peddoc rx stimulants for her -- that would be my suggestion. If they agree to testing, they can do the educational piece, the iq stuff, the social stuff, the psychological stuff, etc. Have them sign off on all testing. I don't think I would suggest that he goes to her peddoc and ask for a stimulant until he has a clearer picture of what is going on.

    If it is inconsistent parenting, or learning issues (boredom because she is grasping concepts so quickly in class), etc., it's always better to have a little knowledge than to just guess. She's still little, it could be held off a few months without a significant negative impact, in my opinion.

  7. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    School will push for whatever evaluation will get her medicated.
    in my opinion - wrong approach.
    She needs a top-notch comprehensive evaluation before starting any medications. You have to know what you are dealing with first.
  8. Signorina

    Signorina Guest

    I say this gently -- but when the school has the child evaluated; the doctor is working FOR the school district and the school district's best interest's come into play. While the SD's best interests should correlate with the child's best interests; that doesn't always happen.

    When a parent has a child evaluated, the doctor is working for the parent in the child's best interests.

    I am a belt AND suspenders kinda parent. No harm in doing both and medical insurance should pay for an evaluation.
  9. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I found out they do some good behavioral heath assessments at the same hospital where she was born. They would probably be willing to take her there.

    Billie has this thing about listening to her pediatrician doctor because one of her relatives works there as a nurses assistant her something. Or maybe a receptionist. Something like that. She would never tell the full truth about what goes on in the house. Just like with Mikey's speech issues. I was on her from the time Mikey was about 18 months old and not even uttering da da da da or bababa. He said nothing but uh and cried and screamed. I told her she really needed to have that looked into and she told me her doctor said it was "second child syndrome". Well my kids never had "second child syndrome"...lol. In fact, they wanted to talk more to keep up with the older ones! At this point in time I can just about understand Kenzie as well as I can understand Mikey. Thats sad. She picks up at least a word or two a day.

    I have a feeling I wasnt told a whole lot of things that went on last year and most likely Jamie wasnt either. Of course, she only went to preschool 2 days a week for 4 hours a day.

    And yes you are right, everything that goes on that Hailie does wrong is someone else's fault. I dont know that I think she needs an IEP. Of course Im not there. I have seen what she can do though as far as work. Last year she was learning to spell her name which I thought was very good. She was doing very well with her letters too. She was copying them pretty well. Where she has major issues is social skills. She is mean. Jamie got through school by being funny. He was the class clown. That isnt going to be Hailie. I have always told Jamie and Billie that they are going to have to nail the windows shut by the time she is 12 because she is the one who will be sneaking out and stealing the car. I guess they are now worried that I am right...lol. Of course I am, I can spot a difficult child a mile away!
  10. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

  11. dstc_99

    dstc_99 Well-Known Member

    I can say that when we had to fill out paperwork for my daughters evaluations they asked for everyone to fill it out. IE: teachers, parents, and anyone else of adult age who was in the household. I found it funny that the Dr immediately discredited my mothers answers since they were so skewed in opinion from everyone elses. Point is don't just assume because Billie will try to make things sound wonderful that he/she wont be able to see that and realize it doesnt add up.
  12. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    Make sure that Jamie knows that if the school says that Haillie must see a doctor or therapist or take medications or get treatment or evaluations then the school MUST pay for them. UAN, you must work in an amazing school system because i don't know of anyone else where the school sent a child to a doctor for a full evaluation of the type that you are mentioning. The behaviors must be WAY beyond the extreme for them to do this.

    It is not a state law that the school must pay if the schools says she must have the evaluation or medications or whatever or she cannot go to school. As long as they do not make it so that she cannot go to school unless she has this or that done then the school is not required to pay the bill.

    I never truly trusted the school's evaluations. For exactly the reasons listed above about who the doctor works for and because I know some who were very motivated to prove that kids daughter not qualify for programs.

