Family of Origin (FOO) Support Thread Part 2

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Oh, poop.

Although I'm still on Operation Oblivion, as in I read nothing my "things" say, I do check her site from time to time to see if she posts to see if she is still watching me here. I guess she will never stop and that's ok. But I'm glad I checked as the fact that she posts about me no longer bothers me. The words she posts may so I am careful not to see what else she has said now.

A while back she accused me of going "scorched earth" on her, although nobody here or anywhere has a clue who she is. Today I see she posted an updated to her original post so she still considers this scorched earth (sigh).

If I know she is reading this, at least I can be mindful of what I say. Anything I don't want her to k now I don't put down, but gradually I don't care what s he knows or sees here because she is no longer a part of my life. So who cares what she knows, right?

The purpose of my writing here is to sort out my life, not hers. She happens to be a part of it and by acting out on me she makes herself a bigger part. But I promise to never disclose personal information. And I have no desire to tell these things to anybody she knows.

Why do they obsess over what we do when they don't want anything to do with us? Surely, if they are intelligent, they realize that nobody knows who they are??

I know that nobody on her site knows who I am so s he can write what she wants. I don't care.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
The book you want is Bourdain's "Kitchen Confidential."

I read the reviews this morning and will order from library today. If it is as good as it sounds, this will be my Book Club selection for next year.

Thanks! I read all the time, but had never heard of this writer, nor seen his show on Travel Channel.

So you were a baker, too.

:O)

Yum.

Cedar
 

nerfherder

Active Member
While my mother never mentioned an affinity for Mel Brooks, if I had to think of something that epitomized her personal style, even though she strived for lovely and lush in presentation, at heart she was vaudeville. Or travelling Yiddish theater.

Hah. My mom WAS in Yiddish Theatre. Before and after The War. She was on stage with some of the big names too. Molly Picon, Moishe Oishe, Topol. I remember one baby-sittin' night, Mom and my aunt got home well the next morning, because they'd gone to a show Molly was in, snuck backstage and had her in tears because she thought they were killed during the war.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Copa, Cedar, let me know if you got mine. I am not sure I know what I did...lol.

Cedar, I hope you read my reply

Ha! Yes, and I enjoyed seeing you, too. It was fun! We look so differently than we'd thought. It seemed to me that you must be tall and blond like a Valkyrie or some other courageous kind of woman, piping out arias and pounding away at the keyboard in a helmet with braids on it and a metal boustierre.

But you are a tiny little thing, SWOT!

Wherever do you keep that huge heart of yours?

Now, for Copabanana.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
My mom WAS in Yiddish Theatre.
Wow, Nerf, I am in awe. I hope your Mother did a oral history, like with the project Spielberg has. Your mother sounds like an absolutely marvelous and unique person.

Do you speak/understand Yiddish? I grew up around the language but they spoke in Yiddish to exclude me.
but had never heard of this writer, nor seen his show on Travel Channel.
Cedar, the past few years he has been on CNN, too.

Remember that until you mentioned D H looked like I pirate, I imagined your D H as looking like Anthony Bourdain. Anthony Bourdain looks like a Roman god not like a pirate.

However obnoxious he may be, he has made himself into a thoughtful and serious person, at least in his work. As far as selecting him for book club, from all I have heard the book is extremely raunchy.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I attracted friends because I was very pretty, smart and interesting to be with. I had no understanding of what friendship should be

I am not sure I have an understanding of friendship. To those of us enmeshed with an abusive parent, the attraction that brings trust and eventual friendship would feel like some version of enmeshment.

***

When my sister seeks relationship where the rules are clear (a marriage with no possibility of divorce that does not destroy some intrinsic belief, some vow made to himself, in the self concept of the male involved; a group of women who define themselves as loyal sisters in the ways my sister would like to be validated or protected without risking the vulnerability that leads to trust over time ~ or a pact not to exclude sibs whose intent was solely to guarantee that she not be excluded from whatever I brought to the table...like the freaking table, itself [roar].

Where was I going with this.

Family of origin rules do not work in the larger world.

A toxic mix of disparagement, ridicule, flattery, manipulative gossip, sly taint of fish in the mouth hatred and power over. That was all I knew about being a person. No wonder I read all the time, spent so much time alone!

Well, good for me then, that I did that.

That is why we become embroiled in unhealthy relationships, I think. What feels familiar is wrong from the beginning. Betrayal would be the norm. An acceptance of victimization or vengeance in advance for the hurt that is surely coming would be the norm. Some of us would have taken the abuser role in our friendships and some, the victim role. Or maybe those boundaries were more fluid than that.

