Crumbs

newstart

Well-Known Member
My husband has taken a long trip into the wilderness. Our 38 year old daughter has become paranoid over her dad being gone. I am wore out from her constant worry. The constant worry and stressing is about to drive me crazy. She calls me several times a day 'Have you heard from dad'. She is uncomfortable to be around since her moods are all over the place. Since the boyfriend moved out I am over there checking on things. There has been a leak in the attic and the ceiling in the garage is about to cave in. The floors are filthy. She is talented in art and has an art studio in her home and I noticed paint and crap all over the table. I had bought her that art table and was hoping she would take care of it. Since I was in her house and refuse to use a nasty bathroom, I scrubbed it out and saw mold growing everywhere. I went outside in the backyard and the boyfriend threw his tools all over the backyard, a crowbar laying right under the kitchen window, and junk everywhere... UGH I am just describing a little bit of the mess. I treated the mold, threw out tons of old rotting food etc. I bet I have thrown out over 3 tons of garbage. If my name was not on this house or I did not have respect for her neighbors I would let the place cave in on itself. My daughter yelled 'I am not a filthy pig' I then made matters worse by saying then stop living like one. Later she went swimming with me and started talking tacky, I just pipped in and said she sounded like a psychopath. She got quiet, went home, called me and said she wanted to make things right. We ended up going out to eat, the food was good, then shopped a little bit. My stomach is all knotted up with all the off and on. I do walk on eggshells. My husband and I talk about when one of us dies, and if I go first, he said he will not put up with her and leave town and not leave a forwarding address. Why do I subject myself to this? For the little crumbs of ok behavior peppered here and there? Is it worth it? Just to be clear, the dirty house is just one of the things, the lies, deceptive lifestyle and other things make the entire ball of wax. My love for her over shadows the nasty parts and I take up the crumbs like they are gold nuggets. How pathetic am I? She hurts/irritates/ my soul to the core and I settle for the crumbs. How long can I continue to do this?
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Why do I subject myself to this?
My love for her over shadows the nasty parts
How long can I continue to do this?
For each of us and all of us it's one day at a time. In the time I have been here on this forum I have changed in terms of how close in I will be with my son and how close in I let him to me. And I have let go in terms of what my expectations are of him, and how much responsibility I take in his life.

My son has lived in a home I own too. Actually I bought it so that he would not have to live anymore with me. Except experience has taught me that I can't bear his trashing that other house either. And there are decent tenants in the front house, too, and I don't want him running them off. So. We change. But I vacillate. I won't lie.

You are still chosing to have this overlap with her. The house, for example, is a choice. Going over there was a choice. You knew on some level what you would find. I am not judging here. I am only saying the same thing as you are. That as long as we choose to dance with them, there will be stepping on our feet.

I may choose to let my son back home. And then I will be (again) in the same spot as are you. I can't say I won't do this. I am thinking about it, actually, because my son is having problems where he is living in a city a couple of hours from me. He can't seem to live with people without conflict. And then when I allow him home, my own life becomes conflict-ridden. It has been peaceful and serene for me since he has been away. Why am I contemplating this? Because I am in the same boat as you.

I am sorry it is so hard and that there is no entirely good answer for us. Each road has its set of problems. I wish it was different for us.
 
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newstart

Well-Known Member
For each of us and all of us it's one day at a time. In the time I have been here on this forum I have changed in terms of how close in I will be with my son and how close in I let him to me. And I have let go in terms of what my expectations are of him, and how much responsibility I take in his life.

My son has lived in a home I own too. Actually I bought it so that he would not have to live anymore with me. Except experience has taught me that I can't bear his trashing that other house either. And there are decent tenants in the front house, too, and I don't want him running them off. So. We change. But I vacillate. I won't lie.

You are still chosen to have this overlap with her. The house, for example, is a choice. Going over there was a choice. You knew on some level what you would find. I am not judging here. I am only saying the same thing as you are. That as long as we choose to dance with them, there will be stepping on our feet.

I may choose to let my son back home. And then I will be (again) in the same spot as are you. I can't say I won't do this. I am thinking about it, actually, because my son is having problems where he is living in a city a couple of hours from me. He can't seem to live with people without conflict. And then when I allow him home, my own life becomes conflict-ridden. It has been peaceful and serene for me since he has been away. Why am I contemplating this? Because I am in the same boat as you.