    Has Jamie ever gone to the pediatrician with-o Billie, maybe even with-o the kids and just told the doctor what is going on? Would he do that to help his children? He could send the doctor a letter and ask the doctor to let him make an appointment where the kids would not be there. I just don't think the doctor would be missing what is going on unless Billie is lying about everything and she is super incredible at lying. Unless, of course, the doctor is an idiot, which happens. Jamie might have to take a day off of work but if it would get his kids the help they need then it might be worth it.
  13. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Well, I talked to the kids today about Hailie. Billie is in total denial saying things about how Hailie is learning her alphabet and blah blah blah. And I had to interrupt her and tell her that ADHD has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence and that I had always known Hailie was smart. Billie did make one comment about how I had been saying they needed to get her tested for years and I said yeah well I have seen some signs I have been worried about and I have always been of the mind that the earlier you catch things the better the chance for success.

    Well, Jamie was just the opposite. He was in tears and thinking her life was completely ruined. He almost took a personal day for the day after the parent teacher conference and swore he would never go to another teacher conference that way he would never have to know what went on in school...lol. It also didnt help that every time Jamie moved after he had told the teacher that he had ADHD as a kid the teacher pointed out all the things he was doing that showed he still had it as an adult! I dont know why that came as such a shock to him because I have been telling him that for years but I guess hearing it from someone else just hit him differently. He is scared to death that Hailie will end up doped up and slobbering in the corner because she is so drugged up. I told him that simply doesnt happen anymore, not for kids with what she could possibly have. He does remember Cory going through drug trials but that was still in what could be called the infancy of childhood bipolar with mental health. Things have come so far in the last ten years. They will come even farther in the next ten years before his daughter is 15.

    Actually after hearing Billie telling me everything that the teacher circled on the paper Im not so sure I agree with the ADHD diagnosis anymore. I am thinking I may be leaning more towards an anxiety and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) diagnosis.

    Here are basically what she said:
    Has to have things perfectly organized
    worries about what everyone else is doing before she will start on her own work
    talks out of turn
    cant stay in seat
    always tries to get near her friends
    gets upset if things dont go her way
  14. soapbox

    soapbox Member

    The concerns you list could be from a wide variety of dxes.
    However, this one caught my attention... because it is very typical of kids with Auditory Processing Disorders (APD).
    They can't figure out what the teacher wants them to do by listening (for various reasons), so they wait until the others start, and then copy what the others do.

    She's a bit young yet for Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) testing, but not by much... they usually don't test for it before age 7, and if ADHD is suspected, will not test for APDs until ADHD has been ruled out or is medicated - because ADHD produces similar symptoms in many kids.
  15. 1905

    1905 Well-Known Member

    I know it's going to be ok. You'll see Janet. There are so many kids with way many more things going on than that, I know once you have a specific diagnosis, you be relieved. Once the school gets involved, they'll stay involved and her scoolwork will become so individualized she will become a great success.
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Oh I think so too UAN. I do have to giggle a bit at Jamie's reaction though. Heavens, he is acting like it would be the end of the world to find out she has adhd. It isnt. I do not think she is on the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) spectrum. Mikey maybe but we will cross that bridge when we get there. Billie already thinks I want to medicate all kids into the ground and told me before she ever got pregnant...hell before they got married...that no child of hers would ever take any medication and that parents who gave kids medication were just lazy. I dont think she realized at the time that I had my kids on medications and Jamie quickly put her in her in her place...lmao. She changed her tune to say that at times it might be needed but that many people just did it for babysitting purposes. Well I think she may have to change her tune even more.

    Those who say "not my child" have a tendency to eat their words.

    I understand Jamie's worry of her becoming a zombie like Cory was at times but that was when Cory was basically a guinea pig for early onset BiPolar (BP). He was early on in the times of when that was being dxd in kids. Childhood mental health has come so far and is advancing every day. Like I told him, once we know what we are dealing with, we can work with her and get her help. No matter what it is help is out there. Not like in the days when he and Cory were kids. I swear the more I think about it, the more I really think she has some form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and anxiety disorder. And spoiled child syndrome. Her anxiety is completely understandable because her mother has confused the living daylights out of her for years. Its always been a push me,pull me relationship there. Scream and cuss and threaten her with grounding her for days or weeks only to then call her straight down stares to hug her and tell her mommy loves her and let her go outside with no punishment. Huh? How confusing. No wonder the kid doesnt know what boundaries are. She despises me because I do enforce rules.