It makes sense that this could be true.

I have changed very, very much, as I have grown into a person and yet, I haven't changed in an essential way, at all. I remember those last months I was able to spend with my mother. The feeling with my mom was like I was in suspended animation; always more attuned to her emotional state than my own. It was tiring, but the kind of tired that carries no sense of accomplishment.

Here is a story. So, neither of us knew so much about pumping gas. (One of the threats D H would make, back in the day when I was first doing whatever I wanted, like working or going back to school, was that I could damn well pump my own gas, then.)

:O)

Anyway. So, I was going to pump my mom's gas for her. And do you know, I could not get it to pump until the tank was full. I swear, you would have thought the theme from Jaws had begun playing in the background as I approached that stupid gas pump. By this time, I had gone back, taken the degree, was working and filling my own gas tank routinely but I could not get the pump to work to fill my mother's car. Contemptuous glares flying, my mother got out of the car and finished filling the tank.

Can you say self sabotaged into the role my mother insisted I take?

Isn't that something.

Regarding friendship: I remember what the therapist from Family of Origin told us: There are predators and abusers everywhere, targeting everyone. It isn't that we are unique Copa, or that we are stupid. It is that predators ~ those who assuage their own woundings by proving, again and again, that someone else (eventually, it will be you) victimized them in spite of, or because of, their wonderfulness and generosity and kindness and etc. It always comes down to that they have no choice but to do whatever the thing that they always do, to everyone, is.

So, we just need to learn to say: "Oh. Predator." We need to learn that we are all doing our best, here. We need to learn to bless ourselves first and if we have anything left over, to bless the predator and believe they will come through whole and healthy, too.

But we must bless ourselves, first. For the courage to risk, for the heart to remain, for the guts to survive the thing's ending without going under, ourselves.

For the longest time, I would fall into relationships with predators. In the strangest ways, too.

***

We are making such good progress, here. Thank you, SWOT and Copa especially, and everyone reading along and posting in as you can. It works, it can work, to examine and free ourselves of shame as we have been doing it, here in the FOO chronicles.

As I've worked through the sort of wordless, global feel of the shame in having been turned away from, in walking alone, in being named that guy others turn away from ~ as I've faced up to the feelings beneath the shame of having been judged and found wanting and condemned for the lack in me...I've learned to see shame as the signpost and the challenge and the opportunity it truly is.

I've learned that once we uncover any smallest thing having to do with the original shaming event and learn to see it through our own eyes and never again through the eyes of the abuser, every aspect of that piece of the global shame our abusers hurt into us comes together and the wound, in its entirety, is healed. There are still little charges in it, like electrical charges. These are the stories of our lives after all. In honoring the truth of what happened to us, we honor ourselves and our stories and our coming through it.

In a way, shame is where we are most real, most alive, most aware.

We need to learn to see even our shame through our own eyes and never again through the eyes of the abuser. Each of us has issues. We must have courage enough to face them; it is so hard to do that without condemning ourselves when we have been hurt into the victim role.

But it can be done.

We are doing it, here.

That energy to heal, to come whole, is within and can be accessed, if only we have courage and believe we can change these wrong things our abusers have done to us.

We can.

Copa's Sleeping Beauty kiss, my lifting the curtain on the Wizard of Oz...SWOT, with her determination to read every bit of research and name and inform herself ~ each of us has found her own way, has gone determinedly back to the forest, to the core of the hurt, and come through it.

So, it can work, and any one of us can do it.

It's like rebalancing our energy, in a way, or changing the course of a river. (There is the myth of Sisyphus and the stable he cleaned and the river whose course he changed to accomplish the impossible task.) I wouldn't say it's a matter of cleaning something out so much as it is a matter of thawing frozen energy, of unfreezing the energy of something that hurt so much that we could not have faced it then and survived, intact.

When I see my abuser hating me into some hapless victim to service some disbalanced something in her ~ those vignettes show me now, eye to eye with the abuser ~ any of them, all of them.

"I see you."

That is the essential crime, right? That is the thing the abuser cannot face. Who he or she is, really.

It could be that part of the difficult in coming clear about what happened to us in our childhoods is that we protect the abuser in our memories from what we know about them and about why they do what they do. It would be the final terror to understand your parent is twisted the way a person who would bully a child is twisted. I remember deciding, again and again, as we went through this, that compassion could come later. it was hard to push through those places where I was protecting my abuser, even in my own mind.

If you find yourself in a place where you cannot face down your abuser, imagine someone who can. Imagine someone who could see what your abuser was doing and know it was wrong, so your witness can teach you too to believe, to know in your heart, that what your abuser did or said when she had been given the incredible gift of a child to teach, was dead wrong.