I am sorry it is so hard and that there is no entirely good answer for us. Each road has it's set of problems. I wish it was different for us.
Thank you Copa. It's just such a struggle. I know why you are thinking of letting your son move back in, because you are hanging on to the feeling that just maybe this time he may have matured a bit and not be so bad. And the need to guide and protect. And the good night sleep you get when you know your child is in a safe place. Oh my goodness. After spending time with my daughter, I know with certainty that we will never be able to live with each other. Remember that old Beatles song, can't remember the title but the words are 'She so heavy' that is what it feels like to be around my daughter, the crap she hangs onto makes her so intense and 'heavy'. And another reason we continue like we do is to make sure we have tried to the best of our abilities. I am sorry you are sitting in this boat with me on this restless sea.
 

Deni D

Well-Known Member
Oh newstart
since the boyfriend moved out I am over there checking on things. There has been a leak in the attic and the ceiling in the garage is about to cave in. The floors are filthy. She is talented in art and has an art studio in her home and I noticed paint and crap all over the table. I had bought her that art table and was hoping she would take care of it. Since I was in her house and refuse to use a nasty bathroom, I scrubbed it out and saw mold growing everywhere. I went outside in the backyard and the boyfriend threw his tools all over the backyard, a crowbar laying right under the kitchen window, and junk everywhere... UGH I am just describing a little bit of the mess. I treated the mold, threw out tons of old rotting food etc. I bet I have thrown out over 3 tons of garbage. If my name was not on this house or I did not have respect for her neighbors I would let the place cave in on itself. My daughter yelled 'I am not a filthy pig' I then made matters worse by saying then stop living like one.
Sigh, she lives very differently than you and I do. I have friends who live very differently than I do. There have been times I've become, well codependent, trying to "help" them straighten things out. To try, in my eyes, to make things better for them, cleaning up messes, pushing for maintenance, so on. I get that it's a different situation with people who are not offspring, but then maybe not so different. Is she a bad person because she does not seem to care about her physical surroundings? Is she a bad person because she does not concern herself with maintenance and upkeep? Is she a bad person because she doesn't consider the neighbors right next to her? I've been, with these friends of mine, thinking what will people think? How much trouble are they going to get into with this mess? I've also been, with these same friends of mine, thinking, oh man this is going to be more expensive than they can handle to fix if they don't get ahead of it. For years of this stuff I've worried for them. But someone else has told me through all of this time, years, they will be fine, they are fine, fine for them and so far that has been true. I think the reality of it is, yes she is a filthy pig, by yours and my standards, and others standards, as are my friends. But I know my friends are good people regardless. I know my friends hide the complaints against them as much as they can, and do what they have to do when pushed by authorities. I know they pay more to repair rather than upkeep when things go tits up and it affects them more financially. But I know regardless they are good people, just people who do not fit in, in this particular way.

She got quiet, went home, called me and said she wanted to make things right.
This seems to say to me that she cares what you think and feel very much, probably is more than she can handle. I know she is living in a community where a standard of living is required and is a place you feel more secure for her. Maybe it's not a neighborhood she, on her own, can keep up with.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
I know why you are thinking of letting your son move back in, because you are hanging on to the feeling that just maybe this time he may have matured a bit and not be so bad. And the need to guide and protect. And the good night sleep you get when you know your child is in a safe place.
This is the trade off of our situation with our children. When they are gone, there is peace but we still wonder from day to day if they are okay. When they are with us, there is tension, but we sleep at night, knowing they are safe.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Oh newstart

Sigh, she lives very differently than you and I do. I have friends who live very differently than I do. There have been times I've become, well codependent, trying to "help" them straighten things out. To try, in my eyes, to make things better for them, cleaning up messes, pushing for maintenance, so on. I get that it's a different situation with people who are not offspring, but then maybe not so different. Is she a bad person because she does not seem to care about her physical surroundings? Is she a bad person because she does not concern herself with maintenance and upkeep? Is she a bad person because she doesn't consider the neighbors right next to her? I've been, with these friends of mine, thinking what will people think? How much trouble are they going to get into with this mess? I've also been, with these same friends of mine, thinking, oh man this is going to be more expensive than they can handle to fix if they don't get ahead of it. For years of this stuff I've worried for them. But someone else has told me through all of this time, years, they will be fine, they are fine, fine for them and so far that has been true. I think the reality of it is, yes she is a filthy pig, by yours and my standards, and others standards, as are my friends. But I know my friends are good people regardless. I know my friends hide the complaints against them as much as they can, and do what they have to do when pushed by authorities. I know they pay more to repair rather than upkeep when things go tits up and it affects them more financially. But I know regardless they are good people, just people who do not fit in, in this particular way.