Seeking Strength, your mother should never have cheapened either you or herself with her words and her labeling and her hatred. She was very wrong to do that to a beautiful young girl.

It bothers me so much that she said those terrible things to you. You are such a nice lady.

***

What else do I know about this process?

The determination to go back is scary. There is hatred trapped in every traumatic memory. The danger to us is that without support, we will come away having revalidated the abuser's truth, condemning ourselves and sealing the whole works beneath yet another layer of our own life energy that we need and that we should have and that is legitimately ours and that the abuser never had a right to in the first place. Whoever your abuser was, however certain it feels, the abuser is always wrong. To commit acts of abuse, the abuser would have to be a person without integrity; the abuser would have to be a coward, would have to be a bully, with all that entails, before he or she, given trust over a child or another adult, would choose to victimize.

Knowing this, we never have to listen to them again. Look into their eyes, instead. Is what lives in the abuser's eyes when they speak words of hatred valid? Could it ever be valid, given what we know now, as adults, about anger and judging and naming and rage?

No.

They have nothing valid to tell you; nothing in all those times you were abused meant anything but the meaning it had, to you.

And the ultimate meaning there is the betrayal that happened between parent and child.

That is an important point.

How do we recover when recovery means we need to invalidate everything about the abuser? How could I invalidate all the good things that happened with that first therapist before the one bad thing?

How could I just let that go, when he meant so much to me at one time?

How could I hang on to my own integrity if I condemned everything to do with my mom or my sister or brothers, when there is so much about each of them that is admirable?

That is an important distinction, too.

We need to sail our crafts with skill, not just blindly take off in them, trusting the same fate that left us broken and abused and shame laden in the first place will take us anywhere we would want to go.

We are, indeed, Captains of our own ships; there is a wild kind of integrity in being pirates, a kind of courage. Lil posted for us the true story of the woman pirate. In fact, she was a brave, refined woman with courage and integrity depending on who was being asked about her motivations.

That's us, too.

Maybe, that is where we have been able to hold strong for one another, here. As each has told her story, one of the others of us will have seen through to the heart of the one suffering, today.

***

My mom...I don't know how they keep seeing themselves as all powerful, or why they would want to. As each of us matures, one of the most important things we learn is that we all make mistakes, and that we all get to make mistakes. We make mistakes because we have courage, and because we push envelopes and take risks and try new things and new ways of doing and seeing things.

And sometimes, we lose.

But most times, we win.

So...how is it that abusers never, ever, admit a mistake? Think about it. They are always right. They know everything or at least, they know everything more than their chosen victims and that's how they want it. We come out of abusive environments feeling that our mistakes are game changers, are deal breakers, are the last chance and now we will be abandoned.

And then we are.

And in the past, the shame of that abandonment, the certainty that I would be abandoned again, never once left me.

Interesting then that, having been broken and brought up to fear abandonment, it is my mother ~ my abuser then, and now ~ who leads the charge to abandon me and the charge to bring me back, but only on her terms.

So, there is a game there that I will figure out one day, but not today. I...my mom's motivations, her hatred or love for me, matter less than they did, once. I do love my mom. That has nothing to do with her. Why would I not, now that I have my own perspective, now that I know those terrible things I have always believed true of me were not my burden, but hers...why would I not love the good things about her?

And they were terrible, deeply shaming things, those things that happened to us. We minimize. We say things like: I lived. (How many times have I posted that very phrase.) But the reality is that if we look also at the things, at the ways of being and seeing that would have taught us strengthening, positive self image...then we can see where our abusers fell short.

And supply those things for ourselves.

***

If there is wrongness, I no longer wonder, with a kind of sick fascination, what it is about me, what thing it is that is so wrong and so dark and so overwhelmingly frightening that I am left abandoned and bereft over and over again.

That thing, that darkness that is shame, that is what I have learned to seek, and hear and heal. It feels familiar to me now, to remain present for the full taste of it and to ~ like we were posting the other day, to pull myself up the fishing line and pull the hunter into the water with me.

Once and for all.

This is the memory of abandoned. One of them. There are many. One of the themes of abandoned is that the abuser will have taught us, will have known that a child will feel overwhelming fear and shame and will have taught us on purpose, as my mother did, that only she can save us or can let us be killed. I understand this sounds melodramatic. A child knows only the emotional taste of what the abuser intends. There is a difference between what the abuser can actually do to us and the darkness the abuser celebrates in his or her head.

Abusers are abusers. They do not think like us. They think eyeless things. They actually do. Like listening to some f**** up internal radio station. I think they do try to do the right things. Of course they do. We all do. It must be very hard for them to know the things they have done. That must be why they hate us, and why they have to keep hating us and believing we are nothing.

Because we saw what they did.

We saw, and we knew it was wrong and so did they.

There is something important here. In places where things we would consider abusive are the norm, the child is neither frightened nor scarred by the shame of it. They may lust after revenge, they may become heartlessly cruel themselves, but they are not done in by shame in the sense that they believe themselves inept. We are targeted by the abuser's own sense that what they are doing is wrong and the rationalizations they employ to justify what they routinely do. It is that justification, that certainty that we deserve what they need to do, that we face down and bring justice to in our changed perspectives about what has happened to us. It isn't the word or the act, but that we believe the filth in them was unavoidably called by something the matter with us. When we are raised like we were, that is the awful true thing we carry around.

***

The other thing I know is that, as grandiosity is the other side of that coin of shame, we can follow that feeling too to the core hurt and have it and heal it.

When we become conscious of either grandiosity or shame, then we have a clue, and can follow it up or down the line to have a look at it in the daylight.

We will feel ugly.

That is okay.

Mistakes are okay.

Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
So...how is it that abusers never, ever, admit a mistake? Think about it. They are always right. They know everything or at least, they know everything more than their chosen victims and that's how they want it. We come out of abusive environments feeling that our mistakes are game changers, are deal breakers, are the last chance and now we will be abandoned.
Cedar, this is resonating with me.

Never once did my mother apologize to me for anything.

Neither once did my sister blame herself for some of her mean actions. Nope. Every cut off was 100% because of ME. That should have been a clue that she was even more damaged than I was. She can't see herself. She cheats.
I wonder if she ever acknowledged to my brother how baldly she abused him and, if so, how on earth she worded an apology in a way that he'd accept her derision of his illness making him look, well, sick.

My father I love, but he does not apologize either.

I feel like I am t he one always apologizing or was that one, even when I didn't know what I'd done that was so wrong.

It must be nice to be so perfect...lol.

Or to paint somebody else as entirely black to make yourself feel better.

Cedar, I'm so happy you are doing so well. I am too. I am nowhere near the despair I was at when my sister did her LAST cutoff. I am relieved. I am free.

WE ARE FREE.

Free of those who don't deserve to be in our lives. Free not to have their voices in our heads telling us how baaaad we are and how we did them wrong and they didn't do one thing to us...ever.

I hearby declare 2015 Independence Year!!!! Copa, I hope you join us soon. You are making good progress. And all of you readers and sometime posters, same here. Here's to us!!!!:wine:


This is to our abusers ;) :villagewrong:
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I was reading Lil's update and wondering:

Is there really any family that gets along well most of the time? Are there always problems? The more siblings the more problems?

I know our families were worse than most, but I am starting to wonder about ALL families. Seems like families equal drama, even where the parents are loving. There is always....something. Or am I just being cynical again?
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Seems like families equal drama, even where the parents are loving. There is always....something. Or am I just being cynical again?
You are being cynical.

I know real families - huge extended-network families - where pretty much everybody gets along, including in-laws. Families where the grandparents had 7 kids, and now there's 30+ grandkids who are married with kids... and they get together on a regular basis, in various sized groups and across generations. And they don't understand that not all families are that close or supportive. (much less crazy)

But... I wouldn't guess that kind of family to even be half the population.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
A while back she accused me of going "scorched earth" on her, although nobody here or anywhere has a clue who she is. Today I see she posted an updated to her original post so she still considers this scorched earth (sigh).

What does that mean, SWOT? Scorched earth in like, no going back to the old patterns of behavior that she was so comfortable with and that cost you your integrity and peace of mind?

Good.

It was very painful for you to get to this place where you are comfortable with the decisions you've made regarding your sister. Once we see those underlying patterns and put most of the pieces together about why things are the way they are ~ and especially, once we see that each of our sisters seem to see us in the same kinds of negative ways, we let go of trying to rebuild something that never existed in the first place.

It isn't that I don't wish I had a sister.

It isn't that you don't wish you had a sister.

It's that we never had a sister.

A sister is someone who loves us and has our back and defends us and spends close time with us because they miss us when we are apart.

The kinds of sisters we would like in our lives don't do the things our DNA sisters have repeatedly done.

They don't, SWOT.

Could your sister trying to elicit sympathy from the people on her site?

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Sister Joan Chittister, O.S.B. *Benedictine Order

"I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
There is always....something. Or am I just being cynical again?

I think most families operate around a core of goodwill.

I think there is goodwill at the core of Lil and Jabber's family.