This seems to say to me that she cares what you think and feel very much, probably is more than she can handle. I know she is living in a community where a standard of living is required and is a place you feel more secure for her. Maybe it's not a neighborhood she, on her own, can keep up with.
Thank you DeniD. My daughter talks about people that have filthy homes. She takes walks and then calls me to tell me the junk she sees in peoples garages, how awful it is. When she visits new friends she always tells me how clean or filthy their home is. When I have been sick and not made my bed or there are dishes in the sink she brings that up right away. So I know she can see what out of place looks like.
I know that her and I have different standards but like some people that just can't see it, I KNOW she can.
I remember years ago when I spent a week with my very manic bipolar mother in law. Being around her caused me to go into major depression.
I had it so bad I could hardly get out of bed. My kids went to school clean, the house stayed fairly clean, dinner was made, I was bathed, bills were paid, yard was done. I know things can still be taken care of even with severe depression. I just want to mention that after I got my mother in law out of my life for ever, I have never fallen into such a depression. After my son died, I had severe sorrow and still do but it is not anything like depression. Now if it was just the pig pen lifestyle that my daughter had and she did not lie or deceive or talk ugly maybe, just maybe it would not be so overwhelming.
I too know people that live in pig pens. It is so disgusting to me that I do not go over the their homes. I would rather pee outside than to use a nasty toilet. I had a friend that had a very cluttered strolled home but it was clean, bathroom was clean. Weird thing is that if someones home is too dirty my daughter will complain about it and not go over either. She will tell me 'that house is too filthy for me to go into'.
The problem with me being the owner of the home, the expensive upkeep falls on me so a little preventive saves thousands of dollars. In a few short years the house will be paid off. It is truly a lovely home and she tells me she loves her home. We put a huge down payment on it so she can have doable payments. She has priced places to live and she knows she is getting a great deal. She would be living in a studio apartment in a bad part of town for the price she is living in a nice home and nice neighborhood.
Do I deeply understand that I should walk away and let her live anyway she wants at age 38? YES I do get it. I need to go back to therapy to try to figure out why my need to make sure she is ok is tops on my mind.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
This is the trade off of our situation with our children. When they are gone, there is peace but we still wonder from day to day if they are okay. When they are with us, there is tension, but we sleep at night, knowing they are safe.
Oh yes Beta you have been going through the same thing. I thought it was very brave of you to let your son back in after he sent you the nasty texts. I think we all were worried for you. I think sometimes we can't explain why we keep trying, praying and hoping for a nugget of something good and right. Hope things are falling into place for you at the new house. Hope people are being kind and loving towards you and your husband. Hope both your sons are doing well.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
I'm sure it's so very aggravating for you with no end in sight!

My first though is could you and your daughter see someone together to try to find a common ground where you perhaps could have a better relationship with her? It seems you want one but it's causing you a great deal of stress which I certainly understand. I don't know if this would help or if you've done it but I don't think it could hurt if she would agree. Just a session where you could talk things out once per week and have an inter-mediator there to help facilitate things?

I don't think I would be able to do what you are doing either. I equate it to when my son would go months of being sober and I would be waiting for the other shoe to fall and husband would think he was "fine now". We had some good family times in between the "storms" but I couldn't live like that either. I felt I had NO control over my life/surroundings.

:staystrong:
 

Crayola13

Well-Known Member
Sorry again about the condition of the house. I get psycho when it comes to a mess, so I would just go ahead and hire a cleaning service if I were in that situation. That is something that really causes me to lose it. Having a cleaning service come wouldn't really teach your daughter anything, but I'm a person who would rather go ahead with it anyway. I would put the boyfriend's tools on eBay to sell since he didn't care and left them scattered throughout the yard.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
I'm sure it's so very aggravating for you with no end in sight!

My first though is could you and your daughter see someone together to try to find a common ground where you perhaps could have a better relationship with her? It seems you want one but it's causing you a great deal of stress which I certainly understand. I don't know if this would help or if you've done it but I don't think it could hurt if she would agree. Just a session where you could talk things out once per week and have an inter-mediator there to help facilitate things?

I don't think I would be able to do what you are doing either. I equate it to when my son would go months of being sober and I would be waiting for the other shoe to fall and husband would think he was "fine now". We had some good family times in between the "storms" but I couldn't live like that either. I felt I had NO control over my life/surroundings.