Though crisis situations arose, the family seems to have addressed the issues ~ all of them ~ and seem to be coming through this with the ability to understand and forgive one another.

No one cut anyone off.

They did not stop talking or ignore the situation or choose sides though they could have.

It seems that the mother spoke with each of her children and brought the family together around what had happened.

It seems to me that there will be dramas and conflicts and things to work our ways through in any family. Good families have good hearted cores and core values. D H family are up in each other's faces all the time. But the underlying value for D H family is to be together whenever they can. In my family, the underlying value ~ I don't know.

They are just so darn mean, over time and every time and not just to me. It's a pattern for us that I see spinning out from whatever happened to, or is not right with, my mom.

When I wonder how it is I could think things like that, I remember that most moms do not routinely abuse their kids verbally, emotionally, or physically.

Mine did.

So, I am seeing and perceiving correctly. That's pretty important to me ~ to be able to believe myself about how and why my family is different than other families. I need to know, as clearly as I can anyway, why this is happening, and that my response is correct.

You do too, SWOT.

So yes, Thing One's recent shenanigans have probably left you feeling cynical. She is abusing you again. Just on the off chance that you would read that, she is abusing you, again. She might have written something beautiful for you, about you. But she picked to hurt you, instead. You posted once that, though you were not thinking in the old patterns, and were seeing yourself so differently and in such a healthier way, you believed you were still in your sister's head. If she is still posting against you, she is doing it hoping you will read it. In her head, you are reading what she writes with the same fascination she reads, here.

If we are going to cheat SWOT, we have to learn to expect to see only that they have not changed. When we do not do what they want, they hate us more openly and cry their eyes out because we are victimizing them by refusing to participate in their ongoing victimization of us.

That is how crazy our FOO are.

I'm sorry, SWOT.

But...you did cheat.

Cedar
 

nerfherder

Active Member
Wow, Nerf, I am in awe. I hope your Mother did a oral history, like with the project Spielberg has. Your mother sounds like an absolutely marvelous and unique person.

Do you speak/understand Yiddish? I grew up around the language but they spoke in Yiddish to exclude me.
Cedar, the past few years he has been on CNN, too.

Remember that until you mentioned D H looked like I pirate, I imagined your D H as looking like Anthony Bourdain. Anthony Bourdain looks like a Roman god not like a pirate.

However obnoxious he may be, he has made himself into a thoughtful and serious person, at least in his work. As far as selecting him for book club, from all I have heard the book is extremely raunchy.

1. Yes, Mom did her thing for the Spielberg Project. Years ago, she was among the first speakers to be recorded.

2. Yiddish. I am fluent but rusty. It was mine and my brother's first language, and was the house language for years. In our Hebrew school, the teachers spoke Yiddish to avoid the kids knowing what they said - until they learned my brother and I knew what they were saying. They then switched to Hebrew. :) My family spoke Polish and cursed in Polish and Russian to avoid the "little pitchers" problem. I can't speak either of those languages but I can cuss a blue streak. :)

Last, I wouldn't call the book raunchy, but he doesn't hold back either. It's not too different from what goes on in nearly any restaurant kitchen. :) I haven't pulled a knife on anyone, but my early years bussing tables in Atlantic City were... Interesting. :)
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that there will be dramas and conflicts and things to work our ways through in any family. Good families have good hearted cores and core values. D H family are up in each other's faces all the time. But the underlying value for D H family is to be together whenever they can. In my family, the underlying value ~ I don't know.

They are just so darn mean, over time and every time and not just to me. It's a pattern for us that I see spinning out from whatever happened to, or is not right with, my mom.

When I wonder how it is I could think things like that, I remember that most moms do not routinely abuse their kids verbally, emotionally, or physically.
Thank you, Cedar. I think you're right. It's the intent that is so important. Because it was so much a part of my life with anyone from my FOO, it is, to me, really weird to think of a family that does not abuse at least one or two of it's members. Sometimes, like with me, it was just verbal, but bad enough for me to have to live the words over and over again. Sometimes it is verbally and physically, sometimes just physically, sometimes, sexually, sometimes all three.

I'd never heard of a family meeting until I got married. I can only imagine us sitting around trying to have a family meeting, with all the kids having a say, and the father or mother calmly talking about something. That could never hvae worked in my FOO. My parents could never have facilitated it as neither communicates well and my mother did not have kind intent. It takes a strong head of household to do something like that to bring the family together. Family was not talked about with respect in my FOO. My mother bashed my father's family. Maybe because I was with my mother the most, I believed that his family was horrible. My father bashed my mothers family. While I agree her family (small as it was) was pretty awful, I did love my grandmother a lot and she was kind to me, even if not to all. I didn't need to hear him bashing somebody I loved.