:staystrong:

Hi RN0441, We have been through the therapy route many times with many therapists. We have sat down and talked about it until we are blue in the face. My daughter's major problem is her lies. I took my daughter to every kind of therapy, sometimes 3 times a week plus other activities. Group therapy even. Thousands of dollars spent on trying to help her, probably more like in the millions. Sometimes we have enjoyable time together. Sometimes she actually tries. The last time we went to therapy together the therapist told her she acts like a psychopath and can not help her anymore but would like to counsel me on how to not tolerate such abuse.
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Ugh I'm sorry.

Maybe you should take her up on her offer to help YOU deal with it.

I just remember when I went to therapy for myself I felt a relief that I was doing something. Of course, there is no magic answer. Just to talk our your frustration would certainly help you I'd think.

I know that sometimes you're so sick of it all and the last thing you want to do is be in therapy but you need someone to help you deal with it. I know I would.
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Sorry again about the condition of the house. I get psycho when it comes to a mess, so I would just go ahead and hire a cleaning service if I were in that situation. That is something that really causes me to lose it. Having a cleaning service come wouldn't really teach your daughter anything, but I'm a person who would rather go ahead with it anyway. I would put the boyfriend's tools on eBay to sell since he didn't care and left them scattered throughout the yard.
Hi Crayola13, I did stick some of the tools in the garage sale but did not know the rest were all over the yard until a few days ago. The tools are not that good so did not mess with Ebay. I thought about a cleaning service but I did not think they would know what to throw away. I ask my daughters permission on what she wanted to get rid of. There was so much junk it was overwhelming so I came over for just a few hours each day and help sort it. Been sorting for about 3 weeks now. The boyfriend was a serious hoarder. His sister is now paying rent on the house he is living in, I know she is sick of him not growing. The boyfriend lived between his mother's home, my daughter and his sister. 3 women were supporting this loser. Boyfriends mom died last Dec so he is living in her home and his sister is paying the rent, I am sure she is doing this so he won't move in with her. I hope when the sister does not want to pay his rent anymore he does not come knocking on my daughter's door. I am positive he has been getting away with this lifestyle because women think he is handsome. As he ages his looks fade and lady luck will not be on his side. He is 45! I just have a few more things to move and throw away. I did not throw away the propane grill he put coals in yet because I was afraid that if he did come back he would try to put coals in the inside home stove to start a fire. Such a creep.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
Hey Newstart,

The thing about crumbs is they taste just as good as the whole dang cookie. But much like cookie crumbs, they leave you craving more. It is hard to not scoop up the bits and pieces we crave. I do not envy you one bit. Lets hope Mr. Handsome finds a new lady and moves on. I have a 50 year old brother, living with my mom and he too, finds women to "help" him.

It is infuriating to watch someone live off of someone else's hard earned money. It was interesting to me that your daughter can see the filth in other's homes, but not her own. I guess she is just too close to the situation. I am sorry that you are having to put in so much work to clean up that house. I too, often felt responsible to clean up my son's messes. Does your daughter have a messy house because he lived there? Does she contribute to the mess? The reason I ask is 1) out of curiosity since she can see it in others and 2) I am curious if this is a pattern of hers that you will help to clean up once he is gone (for a longer period of time)?

To speak to your question-how long can you tolerate this?-That is going to be your call. I have a feeling that after all the work you are contributing to this clean up, it may be easier to answer that question. I too, get disheartened when I am cleaning up someone else's mess. I get mad at myself for being involved. I can't tell you how many times I have been cleaning something up and getting so mad-like-where the hell is (insert person's name) and how did I get myself into this? You didn't make that mess, why do you feel obligated to clean it up? I say this to suggest that if your daughter had to clean up the mess alone-she too, might get fed up enough that she never allows him to come back.

I can 100% relate to cleaning up my kids mess in order to not inconvenience other people who didn't give birth to him. I get it, no judgment here. I hope that your daughter is there with you 100% to clean the mess-it sounds like she is. Best wishes to you. Get you a bubble bath and put your feet up mama-you deserve a break!

Hugs,
JMOM
 

newstart

Well-Known Member
Hi Jmom, My daughter was no where near as messy as the boyfriend. She did not deep clean but things were organized and put away.
I too get mad at myself for my continued involvement. I study the detach with love list, try to get myself to do all of it because it is excellent and then fall back in trying to help and move ahead.. Mark my words, from this day forward I will NOT lift another finger to help her clean. The bath sounds wonderful, I have that large shower in my back yard that helps clean away my grief and stress. I hope things are going well with you and you have had some peace with your stress level.
 
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