Why could they just have gotten along? In seventeen years of marriage to my ex, never once did I witness an altercation of any consequence in his FOO. Gossip didn't happen. Badmouthing didn't happen. I was never comfortable there, but that was truly me and how little I felt about myself and how hard it was for me to feel included. It wasn't t hem. My sister-in-law had a loving family too. A little more gossipy than the ex's smaller family, but it was a huge family and when somebody was down, the entire family would unite to be of support.

I remember one Christmas I was hiding in the corner of the living room, like I always did in crowds, while at my sister-in-law's beautiful home with it's nicely decorated ten foot tree. Everyone was laughing and at ease. I don't know why my sister-in-law's father said this, but he did. He said something that almost made me cry because I thought it was so sweet. Neither of my parents would ever had said anything like it.

"Why wouldn't I make the long drive up to see my child? No distance is too far!"

Her mother was a lovebug. Unlike my mother-in-law who was calm, quiet and regal, she was jolly, and loud and full of jokes and had good will and included everyone, even little me in my corner. The siblings fought and made up. They were proud of one another. There was some normal jealousy. The love overtook all else. The middle sibling, a girl, was a bit of a problem child in her day, but the family adored her and did not call her names and loved on her and her kids the same as the more well behaved siblings. It was so different to me. It was like a Hallmark painting.

So, Cedar, I think you are right. The people in charge of us, our parents and other elders, did not know how to love unconditionally, empower the family children or speak without sting and they definitely did not divide and conquer. They believed family was everything and, in their families, it was. Nobody was alone in hard times. All hostilities and petty fights were ended when a family member was in trouble.

I also knew, again through my ex, one part of his family that looked good and imploded at the end, although it was a quiet but very thorough implosion with one brother moving out of state to get away and the other two not talking to him or each other. It had to do with one of the parent's substance abuse, I understand. I do not know the entire story. I just know it is. They tried to be that family with strong parents, but it's hard to function as a strong parent if you have addiction issues, the downfall there.

I have resolved a lot just in this short exchange, Cedar, so thank you very much.

It's the intent.

I will remember that.

by the way, glad you liked the picture. I TOLD you I was tiny!!! LOL! Cedar, you are regal, like a queen. So beautiful is such a refined way. I am so jealous. I could never be refined. Ever!!!!!

Hugs and big thanks for setting me straight on the differences between normal family strife that gets resolved and the torn apart dysfunction we lived in. To this day I have never met my father's side of the family. I find that sad. I don't believe they were baaaaaad.

I had two cousins that I remember with a golden child and baaaaaad child too. I was the only one probably old enough to remember. There was my aunt and she was a single mother. I know very little about how their family life went, but I remember both my grandmother and mother telling me that Cousin Oldest was a doll and so sweet and Cousin Youngest was a "brat." This was after a day we spent together. I remember Cousin Second pouting a lot and crying, a lot like I did. She wanted candy. She ended up getting the candy. She was a brat. I remember, further down the road, that Cousin Second remained scapegoat, possibly not by her mother, but by the rest of the family. I didn't pay much attention because I hardly knew Cousin Youngest and Cousin Oldest. Cousin Youngest eventually had nothing to do with anyone in the family and I believe, but am not sure, if she was on again/off again with Cousin Oldest.

The few times I have seen Cousin Youngest since then, she has been nice and has a loving husband and two kids in college.

I wish I could remember more about the bad cousin/good cousin dynamic because it was definitely there, but I can't. Interesting that another member of THAT side of the family had the good/bad thang going on. I well remember that Cousin Oldest was another Golden Child.

Ok, babbled enough.
Later!!!!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
What does that mean, SWOT? Scorched earth in like, no going back to the old patterns of behavior that she was so comfortable with and that cost you your integrity and peace of mind?
I believe "sorched earth" means I bash her with lies about her to everybody. Two problems with that.

1/ Nobody here knows who I am, let alone her.
2/ I'm not trying to in any way contact anybody she knows.

Scorched earth would be if I contacted people she knew and told them the secrets she had told me about them or made up secrets to get them angry at her. Or if I still usedFB, doing it through that. But I'm not. I don't.

Fact: I started doing this with you, Cedar, to heal. I had no idea Sis knew I was posting here, but to get the story out of my system, naturally I have to talk about, in very non-identifying terms, everybody in my family who hurt me. It doesn't matter if she agrees that they hurt me, THEY HURT ME. And this is my healing spot and she never had to read it.

To be totally honest, I do not know if she still reads this because I just saw that she updated her post about Scorched Earth and did not read the contents of the post. It makes me lean toward thinking she is, but she could just see that I'm still posting about my family, in the way that I experienced them.

Anyhow, that is scorched earth. When George Bush was running for President (I believe it was Bush) it came out that he was going to go Scorched Earth on his opponent to win the Presidency. But the difference her is that he used names and identifying factors.

I don't think this is wrong and if she does, well, I think a lot of what she did is wrong too. She doesn't have to agree or listen to me and vice versa. She did very much to hurt me and to try to hurt me. I am doing this to heal myself.
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
If we are going to cheat SWOT, we have to learn to expect to see only that they have not changed. When we do not do what they want, they hate us more openly and cry their eyes out because we are victimizing them by refusing to participate in their ongoing victimization of us.
You're right. It's done in anger and in no way for them to heal. If she wished to heal from abuse, and felt I abused her, ok. But she is still with her abusive boyfriend, which means she is just trying to get back at me personally and not cleanse her life of toxic people. Also, she brought my brother here. She didn't have to do that. Maybe that caused issues for her. He does not know how hateful she was about him. I'm sure she never told him the truth. I don't think he is shallow enough to read this, but if he is, that's on her. She told him about this place.

I don't know or care. I'lm not even afraid to see the Things at my Dad's funeral (may be live another ten years). I will ignore them, let them take over the doing of the funeral, and honor my father, in my head in my own way. And if they rent a limousine, I will not sit with them and I will go home as soon as it is over. But I'm not afraid of them anymore. What was wrong with me? I'll be surrounded by loved ones and will not ever see them again (the Things) after that day. Why did they EVER scare me? I guess I was thinking about going into the fire myself, forgetting that my husband and children will be there. I am not alone and my family members can be quite protective of me.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
To those of us enmeshed with an abusive parent, the attraction that brings trust and eventual friendship would feel like some version of enmeshment.
What feels familiar is wrong from the beginning. Betrayal would be the norm.
I sought out versions of my mother. Almost always small, dark haired, self-centered, affluent women, who were well-dressed, confident, and had nice homes. Usually they were confident and competent hostesses.

I got some sense of security and acceptance and being cared for by being invited to their homes and enjoying their largesse. All of these things I was unable to provide for myself, for a long, long time. Because I did not feel I deserved it for myself. I waited until it was offered, in a manner that it could always be withdrawn.

I made it so that security and comfort for me, was always subject to the whim of another woman, and therefore withheld. I was always the disadvantaged and wanting one.

I gave these women the superior position. Needless to say, they would have demanded it. But I offered it first.
A toxic mix of disparagement, ridicule, flattery, manipulative gossip, sly taint of fish in the mouth hatred and power over. That was all I knew about being a person.
And yet you chose as a husband a man who has not one of these qualities. Nor would he tolerate or be influenced by same. You chose an incorruptible man. How was that Cedar?
The feeling with my mom was like I was in suspended animation; always more attuned to her emotional state than my own.
Yes, Cedar. Me too. I think I was always afraid. My Mother was very, very powerful. I was very controlled by her. Even though I fought it. Rebelled. I was always controlled.
It is that predators ~ those who assuage their own woundings by proving, again and again, that someone else (eventually, it will be you) victimized them in spite of, or because of, their wonderfulness and generosity and kindness and etc. It always comes down to that they have no choice but to do whatever the thing that they always do, to everyone, is.
And this is my sister.
"I see you."

That is the essential crime, right? That is the thing the abuser cannot face. Who he or she is, really.
I don't know. My sister, yes. But she is so defended, I cannot imagine that she would ever allow herself to be revealed.

My Mother, no. Talk about solid steel implements. She had no problem what so ever in being the heavy. Costs of war. That is how she would see it. Necessary casualties. And go ahead and bury you, forgetting about the flag.
the abuser ...will have taught us on purpose, as my mother did, that only she can save us or can let us be killed.
About noon I went by where my son is staying to take him to the lab again to try again for his blood work (try 3). Both of them still sleeping or close to it. My son on the floor, the lady in the bed. My son to his credit did get up and go with me.

He saw the look of concern that came to my face involuntarily, which he interpreted as disapproval of the lady with whom he is living. I explained it was fear. At the way he was living.

I do not think the lady is using drugs. But it appears all she does is stay in bed and watch TV. OK. All I do is listen to the radio and stay on the computer in bed, but it does not seem the same. At least I want to get up.

What kind of a life is it for my son? To live on the floor, without a key. No goals. No social life. Nothing productive. With a 50 ish recovering meth addict that spends her life in bed. He says she is in school. That is something. I acknowledge that is good. She is not the issue. He is.

On the way to the lab I made small talk. Mistake. I mentioned I had been googling research on Hep B and saw that there are trials in Australia where combining a cancer drug with an antiviral results in 100 percent of patients serio-converting, cured. There is other positive work being done throughout the world.

Immediately my son glommed onto the word drug, in cancer drug. I meant cancer medication, SON. Medicine, like Dolly (the Boxer) took for her cancer, trying to soften that offending word.

So he started perseverating about side effects of drugs. And then I realized. He might be so impaired or stupid to refuse a cure to a disease that could be killing him right now.

The topic turned to addiction. He disparaged somebody, I think, somebody addicted. And the mental giant that I am said something like, you have an addiction, son, too. (I must say that the lady does not allow him to use marijuana or be under its effects. That I have seen, he has not used marijuana. Although I did have the fear of use, when he had locked himself in the bedroom.)

SON: What? To what? What addiction do I have?

Marijuana.

SON: You do not understand anything. Raging. Slamming the car door. Storming away from the lab. (I drove a little bit and asked if he wanted a ride back. No answer.)

No blood work. This is the second time at the lab without getting blood work. Third time if you count the BIG CITY.

I am getting it, that he does not want treatment. That is the reality that I am having to accept.

I found M where he was working. SON called M's phone. From inside my house. He had walked to my house. Let himself in an unlocked door (M's fault). Called M to come for him for a ride home. Easily walkable. M went and drove him. He wanted to avoid more problems.

Later that evening SON called me. SON says he wants to go no contact, without using those words.

My preference would be to talk even infrequently, I told him. So that I know you are OK.

No, said son.

I understand. I love you. Goodbye.

I believe my son feels that I am his abuser.

I have been on this quest with my son. I see it is trying to get him to save his life. He thinks I am imposing my will and taking away his autonomy and dis-respecting his capacity to decide for himself.

I believe that the more I push to save him...the more he opposes and undermines me. Even if it is to save his life.

I am beginning to believe that my son does not experience my intervention as love. He feels it as abuse.

I believe he feels he deserves to live and die just exactly as he chooses. To him, his autonomy is more important than his life. I am beginning to understand. I am almost at the point of accepting his terms.

I am beginning to accept that this is the right thing for me, too.

His life is not more important than mine.

This is what I told my mother 8 months before she died: Your life is not more important than mine.

It was a horrible thing to say, and in the two years and a half since then I have nearly died with the shame of it.

I will say it again. And I know that this is an even greater crime.

My life is as important as my son's.

If I dedicate myself to controlling my son's medical care, which is the longest of long shots: going to court, trying to declare him incompetent. Forcing treatment. Supervising him. Seeing if he has swallowed the medicine or hiring somebody to do the same.

I will never win. It will never work. Even in prisons where they have thousands of people working in a controlled environment, they cannot win in a battle such as this. And, as importantly, I will have taken away my son's life in order to save it. And I will likely give up my own life trying.

I must face it. He might not want to live. If he does, he needs to find a way to save himself. If he does not want to live, he himself must find a reason to do so. I cannot do it for him.

I must let my son go. To not do so, is to abuse him, in his eyes, and possibly my own. To not let my son go is to allow myself to be abused by him. There is never a time now when he does not.

I am losing. I am very tired. I will keep losing. The more I go on, the more I will lose. I will lose myself. Am I really helping him? He does not think so.

My life is as important as my son's.
 
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SeekingStrength

Well-Known Member
So. Book Club last night. The daughter of the hostess was home. About 24. Ballet classes since she was a little girl, like my daughter. This young woman was beautiful, talented, accomplished, charming. The hostess has two other children, boys; equally productive and talented and successful. And to see the stability and the cleanliness and oh, I don't know ~ the sense of legitimacy of the mother role for this woman I have known for something like fifteen or eighteen years just hit me so hard. I realize I am especially raw from the intensity of the FOO trip. But all at once, I could see all the good things D H and I do not have now, and certainly did not have when our kids were that age.


and so, I was out of town and read this on my phone and my fat fingers do not work well with my old phone.

but, I read your posts more than once. because, your book club post spoke to me. Comparing yourself with others, yada yada = stupid. It makes so much darn sense and I have done it a zillion times.

This conversation has moved on, but I am home now and my fat fingers fit the laptop better and I just wanted you to know that I totally get your book club experience.

Did you know : “Comparison is the death of joy.”Mark Twain

I figured you did.

So do I.

But, your post helped center me a bit. Thanks.

Stepford Children can be creepy, too.

Hugs,
SS
 
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